Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696 Filed 06/04/19 Page 1 of 3 6034 PageID #: WILLIAM P. BARR Attorney General ROBERT S. BREWER, JR. United States Attorney MICHAEL G. WHEAT, CBN 118598 JOSEPH J.M. ORABONA, CBN 223317 JANAKI S. GANDHI, CBN 272246 COLIN M. MCDONALD, CBN 286561 Special Attorneys to the Attorney General United States Attorney’s Office 880 Front Street, Room 6293 San Diego, CA 92101 Tel: 619-546-8437/6695/8817/9144 Email: michael.wheat@usdoj.gov Attorneys for the United States UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF HAWAII Case No. 17CR0582-JMS-RLP UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff, NOTICE OF LODGMENT OF DEPOSITION TESTIMONY v. KATHERINE P. KEALOHA (1), LOUIS M. KEALOHA (2), DEREK WAYNE HAHN (3), and MINH-HUNG NGUYEN (4), Defendants. Comes now the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, by and through its counsel, William P. Barr, United States Attorney General, Robert S. Brewer, Jr., United States Attorney, Michael G. Wheat, Joseph J.M, Orabona, Janaki S. Gandhi, and Colin M. McDonald, Special Attorneys to the Attorney General, and hereby files Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696 Filed 06/04/19 Page 2 of 3 6035 PageID #: the Florence Puana Deposition Transcript which reflects the portions of deposition ordered to be played to the jury. See Exhibit A. Dated: June 4, 2019 WILLIAM P. BARR United States Attorney General ROBERT S. BREWER, JR. United States Attorney /s/ Colin M. McDonald MICHAEL G. WHEAT JOSEPH J.M. ORABONA JANAKI S. GANDHI COLIN M. MCDONALD Special Attorneys to the Attorney General 2 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696 Filed 06/04/19 Page 3 of 3 6036 PageID #: UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF HAWAII Case No. CR 17-00582-JMS-RLP UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE Plaintiff, v. KATHERINE P. KEALOHA (1), et al., Defendants. IT IS HEREBY CERTIFIED that: I, Colin M. McDonald, am a citizen of the United States and am at least eighteen years of age. My business address is 880 Front Street, Room 6293, San Diego, CA 92101-8893. I am not a party to the above-entitled action. I have caused service of the foregoing on all parties in this case by electronically filing the foregoing with the Clerk of the District Court using its ECF System, which electronically notifies them. I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed on June 4, 2019. /s/ Colin M. McDonald COLIN M. MCDONALD 3 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 1 of 64 6037 PageID #: EXHIBIT A TRANSCRIPT OF ADMITTED PORTIONS OF FLORENCE PUANA DEPOSITION VIDEO, DATED APRIL 30, 2019 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 2 of 64 6038 PageID #: Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) Puana, Florence (Vol. 01) - 04/30/2019 1 CLIP (RUNNING 03:33:15.703) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the deposition ... JMS-FLORENCE PUANA EXCISED 31 SEGMENTS (RUNNING 03:33:15.703) 1. PAGE 7:01 TO 9:09 (RUNNING 00:02:19.657) 00007:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00008:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00009:01 02 03 04 05 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the deposition of Florence Puana in the matter of United States of America versus Katherine Kealoha, et al. We are located at office of the U.S. Marshals Service, 300 Ala Moana Boulevard, Honolulu, Hawaii. My name is Greg Wills, video specialist for Certified Legal Video Services. Will the counsel please state your names. MR. McDONALD: Colin McDonald for the United States. I'm also joined by Assistant United States Attorney Joseph Orabona, Michael Wheat. And also present for the United States are FBI Supervisory Special Agent Matthew McDonald, FBI Special Agents Nicole Vallieres and Laura Salazar and FBI Forensic Accountant Laurice Otsuka. If counsel for the defense could please state their names for the record at this time. MS. KAGIWADA: Good morning. Cynthia Kagiwada on behalf of Katherine Kealoha. Ms. Kealoha is also present with me. MR. BARBEE: Rustam Barbee, attorney with Louis Kealoha. He's present. MR. BERVAR: Birney Bervar on behalf of Derek Hahn, who is present. MR. HIRONAKA: Randy Hironaka on behalf of Bobby Nguyen. He is present as well. MR. ISAACSON: Lars Isaacson for Gordon Shiraishi, who is also present. MR. McDONALD: And, sir, if you could also announce your presence. MR. QUAN: Anthony Quan, associate to Cynthia Kagiwada. MR. McDONALD: Thank you. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Today is April 30th, 2019. We are on the record at 9:27 a.m. Will the court reporter please swear in the deponent. FLORENCE PUANA, the witness hereinbefore named, being first duly cautioned and sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified under oath as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Good morning. Could you please state your name for the record. A. My name is Florence Puana. Q. Mrs. Puana, thank you for being with us and for taking the time to be with us today. A. You're welcome. Q. I'm Colin McDonald, an Assistant United States Attorney, and I'll begin the questioning today, and then once I'm finished with my questions, then the defense counsel will be able to have a chance to ask you some questions. Do you understand that? A. Yes, I do. page 1 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 3 of 64 6039 PageID #: Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 06 07 08 09 Q. Do you understand that you're here today to give testimony in the case of the United States versus Kealoha? A. Yes, I am. 2. PAGE 10:19 TO 17:09 (RUNNING 00:07:47.361) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00011:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00012:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00013:01 02 03 Q. Okay. How are you feeling today? A. A little nervous. Q. Sure. Are you -- are you on any medications currently? A. Just -- I am, but not anything that's -- it's over the counter. Q. Okay. Do they affect your ability to remember events at all in any way? A. No, nothing at all. Q. Okay. Do you have any questions for me about the deposition process? A. No. I'll just ask your -- answer your questions. Q. Thank you. Is there any reason why you can't give your best and most accurate testimony today? A. I don't -- I don't think so. Q. Okay. So let's start with some background. Let's talk a little bit about you, Mrs. Puana, okay? A. Yes. Q. All right. What is your date of birth? A. My -- I was born on August 24th, 1919. Q. And where did you grow up? A. In Makawao, Maui. Q. Where did you attend school? A. Makawao public school. Q. And how far did you go in school there? A. To the 8th grade. Q. Did you have any more formal education after the 8th grade? A. No, I taught myself. Q. How did you go about doing that? A. My teacher gave me the 9th grade books, and I taught myself with the help of my sisters. Q. Now at some point did you get married? A. Yes, I did. Q. What year did you get married? A. April 23rd, 1938. Q. And what was your husband's name? A. My husband's name was John Kenalio Puana, Jr. Q. And, Mrs. Puana, where do you currently live right now? A. 1015 Aoloa Place, Apartment 224, Kailua, Hawaii. Q. In Kailua? A. In Kailua. Q. I see, okay. And that's on Oahu? Is that on Oahu? A. It's in Oahu. Q. Got it. When did you move from Maui to Oahu? A. On June -- on 1941. Q. Mrs. Puana, do you have any children? A. Yes, I do. Q. How many? A. I have nine children, and I lost my firstborn on past January 1918 [sic]. Q. I'm very sorry. Is Gerard Puana your youngest? A. Yes, he is. Q. Did you raise all your children at home? page 2 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 4 of 64 6040 PageID #: Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00014:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00015:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 A. Yes, I did. Q. Was that a full-time job? A. It was, but I enjoyed it. Q. Do you have any grandchildren or great-grandchildren? A. I have great, great, great, great. Q. Three greats? A. Yes. Q. Wow. I'm going to show you what's been marked as Government's Exhibit 1-15. (Government Exhibit 1-15 offered.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Do you recognize the people in that photograph? A. Yes, I do. Q. Who are they? A. That -- that is my great-granddaughter Maile Louise and her husband, Bobby Nguyen. Q. Bobby Nguyen? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So these two people were married? A. Yes, they were married. Q. Okay. MR. McDONALD: Government would move to admit Government's Exhibit 1-15 into evidence at this time. (Move to admit Government Exhibit 1-15.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Do you know someone named Katherine Kealoha? A. Yes, I do. Q. Who is she? A. She is my granddaughter. Q. Mrs. Puana, I'm showing you what's been marked as Government's Exhibit 1-18. (Government Exhibit 1-18 offered.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Do you recognize the people in this photograph? A. That is my granddaughter Kathy Kealoha and her husband, Police Chief Louie Kealoha. MR. McDONALD: At this time the Government moves for the admission of Government's Exhibit 1-18. MR. BARBEE: Objection. Rule 403. If you're going to do an identification, there's better ways to do it today, reflecting who's present in the room. MR. McDONALD: Your objection is noted. I would just note if there could be, please, no speaking objections during today's deposition. MR. BARBEE: Rule 403, prejudice outweighs probative value. MR. McDONALD: Thank you. The objection is noted. (Move to admit Government Exhibit 1-18.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Mrs. Puana, what did Louie Kealoha do for work? A. He is the police chief. Q. And -A. He was the police chief. Q. And what did Katherine do for work? A. She was -- she was my attorney. Q. Okay. Did she work as an attorney for other people as well? A. Yes, she did. page 3 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 5 of 64 6041 PageID #: Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 20 21 22 23 24 25 00016:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00017:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 Q. A. Q. A. Q. Did Katherine go to school to be an attorney? Yes, she did. She went to -Let me ask you this --- Chaminade. To Chaminade, okay. Now, did you have a close relationship with Katherine as she was growing up? A. Yes, I did. Q. How would you describe your relationship? A. She was a loving, loving gentle person. And I trusted her. Q. Mrs. Puana, after your children were raised, did you work outside of the home? A. Yes, I did. Q. Where did you work? A. I worked at Maunalani Hospital, and then I worked at Star of the Sea church for 30 -- 32 years. Q. And when did you stop working there? A. I was 38. Q. You worked there for 32 years? A. Yes, I worked for 32 years. Q. Okay. I'd like to talk to you now about your family home on Nioi Place, okay? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Did you and your family live in a home on Nioi Place? A. Yes, 3934 Nioi Place. Q. When, approximately, did you move to that house? A. In -- it's been so long. I think it was in 19 -- really, I can't remember right now. Q. Did you live in that home for a long time? A. Yes, I did. Q. Did you raise your children in that home? A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. Not -- not all of them, but when I brought my son, Mathias Kanoa from the hospital, I brought him to my home, and he is like -- I'd say he's -- I can't remember his... 3. PAGE 17:15 TO 21:07 (RUNNING 00:05:39.760) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00018:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Who built your Nioi Place home? A. My husband, who was -- he was a master plumber and his associates. He worked with Teruya Electric and Jack Akimoto, who was the construction. So all three of them worked in my home, and they worked in other homes for Joe Powell and other people. Q. Okay. A. Those are the ones that built my home. Q. Okay, thank you. Do you still live in that home? A. No, I don't. Q. Why not? A. Because I lost my home through the reverse mortgage, and I moved because I decided that -- when I finally got the bills, they were outrageous and I said I wanted to sell my home and I did. Q. So you mentioned a reverse mortgage. So let's talk about that some, okay? A. Okay. Q. In October of 2009, around there, did you get a reverse mortgage on your Nioi Place home? A. Yes, I did. Q. What is your understanding of how a reverse page 4 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 6 of 64 6042 PageID #: Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00019:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00020:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00021:01 02 03 04 mortgage works? A. Well, I had a call from someone in the mainland, and they told me that I could live there as long as I live, and that's about all that I really understood. There was no one to talk to me about it and how to go about it. Q. Now, did you -- did you come up with the idea of getting the reverse mortgage? A. Yes, I did. Q. Was it your idea or was it someone else's idea? A. No, it was mine because I wanted -- I wanted to get it for my son Gerard because he helped me a lot after my husband died, and -- and he really loved that home because his son was born in that home, so... Q. So the purpose of getting the reverse mortgage was to help Gerard purchase a home for himself? A. And Katherine told me that she could help me to help Gerard get the condominium if I would get her the amount of money and she would pay off the reverse mortgage and she would take care of her bills and refinance her home, but she promised me she paid off the -- she would pay off the reverse mortgage. Q. Okay. So I want to take that maybe one step at a time, okay? A. Okay. Q. So who came to you with the idea of the reverse mortgage? A. Katherine did. Q. Okay. And is that Katherine Kealoha? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, when she came to you with the idea of the reverse mortgage, did you know what a reverse mortgage was at that point in time? A. No, I did not. Q. What did she say to you about a reverse mortgage? A. She said that, what I said, she would -- if I would get her the money, she would get the money that she needed for the reverse mortgage and to refinance her home and pay off her bills, that she could do that by helping me to get Gerard the apartment -- the reverse -- the apartment. Q. Okay. And did that plan make sense to you? A. Well, it did at first because she promised that she would help me and I -- I believed her. And I said, okay, because my son Gerard would not sign the paper because he had eight siblings and he thought it was not -- wasn't fair for him to sign that paper. So it took me some time and -- and finally I decided I wanted to help him, because he was the one that really helped me a lot after my husband died, and so I did that. I signed the paper. Q. Okay. Did Katherine Kealoha tell you how the reverse mortgage would be paid off? A. She said she would pay off the reverse mortgage and then Gerard would pay her monthly for the remaining. Q. Okay. And did Katherine Kealoha say how long it would take for her to pay off the mortgage? A. She said it would take three months, not more than six months. Q. Did you believe her? A. Yes, I did. Q. Why did you believe her? A. Because I did not know anything about the page 5 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 7 of 64 6043 PageID #: Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 05 06 07 reverse mortgage or how it worked. Q. Was she also your granddaughter? A. Yes, she was. 4. PAGE 21:16 TO 25:22 (RUNNING 00:05:14.153) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00022:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00023:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00024:01 Mrs. Puana, if you knew that the reverse mortgage was not going to be paid off in three to six months, would you have agreed to sign the reverse mortgage? A. No, I would not. Q. Why not? A. Because I wouldn't know how -- how it worked. At the beginning I heard that someone called from mainland and they talked to me and they told me all of these things about reverse mortgage, and I was so confused. And so finally I said I would trust my granddaughter and sign it. Q. Who did you -- who were you relying on to give you confidence to say yes to the reverse mortgage? A. Katherine, because she -- she said she knew how it worked, and I only -- she said to trust her. She said, "Grandma, don't worry," she said, "I'm the attorney and I'll -- and you can trust me." Q. You mentioned that Katherine said that she was your attorney; is that right? A. Well, when she became my attorney. Q. Okay. So let's talk about that. A. Okay. Q. During the process of getting the reverse mortgage, did Katherine Kealoha become your attorney? A. Well, she brought me this paper, and she said, "I wanted -- I want you to sign this paper and have it checked -- have it notarized," and she said, "Then I can be your attorney and I can take care of the reverse mortgage." Q. I'm showing you, Mrs. Puana, what's marked as Government's Exhibit 1-1. (Government Exhibit 1-1 offered.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Is this that document that Katherine gave to you to be your attorney? A. The durable power of attorney, that's the one. Q. This is that document? A. Yes, it is. Q. And did you sign this document on the final page? A. Yes, that's my signature. Q. Okay. MR. McDONALD: The Government moves to admit Government's Exhibit 1-1 at this time. (Move to admit Government Exhibit 1-1.) THE WITNESS: 1-1. BY MR. McDONALD: Q. On what date, Mrs. Puana, on what date did you sign this document? I believe it's right above your signature on the third page. A. On 7th day of January 19th -Q. And then the date spills into the next line on the left. Is that 2009? Right here. 2009? A. Yes. Q. Thank you. So what was the purpose of this document? A. That was for her to be my attorney and to have the reverse mortgage. I signed for the reverse mortgage. Q. Okay, thank you. page 6 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 8 of 64 6044 PageID #: Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00025:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 I'm showing you what's marked as Government's Exhibit 1-2. (Government Exhibit 1-2 offered.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Does this have -- is this titled the "Second Amendment of the Florence M. Puana Trust"? Is that the title of this document? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you -- your signature is on the second page of this document? A. Yes, it is. Q. Okay. MR. McDONALD: The United States moves to admit Government's Exhibit 1-2 at this time. (Move to admit Government Exhibit 1-2.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Mrs. Puana, I'd like to talk to you now about your bank, okay? A. Yes. Q. What bank do you use? A. Honolulu Federal Credit Union. Q. Did you use Bank of Hawaii as your personal bank account? A. No, I did not. Q. During the course of getting the reverse mortgage, did Katherine Kealoha ask you to open a joint bank account? A. No, she didn't. She gave me this paper, and I said, "Now, Kathy, what am I signing this paper for?" And she said, "Grandma, I told you to trust me." She said, "This is for the reverse mortgage." So I signed it. Q. Showing you what's marked as Government's Exhibit 1-3. (Government Exhibit 1-3 marked.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Is this the paper that Katherine asked you to sign and that you signed? A. Yes. Q. And is your signature there in the middle of this page? A. Yes, it is. Q. Okay. MR. McDONALD: The Government moves to admit Government's Exhibit 1-3. (Move to admit Government Exhibit 1-3.) 5. PAGE 26:04 TO 27:19 (RUNNING 00:02:18.745) 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q. What, if anything, did Katherine tell you about this document? A. She said that if I sign that paper, that it would be for the reverse mortgage. Q. Okay. A. So that's the reason why I signed it. Q. Did you understand that this was opening a joint bank account? A. No, I did not. Q. Did you have your own personal bank account at the time when this was signed? A. Yes, I did. Q. Was there any reason why you couldn't use your own personal bank account? A. Well, I -- I didn't know how it worked, so I just trusted her and she said to trust her, so that's why I signed those papers. Q. Did Katherine ever give you any documentation page 7 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 9 of 64 6045 PageID #: Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 22 23 24 25 00027:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 about any bank account? A. No, she did not. Q. Let's talk now about the reverse mortgage finalizing, okay? A. Yes. Q. So in October of 2009 did the reverse mortgage finalize? A. It was at the Central Pacific Bank, I think. We went to Central Pacific loan bank and we had it finalized. And -Q. And how much money, approximately, did you get from the reverse mortgage? A. I did not get any money. Q. So you didn't ever see any of that money? A. No, I did not. Q. Okay. Did you obtain some money to then help Gerard purchase the condo? A. I didn't get any money because she kept telling me that the -- she said the home, she paid for the home, she paid for the reverse mortgage, and she would have the rest of the money for -- to refinance her home, and then Gerard and her would work out where Gerard would pay her monthly. 6. PAGE 28:04 TO 31:12 (RUNNING 00:05:36.024) 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00029:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. Okay. How much was the reverse mortgage? A. It was five -- I know it was five -- if I remember, five, seven, six. I remember those numbers, five, seven, six. Q. Was that 576,000? A. Yeah, I remember those -- that amount. Q. Can you not quite remember, Florence? A. Not -- not exactly. Q. That's okay. A. But I do remember the five, seven, six. Q. Okay. A. I really didn't know. Q. Would seeing the declaration that you have previously signed, would that help refresh your memory as to the amount from the reverse mortgage? A. Yes, I think. Q. Okay. I'm showing you what's been marked as Government's Exhibit 1-16 marked for identification as just 1 -- 1-16. (Government Exhibit 1-16 offered.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. And I'll direct your attention to paragraph 7, paragraph 7 of this document, go ahead and please read that and then when your memory is refreshed as to the amount, Mrs. Puana? A. In October of 2000 -MS. KAGIWADA: Objection. Q. So Missus -MS. KAGIWADA: Witness is reading. MR. McDONALD: Thank you. BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Mrs. Puana -A. Yes. Q. -- please read it, and then once you're done reading it, then look up, back up at me -A. Uh-huh. Q. -- and then if your memory is refreshed, then you can tell me how much the reverse mortgage was -A. Okay. Q. -- please, okay. A. Okay. Where is that now? 7, in October... 5 page 8 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 10 of 64 #: 6046 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 20 21 22 23 24 25 00030:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00031:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 hundred -- 5 hundred 34 thousand five -- no. $534,596.01. Q. Okay. So Mrs. Puana, does that -- does reading your declaration, does that refresh your memory? A. Yes. Q. And so how much was the reverse mortgage? A. 537,000 and 50 -Q. The cents are okay. That's okay. Thank you. Was Gerard able to purchase the condo? A. Well, he finally did and he kept -- he moved into that apartment. Q. Okay. A. He lived with me for a while and then he finally went to the apartment because the people wanted to move out, so he went there and he was paying the money. Q. To who? A. She -Q. To who? A. To the owner of the -- the home. Q. Okay. Where did the rest of the money from the reverse mortgage go? A. I don't know. It just came. When I finally got -- finally got my mail, I finally got my mail, came to my home, and when I saw all the interest that they paid every month, I decided to sell my home, because I wasn't getting my mail. Q. So after -- after the reverse mortgage finalized -A. Yes. Q. -- and Gerard got his condo, at that point in time what was your understanding for how the reverse mortgage was going to be paid off? A. I thought she would help Gerard, as she promised. Q. And who is "she"? A. Katherine. Q. And was she -- she had told you that she was going to pay off the reverse mortgage? A. She said she would pay off and we kept calling her and there was no way to get ahold of her. I tried and tried. 7. PAGE 31:20 TO 64:10 (RUNNING 00:49:38.267) 20 21 22 23 24 25 00032:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. Let me rephrase the question, Mrs. Puana. Did you receive statements from MetLife? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And what did those statements say? A. "This is not a bill." Q. Okay. I'm showing you what's marked as Government's Exhibit 1-19. (Government Exhibit 1-19 offered.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Are these the statements from MetLife? A. Well, I finally got it. And when I got that, when I got that, that's when I decided to sell my home. Q. So, Mrs. Puana, this -- is this the reverse mortgage statements that you got from -- from MetLife after the reverse mortgage closed? A. Yes. Q. Okay. MR. McDONALD: Government moves to admit Government's Exhibit 1-19 at this time. (Move to admit Government Exhibit 1-19.) page 9 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 11 of 64 #: 6047 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00033:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00034:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00035:01 02 03 04 05 06 MR. BARBEE: Actually, clarification, Counsel. That's the exhibit that came in yesterday in the email? MR. McDONALD: Correct. BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Mrs. Puana, directing your attention to the bottom of the page -A. Yes. Q. -- where it talks about the balance of the loan, okay? Was the balance on the loan going up or down? A. Up. It's going way up. Q. Now, after receiving these statements, did you seek to confirm with Katherine Kealoha that she was paying off the reverse mortgage? A. I couldn't get ahold of her. Q. Okay. Did you ever have any conversations with her about paying off the reverse mortgage? A. Yes, I did, but she kept telling me it was -she came to my home, finally came to my home after I tried and tried to get ahold of her, and she finally came to her home. And there was my daughter Carolyn and my son Gerard and I, we were there, and she came. We said, "Now, Katherine, did you pay off the reverse mortgage?" And she was angry and said, "I told you guys that the reverse mortgage is paid off." But she got the mail going to her. Q. You said that Katherine Kealoha was angry? A. Yes, because we kept asking her the same question. Q. And what was her -- and what was the question that you kept asking her? A. If the reverse mortgage was paid off. Q. And what was her answer to that question? A. She always said, "Yes, it is paid off." Q. Did you believe her? A. Well, I believed her, but I didn't have any proof. Q. Now, you mentioned that she had the mail changed; is that right? A. Yes. Yes. Q. So at some point did you stop receiving those MetLife statements in the mail? A. Yes. Q. I'm showing you what's marked as Government's Exhibit 1-5. (Government Exhibit 1-5 offered.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Do you see your name at the top of this document? A. Yes, it's printed. Q. Okay. And is this a communication from MetLife? A. Yes. Q. And what's the title of this document? Please, take your time. A. It's annual -- it's annual company corporation. Q. Is it annual occupancy certificate? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And this document you signed? Towards the bottom of the page, do you see your signature there? A. Yes. MR. McDONALD: Government moves to admit page 10 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 12 of 64 #: 6048 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00036:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00037:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Government's Exhibit 1-5 at this time. (Move to admit Government Exhibit 1-5.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Mrs. Puana, do you see some print handwriting at the top of this document? A. Yes. Q. What does that print handwriting say? A. It says mailing -- mailing address at 4348 -MS. KAGIWADA: Objection. Witness is reading. THE WITNESS: -- Waialae Avenue. BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Is that your address? A. No, it's not. Q. Have you ever been to that address? A. No. Q. Do you recognize that address? A. Well, she -- I don't -- because she didn't live there, but she probably had her mail going there. Q. Who -- who do you mean when you say "she"? A. Katherine. Q. That handwritten print, is that your print? A. No, it's not. Q. Do you know who that -- whose print that is? A. I've never seen her print, so I can't say whose print it is. I've never seen her print. Q. In October of 2010, were you able to get mail at your house at 3934 Nioi? A. No. Q. Well, just any mail, were you getting any mail at your house? Did you have a mailbox at the house? A. Yes, I did. Q. And were you receiving other mail at your Nioi Place home? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Is there any reason why you would need a different mailing address in October of 2010? A. Well, she told me that my daughter was taking my mail. Q. Who -- who told you that? A. Katherine Kealoha said that my daughter Carolyn was taking my mail. Q. Was that true? A. So -- why should she? She had no reason. Q. At the bottom of this page, it indicates that Katherine Kealoha was given permission to discuss your account with MetLife. Whose idea was it to give Katherine Kealoha permission to discuss your account with MetLife? A. Not mine. Q. Did Katherine Kealoha also talk to you about opening a P.O. Box? A. She did. Q. How did that come about? A. She invited my son Gerard and I to go to Assaggio's to have lunch, and then she took me over to UPS Store and had -- and she took my Foodland card and my -- Foodland card and my driver's license and gave it to them. And she told me to sign this papers that -- that the -- her mail -- my mail would go to her box, because on her way home from work she would pick it up and that would be easier to get my -- so she can work on my papers. Q. I'm showing you Government's Exhibit 1-7. (Government Exhibit 1-7 marked.) BY MR. McDONALD: page 11 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 13 of 64 #: 6049 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 23 24 25 00038:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00039:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00040:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 Q. Is this the paper that Katherine had you sign? A. Where is that? Yes, that's my signature. Q. And this is the document to open the P.O. Box with UPS; is that right? A. Yes, that is. MR. McDONALD: The Government moves to admit Government's Exhibit 1-7 at this time. (Move to admit Government Exhibit 1-7.) MR. BARBEE: Voir dire, please. MR. McDONALD: We're not going to engage in voir dire at this time. This document is also accompanied by a certificate of authenticity from the UPS Store that's marked as Exhibit 1-7A. BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Mrs. Puana, directing your attention to the Box 7A, do you see some print handwriting in those boxes? A. Yes, I see it. Q. Is that your handwriting? A. No. Q. Was this paper given to you by Katherine? A. No, she didn't give me any papers after that. Q. But -A. All her mail -- all my mail went to her box. Q. Okay. Do you know whose print handwriting that is on this piece of paper? A. I wouldn't know, because I have never seen her print. Q. Okay. There's a phone number that's listed on Government's Exhibit 1-7, and it's (808) 739-2121. Is that your phone number? A. No. My number is 732-5477. Q. And directing your attention to Box 3A on this document. It says: "Address to be used for delivery," towards the top of the document there, and it says, 43 -MS. KAGIWADA: Objection. Counsel is testifying for the witness. BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Florence, I'll read what's written there and you tell me if it's accurate, okay? A. Yes. Q. Okay. In Box 3A on this document it says: "4348 Waialae Avenue, Number 829." Did I read that right? A. Yes. I don't -Q. Did you ever pick up mail from that place? A. No. Q. Did you have a key to pick up mail from that place? A. No. Q. If you wanted to pick up mail from that place, would you know how to do it? A. No. Q. So were you receiving any more statements in your mailbox at 3934 Nioi? A. No. Q. Mrs. Puana, did you later learn that the reverse mortgage had not been paid off? A. Yes, I got a letter. I got a letter to my home stating that all that -- the -- the money I paid and all the interest I had to pay, and that's when I decided to sell my home, because I was not going to lose my home because it wasn't my fault, because I didn't have any mail until I got that where they page 12 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 14 of 64 #: 6050 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00041:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00042:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00043:01 02 03 04 changed to Deval. Q. So you mentioned Deval? A. Yes. Q. Okay. I'm showing you what's marked as Government's Exhibit 1-8. (Government Exhibit 1-8 offered.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Is this the letter that you got from Deval? A. Yes, I finally got that letter at my address. MR. McDONALD: United States moves to admit Government's Exhibit 1-8. (Move to admit Government Exhibit 1-8.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. What is -- who is this letter addressed to? A. Mortgagor -Q. Does it -A. -- mortgagor. Q. Does it say "Dear Mortgagor"? A. Yes, and that was to me. And I -- I decided I have a mortgage on the home. Q. What is the date on this letter. It's at the very top of the document. A. February -- February 23rd, 2011. Q. Is that an 11 or a 12? A. A 12. Q. It's a little hard to see, is it? A. Yeah. Q. Did this letter cause you concern? A. Yes. Q. Why was that? A. Because I know -- I know that if I wouldn't do something about it, that I would lose my home, and rather than losing my home, I decided to sell it. Q. After receiving this letter in February of 2012, did you try to contact your granddaughter Katherine Kealoha about your mortgage? A. I could never get ahold of her, and I called my -- her mother and I told her mother I was very concerned. And she said, "Why are you concerned?" And I said, "I need this money because I promised my husband that in time, after I'm gone, I was going to sell the house and split the money among my children." And she said, "Do not call here anymore because Kathy -- Kathy is very busy." So that's the response I got. Q. How many times did you try to call Katherine Kealoha? A. So many times. I called her and all I could hear is the strumming of an ukulele. Q. That's what you would hear as the ring tone? A. Yes. I tried so, and I was so afraid that some -- something was going on, and I -- I had no choice, so I decided to sell my home. Q. After not being able to reach Katherine Kealoha on the phone, did you ultimately decide to write her a letter? A. Yes, I did. I had my daughter, I asked my daughter Kehaulani to write it for me and I would tell her what to write and she wrote the letter for me. Q. Where was your daughter when she was writing this letter? A. At my home. Q. Okay. Were you guys in the same room? A. Yes. Q. How far apart were you from each other? page 13 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 15 of 64 #: 6051 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00044:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00045:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 A. Where you are now and I am there. Q. Okay. So for the record, that's approximately three feet. Mrs. Puana, I'm showing you what's marked as Government's Exhibit 1-9. (Government Exhibit 1-9 offered.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Is this the letter that you sent to Katherine Kealoha? A. Yes. Q. And is that your signature at the bottom of the letter? A. Yes, it is. MR. McDONALD: Government moves to admit Exhibit 1-9 at this time. (Move to admit Government Exhibit 1-9.) MR. BARBEE: Objection. Request voir dire. MR. McDONALD: There will be no voir dire during the direct examination of this witness. You can ask questions on cross-examination. MS. KAGIWADA: Objection. I believe that the Rules of Federal Civil Procedure apply to this deposition and we should be allowed to voir dire the witness. MR. McDONALD: The objection is noted for the record. BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Why did you write Katherine a letter? A. Because I wanted her -- I wrote her this letter and tell her that I would like to talk to her, and, you know, talk and ask her why she did this to me. And I said, "Why don't you come and we can talk it over," and maybe she can change her mind about certain things. And that -- I had that letter, I received that letter, it wasn't a letter, it was -- I don't know how many pages she wrote of it. Q. So I'll ask you about that in -- in one minute. Mrs. Puana, the final paragraph of this letter that you wrote to Katherine, you tell me if I'm reading this right. It says: "I am still willing to work this out with you." Did I read that right? A. Yes. Q. And was that true? A. Yes, that's what I wrote to her and said. Q. Now, when this letter was drafted -A. Uh-huh. Q. -- by your daughter, did you have any documentation about what had happened? A. Well, because I found out that the mortgage wasn't paid and I was owing my home, that money, I wanted to talk to her about it and see if we could get something straightened and we could, you know, do something about it. Q. And at -A. So that's why I wrote that letter. Q. And at this point in time, did you know what had happened to the rest of your money from the reverse mortgage? A. No, I did not. Q. Did you know exactly how much money? A. When I got the letter from Deval. Q. Okay. page 14 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 16 of 64 #: 6052 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 21 22 23 24 25 00046:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00047:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00048:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 A. Then I decided that was too much, I couldn't do anything about it. Q. Okay. After you sent this letter to Katherine, did Katherine write you a letter back? A. Yes. Q. And how would you describe that letter? A. An angry letter I would say. Q. Why do you call it "an angry letter"? A. Because everything she wrote in there, she said she never, never cared for us. She wasn't our favorite people and I took a lot of money from her. And it was like 16 pages of it, I think. Q. How did you feel when you got that letter? A. Very depressed, thinking that she told me that she -- to trust her, that she would help me out. Q. Mrs. Puana, I'm showing you what's marked as Government's Exhibit 1-10. (Government Exhibit 1-10 offered.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Is this the letter response that you got back from Katherine Kealoha? A. Effective April the 9th, 2012, I -Q. So let me ask you this, Mrs. Puana, is this -is this the letter that Katherine sent you back in response to your letter? A. I can hardly see this. Q. It's a little hard to see? A. Yeah, it's very hard. Q. See the top here? Whose name is at the top of this document? A. Katherine Kealoha. Q. And then is it addressed -- whose name is it addressed to? A. To the -- to me. Q. To you? A. And to my son Gerard. Q. And is there a date on this document? A. September 15th, 2012. Q. And is there a title on this document? What's the title of this document? A. Sent certificate. Q. So just below your name and address, it said there -- it says: "Response to the letter dated September 10, 2012." Did I read that right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So is this -- is this the letter that Katherine sent to you in response? A. Yes. MR. McDONALD: Government moves to admit Government's Exhibit 1-10 at this time. (Move to admit Government Exhibit 1-10.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Mrs. Puana, directing you to paragraph 10 on the second page of this letter, and I'll read it and you tell me if I read it correctly. A. Okay. Q. Katherine said: "I have never, will never or would never borrow, take" -A. Yeah. Q. -- "or even request to borrow any money from Florence Puana." Did I read that right? A. Yes. Q. Was that statement true or false? A. False. Absolutely false. page 15 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 17 of 64 #: 6053 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00049:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00050:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00051:01 02 Q. And directing your attention to paragraph 17, which appears on page 3 of this exhibit. In the middle of that paragraph it says this: "I will seek the highest form of legal retribution against anyone and everyone who has written or verbally uttered these lies about me." Do you see that there? A. Yes. Q. Had you said lies about Katherine? A. No, never. I trusted her. Q. What did you understand Katherine to mean when she said she would seek the highest form of legal retribution against you? A. I don't know. I could never say that because one never knows how she works. Q. Are you an attorney? A. No, I am not. I wish I was. Q. Is Katherine an attorney? A. Yes, she is. Q. The last sentence in paragraph 17, Mrs. Puana, Katherine said this: "They will rue the day that they decided to state these twisted lies." Did I read that right? A. Yes. That's -Q. What -A. -- exactly what she wrote. Q. What did you understand her to mean when she said that you would rue the day? A. Well, in other words, she would be smarter and had -- she was smarter, but I would rue the day that she would do anything. She was -- more or less she was trying me out. Q. Mrs. Puana, what did you do next after you got this letter? A. Well, I knew that she wasn't the person that I thought I knew and I respected, so -Q. In what way -- in what way was she not the person that you thought she was? A. Because she wasn't doing the things I asked her to. She said over and over again that the mortgage was paid for, the reverse mortgage was paid for, and it was never fully paid. So the next thing I said, that I fired her as my -- to be my attorney. Q. Did you -- did you take steps to try to figured out -- figure out what happened with your reverse mortgage money? A. Oh, yes, I did. I tried to. And that's when my daughter Kay, what she -- she went on -- on the phone and she finally found out where that -- the address was. Q. Did you know that you had a joint account at the Bank of Hawaii with Katherine Kealoha? A. No, I did not. Q. Did you eventually find that out? A. Yes, I did. Q. Did you go to the Bank of Hawaii to get statements for that joint account? A. Yes, I did. Q. And did you have to pay money to get those statements? A. Yes. Q. How much money, approximately, did you have to pay for those statements? A. $243, I think it was. Q. Okay. And did you write a check? A. They -- I wanted to write a check, and they page 16 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 18 of 64 #: 6054 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00052:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00053:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 said they don't accept checks. So my -- my son Gerard had to go to the AP -- ATM and get the money, cash money to pay it. Q. Okay. And so you paid for them? A. Yes. Q. Did you get any bank statements then? A. Yes, I did. Q. Okay. After you got those bank statements, did you learn what happened to your money? A. I did. Q. And what happened to your money? A. She spent it all. Q. Who is "she"? A. Katherine. Q. Katherine Kealoha? A. She spent it all. Q. Mrs. Puana, I'm showing you what's marked as Government's Exhibit 1-13. The first page of this document has previously been admitted as Government's Exhibit 1-3. (Government Exhibit 1-13 offered.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Mrs. Puana, are these the bank statements from your joint account with Katherine Kealoha? A. Where does it say that, Katherine? Katherine, there's Katherine's name and my name. Q. So let me ask you this, Mrs. Puana, so your name and Katherine's name are on these statements? A. Yes. Q. Okay. MR. McDONALD: The Government would move to admit Government's Exhibit 1-13, which is also accompanied by a certificate of authenticity from the Bank of Hawaii. (Move to admit Government Exhibit 1-13.) BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Mrs. Puana, did you have a card for this bank account? A. No, I didn't. Q. Did you have a checkbook for -A. No -Q. -- this bank account? A. -- I did not. She told me it was for the reverse mortgage, because I asked her, "Why am I signing this paper?" And she said, "Grandma, trust me. I am your attorney. This is for the reverse mortgage," so I signed it. Q. Did you know how to access money in this account? A. No, I did not. Q. I'm referring now to the statement period December 31st to January 31st, 2009 to 2010. This is the Bates number ending 24 in Government's Exhibit 1-13. Mrs. Puana, there's a purchase reflected on this page of $23,976.69 at the Sheraton Waikiki. Did you spend over $23,000 at the Sheraton Waikiki? A. No, I didn't. Q. Do you know who did? A. Katherine did. That was for her husband's breakfast. Q. If Katherine Kealoha had come to you and said, "Grandma, I want to spend $23,976.69 at the Sheraton Waikiki," would you have let her? A. I wouldn't have because I didn't have that page 17 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 19 of 64 #: 6055 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00054:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00055:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00056:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 kind of money. Q. Turning to the next page, Mrs. Puana, did you make any purchases from this account? A. No, I didn't. Q. If you wanted to make a purchase from this account, would you have been able to? A. I don't think so. I didn't have the card. Q. Have you ever been to Disneyland? A. No. Q. By the time you got these bank statements, was any of your money left? A. Yes, but it was very -- that's why I decided to sell it because I would never -- I would have lost my home and I didn't want the bank to get it. Q. Mrs. Puana, in March 2013 did you file a lawsuit against Katherine Kealoha? A. Yes, I did. Q. And why did you file the lawsuit? A. Because she didn't do her work that she promised. She was not a good attorney for me. She never answered the questions. She knew that I didn't know anything about it. Q. Had she kept her promises for paying off the reverse mortgage? A. No, she hadn't. She did not. Q. I'd like to direct your attention to June 19th, 2013, the day when Katherine Kealoha's deposition was taken. Do you remember that day? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Mrs. Puana, would you like to take a break now and we can restart in a couple minutes? A. No, I think I'm fine. Q. You're fine? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Then we will carry on. A. Yes. Q. So were you present on June 19th, 2013, when Katherine Kealoha's deposition was taken? A. Yes, I was. Q. Did you stay to the end of that deposition? A. No, I did not. Q. Why did you leave early? A. I was very ashamed of myself, what I did, but I turned around to my son and said that she is lying. She was lying. And I shouldn't have done that. So my attorney told my -- Gerard and I to leave. Q. So did you leave? A. Yes, I did. Q. And did anyone go with you? A. My son took me to the lobby. Q. And what happened when you got to the lobby? A. My -- my -- Gerard told -- turned to Bobby and he said, "Bobby, could you stay with Grandma while I go for my car." And I said, "Grandma," and then I realized that that was my great-granddaughter Maile Louise's husband. Q. Directing your attention to Government's Exhibit 1-15, which has been previously admitted. The gentleman in that photograph, is that the person you saw in the lobby? A. Yes. Q. And did you have any conversation with Mr. Nguyen in the lobby? A. Yes, he asked me questions about Gerard, and he asked me -- which I thought was silly. page 18 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 20 of 64 #: 6056 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00057:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00058:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. What questions did he ask you -He asked me --- about Gerard? -- where did he park the car? I said, "I don't know." And he asked other -- other questions, and I was -- I was -- I just was hurting and I wanted to go home, and he asked, and then he asked me what kind of car did he drive, and I said, "A white car." Q. Now, when he asked you what kind of car does he drive, who was he referring to? A. My son Gerard. Q. Okay. A. And he was texting someone while he was talking to me. Q. Who -- who was texting while talking to you? A. Bobby. Q. Bobby Nguyen? A. Bobby Nguyen was texting someone while he was asking me these questions. Q. And how long, approximately, were you with Bobby Nguyen in the lobby? A. Not more than 15 minutes, I guess. Q. Okay. How far apart from him were you when he was asking you these questions about Gerard? A. Just about apart, you and I are. Q. So approximately three feet? A. (Nodding head.) Q. Were you seated or sitting -- or standing? A. I was sitting, because I was on the -- my walker, not on the wheelchair, but the walker. Q. Okay. And where was your son Gerard during this time? A. He went to get the car. Q. Did he come back for you? A. Yes, he did. Q. And did Mr. Nguyen help you out to the car? A. No, he didn't. Q. Do you know what Bobby Nguyen's profession is? A. He's a police officer. Q. Was he wearing his police officer uniform? A. No, he was not. Q. Shortly after your conversation with Bobby Nguyen, did you hear anything about a mailbox at the Kealohas' house? A. Yes, I did. Q. What did you hear about a mailbox at their house? A. That they said it was Gerard. Q. And what did they say about Gerard? A. That he stole the mailbox. Q. Have you ever had a chance to look at video -A. Yes, I did. Q. And was that of the mailbox being taken? A. Yes. Q. I'm showing you what's been marked for identification as Government's Exhibits 7-3 and 7-4. (Government Exhibits 7-3 & 7-4 offered.) THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Do you recognize these exhibits? A. Yes, I do. Q. Do you see some initials on these exhibits? A. Yes. Q. Whose initials are those? A. My initials. page 19 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 21 of 64 #: 6057 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 00059:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00060:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00061:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. And did you place those initials after watching the videos on these two disks? A. Yes, I did. Q. What generally did you see on those videos? A. Whoever I saw was not my son Gerard. Q. And what did you -- what did -- what did you see -A. I -Q. -- on these videos? A. I saw this guy get out of his car and walk to the mailbox and the mailbox seemed like it was sawed out, because he just picked it up, didn't struggle with it, and he took it to the car. MR. ISAACSON: Counsel, may I ask inquiry, can I -- what exactly -- can I see what you're referring to? MR. McDONALD: Mrs. -MR. ISAACSON: If anybody else wants to see. MS. KAGIWADA: Yes, please. MR. McDONALD: Mrs. Puana -MR. ISAACSON: I just have an inquiry -an objection. Can you give us a representation of what those disks are, could I get that on the record, what they are. BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Mrs. Puana, what did you see on those disks? MR. ISAACSON: I'll just make an objection, because I don't know what's on -- I don't think they've been identified as what those -- is contained on the disk, so I would object to them. MR. McDONALD: Thank you for your objection. BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Mrs. Puana, were there videos on these disks? A. Yes. Q. And did you watch them? A. Yes. Q. And did these videos show someone taking a mailbox? A. Yes. Q. Do you know who that person was taking the mailbox? A. I -- I didn't recognize him, but I know it wasn't my son Gerard, because he has broader shoulders and he didn't walk the way he did. Q. Who is "he" when you say "he"? A. Gerard. Q. How long have you known Gerard? A. As long as -- all my life. Q. Is that all his life? A. Yeah. Q. Okay. And you're familiar with how your son looks? A. Yes. Q. Is there any doubt in your mind as to whether that person in the video is Gerard? A. I know -- I know it's not Gerard. Q. I'd like to talk to you now about a competency -A. Yes. Q. -- proceeding about you, okay? A. Yes. Q. In the middle of your lawsuit against Katherine Kealoha, did Katherine file a lawsuit about you? page 20 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 22 of 64 #: 6058 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00062:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00063:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00064:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 A. Yes, she did. Q. What did she claim about you? A. She said I was incompetent and I am not incompetent. Q. How did you react when you heard that Katherine said that you were incompetent? A. I felt bad. I felt like she didn't trust me or she didn't love me like she did. Why should she say I was incompetent? She know me, she know me for a long time, and I don't think I gave her any indication to think that I was incompetent. Q. Now, in Katherine Kealoha's letter to you, which has been admitted as Government's Exhibit 1-10, Katherine said she would seek the highest form of legal retribution against you. Did you believe that the competency petition was a form of legal retribution against you? A. Should be, otherwise she wouldn't have me go to all these different people. Q. What did you have to do after Katherine Kealoha filed the petition? A. Well, she said I had to have proof, some kind of proof that I was not incompetent. Q. And were you -- did you have to go see a doctor? A. Yes, I did. Q. Who did you see? A. I saw Dr. Blanchette and I saw Mr. Diehl and I saw Dr. Young. Q. And what was the result of that competency petition? A. Everyone said I was -- I was not incompetent, and they wrote letters about what they thought I was, that I was not incompetent. Q. Your lawsuit against Katherine Kealoha, did you win or did you lose that lawsuit? A. I lost it. Q. And what's the current status, if you know, of that lawsuit? A. Well, I don't think they were fair. MS. KAGIWADA: I'm sorry, I could not hear the witness's answer. BY MR. McDONALD: Q. Could you speak up a little bit more, Florence. A. I don't think they were fair. Q. Mrs. Puana, do you still live in your family home on Nioi Place? A. No, I don't. Q. And why is that? A. I moved with my daughter in Kailua. Q. And why did you move? A. I moved because I sold my house. Q. And why did you sell your house? A. Because I lost -- lost it through a mortgage, reverse mortgage. Q. You could have -- could you have chosen to stay in it for the rest of your life? A. Yeah, I could, but I did not want because I promised my husband that after I'm gone, I would sell the house and split it among my nine children. MR. McDONALD: Okay. I have no further questions of this witness at this point. And at this point I would propose a ten-minute break. If the video operator could please state the time for the record. page 21 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 23 of 64 #: 6059 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 08 09 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record at 10:47 a.m. (Recess taken.) 8. PAGE 64:11 TO 70:19 (RUNNING 00:06:40.060) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00065:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00066:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record at 11:04 a.m. MR. McDONALD: The United States has finished its direct examination of the witness, and then at this point the defense attorneys will now be able to cross-examine the witness. And I believe we're beginning with Mr. Bervar. MR. BERVAR: Birney Bervar on behalf of Derek Hahn. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BERVAR: Q. Good morning, Ms. Puana. My name is Birney Bervar. A. Yes. Q. I'm the attorney for Derek Hahn, who is sitting right next to me here to my right. You don't know Derek Hahn, do you? Right here, you don't know this man? A. Oh, yeah. Q. You don't know him? A. No. Q. You've never met him? A. No. MR. BERVAR: Thank you. No further questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ISAACSON: Q. My name is Lars Isaacson, Ms. Puana, down here. I represent Gordon Shiraishi, who is one of the defendants in the case. Have you ever met Mr. Shiraishi? A. What did you say? Q. I'm sorry. A. I couldn't hear him. Q. Can you see Mr. Shiraishi okay? Can you see him? I'm sorry -MR. McDONALD: Would you like to approach maybe closer, Mr. Isaacson, to ask a question? MR. ISAACSON: Yes, I'll do that. I'll come up a little closer. BY MR. ISAACSON: Q. I'm going to lean over here a little bit. A. Okay. Q. My name is Lars Isaacson. I'm a lawyer. A. Yeah, oh. Q. And I represent Mr. Shiraishi. A. I see. Q. Who is one of the defendants in the case. A. Okay. Q. You don't know him, do you? A. No, I don't. Q. You've never met him? A. No. Q. You sure of that? Okay. A. I have never met him. MR. ISAACSON: Thank you very much. That's all the questions I have. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BARBEE: Q. Good morning, Ms. Puana. A. Good morning. page 22 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 24 of 64 #: 6060 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 22 23 24 25 00067:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00068:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00069:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 Q. How are you today? A. I'm doing good. Q. Okay. My name is Russ Barbee. I'm over here in the blue shirt. A. Yes. Q. And I represent Louie Kealoha. A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. Okay. Q. Let me ask you just a couple of brief questions, and I don't mean to insult you, I just want to make sure that you fully know what's going on today, okay? A. Okay. Q. Okay. What is the date today? A. The date is April 31st. Q. What year? A. 2019. Q. Okay. And where are you? A. I'm at the court. Q. Okay. And what city are you in? A. In Oahu. Q. Okay. And I'm going to ask you a few questions about what we talked about this morning already. A. Yes. Q. Okay. So in -- I guess it would have been sometime in 2000 -- 2009 time period, somebody telephoned you and gave you a presentation over the telephone about a reverse mortgage? A. Yes, that's correct. Q. Okay. And based upon that conversation with the salesperson or whoever, you thought or considered that maybe a reverse mortgage would allow you to buy a condo for your son Gerard? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And where were you living at the time that you considered buying this condo for Gerard? A. I was at 3934 Nioi Place. Q. Okay. And did you live alone there or who lived with you? A. My son Gerard. Q. Okay. So it was just you and Gerard living there -A. Yes. Q. -- no other sons or daughters, just Gerard? A. Yes, sir. Q. And your goal after you heard this presentation from the salesperson about the reverse mortgage was to purchase a condominium for Gerard? A. Yes. Q. And the condominium that he was interested in was the one he used to live in earlier in his life, correct? A. Yes. Q. And that was the green -- Greenwood or -A. Greenwood. Q. Okay. Greenwood condominiums? A. Yes. Q. So Gerard used to live there, he lost it, he moved in with you, and you decided to purchase -- or repurchase the same unit that he used to live in. MR. McDONALD: Objection. Vague, facts not in evidence. BY MR. BARBEE: Q. You decided that you would purchase this page 23 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 25 of 64 #: 6061 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00070:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 condominium for your son Gerard? A. Yes. Q. And that's the condominium that he wanted you to purchase? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And then at some point it was your idea to meet with your granddaughter Katherine Kealoha to see if she could help you and Gerard purchase the condominium for Gerard? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Misstates the evidence. BY MR. BARBEE: Q. Is that -A. She came to me. Q. How did she know that you were interested in buying a condominium for Gerard? A. Because that was the person that was -- she was in a Realtor, she was a Realtor, my son Gerard's friend was a Realtor, and she told my son that that apartment was for sale and he got so excited, so he said, "Oh, I wish I could get that." And I said, "Well, I'm sorry, we don't have the money." So Katherine Kealoha came to me and said, "I can help you to help Gerard get the -- the apartment he wants." And I said, "How is that?" She said, "Oh, you can have a reverse mortgage." And she said that you can pay the reverse mortgage every month or I can give her money to pay the reverse mortgage, and then Gerard and her will take over the monthly payments. 9. PAGE 71:15 TO 78:15 (RUNNING 00:10:33.102) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00072:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Initially, with regard to this reverse mortgage business, was it a telephone call from somebody that interest you -- interested you in a reverse mortgage? A. No. Kathy came to me and told me that she could help me to get the -- the condominium for Gerry. And I said, "How can that be?" And she said, "Well, you can -- you can make a reverse mortgage." And she said -- and get me the money and she would pay the reverse mortgage, and the remaining money would go to -- for her upkeep of her house and -- and then the -- the rest of the money, she would -- the rest of the money she would keep for the refinancing her home. But she said the reverse mortgage was paid off. She would pay off the reverse mortgage. Q. Okay. A. And the rest of the money she would use for her home. Q. Okay. I -- I appreciate that, but I'm trying to just ask kind of a more narrow question. In 2009, where did the idea of a reverse mortgage come from first? Was it somebody who called you on the phone or was it Kathy? MR. McDONALD: Objection. THE WITNESS: No. MR. McDONALD: Asked and answered. BY MR. BARBEE: Q. Was it the person on the phone or was it Kathy? A. It was Kathy who came to me, because my son did not want to sign the paper because he felt he had page 24 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 26 of 64 #: 6062 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 22 23 24 25 00073:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00074:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00075:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 eight siblings and he thought it wouldn't be fair for him to sign the paper. So Kathy said if I would have the reverse mortgage, and it took me some time before I decided I would sign the paper. But Kathy came to me and told me she could help Gerard to get the apartment, this apartment. Q. Okay. I have, you know, a bunch of questions I wanted to ask you and they're kind of a little bit more narrow, so it might be faster if you just answer -- try to answer specifically the question that I'm asking. So your son Gerard wanted to get your help in buying the condominium, correct? A. Well, he knew I couldn't do it, because I didn't have that money, that kind of money. So that's why I took some time before I signed the paper, and then Kathy came to me and said she could help me to help Gerard to get the apartment. Q. How did Kathy know that you wanted to buy a condominium for Gerard? How did she know that? A. Because Gerry -- Gerry must have said that that was the apartment that he owned before. Q. Okay. A. But he said he couldn't -- he didn't have the money for it. Q. Okay. You indicated earlier this morning that you had nine children and that one had passed away. A. Yes. Q. So in 2009, in that time frame, you would have had eight living children? A. I still had nine children at that time. Q. In 2009? A. My son -- my son who passed away just last year. Q. I see, okay. I'm sorry for that. And you indicated on your direct testimony that you had promised your deceased husband that when it was time, that you would sell the house and split the proceeds evenly -A. That's right. Q. -- between the siblings? A. That's right. That's why I was -- I was very undecided whether I should sign the paper or not, but it took me some time. Q. But the sibling that you were living with in 2009 eventually was the one that was -- the only sibling that had a condominium purchased for him, correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And that was Gerard? A. That was Gerard. Q. Okay. With regard to Exhibit -- Government's Exhibit 1-1, Mr. McDonald, thank you. This has been identified as a durable power of attorney, and you looked at that with Mr. McDonald? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And who -- who is Louis Kealoha? A. That is Katherine Kealoha's husband. Q. Okay. And he's not an attorney, is he? A. Pardon? Q. He's not a lawyer? A. He is a -- he is a police chief. Q. Okay. But he's not a lawyer, correct? A. That, I don't know. Q. Okay. Okay, that's fair enough. On that durable power of attorney, page 25 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 27 of 64 #: 6063 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00076:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00077:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00078:01 02 03 Exhibit 1-1, he's not listed as one of the people that has your power of attorney, is he? It's just Kathy, correct? A. He's not listed. Q. Okay. Thank you. With regard to Exhibit 1-2, the trust amendment. A. I couldn't hear that. Q. He's going to hand it to you, ma'am. Okay. You talked about this exhibit earlier this morning also, probably around 10:00 or so. That purports to be a trust amendment. It's amending the -- your person -- your -- your trust. There's no amendment affecting chief -- or Louis Kealoha, is there? There's nothing to do with Mr. Kealoha, correct? And take your time. A. Why do he have -Q. It has some names on the document? A. Yes, it does. Q. And it says "Florence M. Puana Trust," correct? Maybe I can assist by pointing areas out to her. At the top of the page, what is the name of the trust? A. The second amendment of the Florence Puana Trust. Q. Okay. A. Now, what does that mean? Second trust? Q. But the name is the Florence M. Puana Trust? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And then it has, towards the bottom, the initial trustee, it has a name? A. Yes, it has a name. Q. And that's your name? A. Yes, but it's printed. Q. It's printed, correct? A. Yes. Q. And then underneath that name is the successor trustee? A. Katherine Puana. Q. And under that is the final successor trustee? A. Gerald K. Puana. Q. And then the beneficiary is? A. Florence M. Puana. Q. Okay. And there's no name on there giving any interest to Louis Kealoha, is there? A. No, there's not. Q. Okay, thank you. On Exhibit -- Government's Exhibit 1-3, I believe it's a Bank of America joint account signature. Mrs. Puana, what's been handed to you is Government's Exhibit 1-3. It's a bank of -- is it Bank of America or Bank of Hawaii? Let's see, it's a joint -A. Just -- yes. Q. Sorry to be getting up and down here. A. Yes, I know that. Q. Okay. It's a joint signature card, correct? A. Yes. Q. And there's no signatory for Louis Kealoha, is there? A. Yes. Q. He's not on that card, is he? A. Katherine gave me this slip of paper. page 26 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 28 of 64 #: 6064 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. Okay. A. And she said to sign the paper. Q. Right. A. And I said, "What am I signing this paper for?" Q. Right. A. And she said, "I told you, trust me, I'm your attorney. This is for the first -- for the -- for the reverse mortgage." Q. And on that Exhibit 1-3 there's no signature for Louis Kealoha, is there? A. No. 10. PAGE 78:23 TO 81:24 (RUNNING 00:05:33.368) 23 24 25 00079:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00080:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. Okay. I'd next like you to look at Exhibit 1-9. What's been handed to you, I believe, was admitted into evidence, and that's a letter purportedly from you to Katherine, correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you had help writing the letter. Your daughter helped you write the letter? A. Yes, my daughter wrote it to me and I told her what I wanted to write. Q. Okay. And who's the letter addressed to? A. It writes "Dear Katherine." Q. And at the bottom of the page on the left it appears there's a cc to two people. A. Yes. Q. And that would be Louis Kealoha? A. Yes. Q. And Francis H. Yano? A. Yes. Q. And Francis Yano is your personal attorney? A. He -- I asked him, but he said he was in the real estate and he couldn't take my -- he couldn't take my case. So she -- he handed me to Gerald -Gerald, my present attorney. Q. Okay, understood. But by that mention of the two names at the bottom left part of the letter, does that mean that copies of the letter were sent to those two individuals? A. I signed it, but I don't -- I signed it. Q. Do you know who put that cc and the two names there on the face of the letter? Do you know who put their names there? A. I don't know. Q. Okay. Do you know if copies of this letter to Katherine went to those two people? A. No, I did not know. Q. Okay. And the purpose of the letter was for it to reach Katherine, correct? This was your letter to Katherine? A. Yes. Q. And if you look at page 2, it appears to be an envelope. A. What's on page 2? Q. And do you see the addressee, the person who was -- the envelope was mailed to? A. Chief Louis Kealoha. Q. Okay. Did you want this letter to go to Chief Kealoha? A. No. Q. Did you expect him to answer the letter that you wrote to Katherine? A. No. How could he because I didn't ask him. page 27 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 29 of 64 #: 6065 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 25 00081:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. Right. After you sent that letter to Katherine in 2012, you got a letter back from Katherine, correct? A. Yes, I did. MR. BARBEE: Could the witness be shown Exhibit 1-10. THE WITNESS: I would -MR. McDONALD: Wait for a question, Florence. BY MR. BARBEE: Q. Do you -- do you remember talking to the Government's lawyer about that document this morning earlier today? This is a letter addressed to you from Katherine. A. Yes. Q. Okay. And regarding the subject matter of the letter, it appears that the letter talks about the reverse mortgage and loans and financial issues affecting yourself and Gerard and Katherine, correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And these financial issues, Mr. Kealoha, Louis Kealoha was not involved in these three financial -- these financial issues between the three of you? A. No, he's not. 11. PAGE 82:07 TO 82:23 (RUNNING 00:00:53.483) 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. After some time passed and after Gerard was able to move into his condominium, did you go to move in with Gerard? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Relevance. THE WITNESS: Yes, I did for a while. BY MR. BARBEE: Q. And that was for a very short amount of time, correct? A. Yes. Q. And then you moved to Kailua with your daughter? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And after the exchange of letters between your letter to Katherine in 2012 and her response in September 2012, you and Gerard decided to sue Kathy, correct? A. Yes. 12. PAGE 83:07 TO 83:11 (RUNNING 00:00:13.183) 07 08 09 10 11 BY MR. BARBEE: Q. Okay. And did -- that case proceeded to trial across the street here in Hawaii First Circuit Court, correct? A. Yes. 13. PAGE 85:05 TO 105:12 (RUNNING 00:21:07.076) 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. Okay. You discussed with the Government's lawyer looking at a videotape of what appeared to be a man taking a mailbox? A. Yes. Q. Was that black and white or was it color? A. It was black and white. Q. Okay. And you indicated that you did not recognize the person who was taking the mailbox. A. No, it was not my son. Q. Okay. A. Definitely. Q. Okay. In 2011 how did your son look -page 28 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 30 of 64 #: 6066 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00086:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00087:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00088:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 MR. McDONALD: Objection as to relevance. BY MR. BARBEE: Q. -- in terms of his physical appearance? MR. McDONALD: Objection as to relevance as to the time frame. BY MR. BARBEE: Q. Well, let me back up a little bit. You indicated that the person who appeared to be taking the mailbox, their shoulders weren't as broad as Gerard? Gerard had broader shoulders? A. Yes, broader -- broader shoulders than the person on that video. Q. Okay. And is he -- has he always remained pretty much the same size or has his weight varied during, let's say, the past six years or so? A. Well, not necessarily. Q. Meaning that his weight is not necessarily always the same? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Vague as to the time frame. BY MR. BARBEE: Q. During the past six years or so? MR. McDONALD: Objection as to relevance over the last six years. BY MR. BARBEE: Q. You are familiar with your son Gerard's physical appearance, correct, Mrs. Puana? A. I wouldn't say. I couldn't say. Q. You couldn't say that you're familiar with his appearance? A. I couldn't say if he was the same or not. Q. Okay. What would you estimate his weight to be now in 2019? MR. McDONALD: Relevance objection. BY MR. BARBEE: Q. If you had -MR. McDONALD: You can answer the question. BY MR. BARBEE: Q. If you had to say what his weight would be, what would his approximate weight be? A. I wouldn't know. Q. In the past, has he weighed less than he does today? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Vague. BY MR. BARBEE: Q. In the past -- has he always appeared to be the same as he appears today in terms of weight? A. Like I said, I couldn't say. Q. Okay. So you couldn't say whether or not -A. Yes. Q. -- five years ago if he were a lighter weight than he is today? A. I couldn't say. Q. Okay. A. I couldn't answer that. Q. In looking at the Government's -- or looking at the videos that you looked at, do you know that person that's taking the mailbox? Can you identify that person? A. No, I don't. Q. Okay. A. I really don't know. MR. BARBEE: No further questions. THE WITNESS: Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION page 29 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 31 of 64 #: 6067 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00089:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00090:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 BY MR. HIRONAKA: Q. Mrs. Puana. A. Yes. Q. Mrs. Puana, how are you doing? A. Yes. Q. Can you keep going? Are you okay to continue? Are you okay to keep going? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Mrs. Puana, my name is Randy Hironaka. I'm going to ask you some questions. A. Yes. Q. Okay? If at any time you don't understand a question of mine, will you let me know? A. Yes, okay. Q. Mrs. Puana, you already testified that you know somebody by the name of Bobby Nguyen; is that correct? A. Yes. Q. And who is Bobby Nguyen? A. Bobby Nguyen? Q. Yeah, same person. A. Bobby -- Bobby is my great-granddaughter Maile Louise's husband. Q. Okay. Are they still married, or, no, they're not? A. I don't know. Q. Okay. And about how long have you known Bobby? A. Since he married Maile Louise. Q. Do you know what year that was? A. Yes. Q. When was that? A. That was maybe about 2009. Q. Okay. And were you close with Maile? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Relevance. THE WITNESS: Well, I never saw her all the time. BY MR. HIRONAKA: Q. How often -- how often would you see her -A. I -Q. -- in about -- in 2009. A. -- I -- I never saw my granddaughter Maile Louise often. Q. You did not see her often? A. Yeah. Q. Do you know how often you would see her? A. She never came to my house, no. Q. Okay. How about -- so -- so I'm guessing that you saw Bobby even less than, than Maile? A. Pardon? Q. You wouldn't see Bobby that often either, then? A. Well, Bobby, I saw him with his police officer's uniform. So when I saw him without his uniform, I couldn't recognize him, but after I did. Q. Okay. So you're saying -- I'm a little confused. You're saying that you used to see Bobby in a uniform? A. Yes. Q. When you first met him, is that what you're talking about? A. Yes, at -- whenever I saw him, he had his police uniform. Q. Okay. Did there come a time when -- well, and when he was wearing his uniform, how often would you see him? page 30 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 32 of 64 #: 6068 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 24 25 00091:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00092:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00093:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 A. Well, I couldn't -- I couldn't recognize him until my -- my son Gerard told him to sit down with grandma -Q. Okay. You -A. -- and when he said sit down with grandma, I realized he must be my granddaughter Maile Louise's husband. Q. And you're talking about the day of the deposition of Katherine Kealoha? A. That's when -- yes, when he came to the lobby. Q. Okay. Okay. So I want to -- and I'm going to ask you some questions about that, but I want to back up a little bit -A. Yeah. Q. -- first, okay? So can you say now if Bobby Nguyen is in this room? A. Pardon? Q. Is Bobby Nguyen here today? Is he in this room? Bobby, is he here? A. Bobby? Q. Yes. A. Here? Q. Is he here right now in this room? A. I can't -- I'm blind from my right -- left eye. Q. Oh, I see, okay. A. So I cannot see very well. Q. Okay. A. So I couldn't recognize him. Q. You couldn't -- you wouldn't be able to recognize him if you -A. No. Q. Okay, all right. So did there come a time later on when you would see Bobby not in uniform, or are you saying you couldn't recognize him? A. Well, the day I came to the lobby and my -- my son Gerard told me to sit with grandma, then I put two and two together and I said it must be Maile Louise's husband because he was wearing an aloha shirt and shorts. Q. Okay. Ma'am, are you saying that you just guessed that that was Bobby, or are you saying that you recognized that that was Bobby? You're saying that you guessed that that was him? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Misstates the testimony. BY MR. HIRONAKA: Q. You did not recognize that person as Bobby Nguyen, correct? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Misstates the testimony. MR. HIRONAKA: I'm asking a question. THE WITNESS: Well, first of all, my eyesight is not too good. BY MR. HIRONAKA: Q. Okay. A. So I -- I cannot really see the faces plain. Q. Okay. Let's -- let's back up a little bit. I want to talk about earlier that day, okay? Do you remember where the deposition took place? Do you remember what building it took place in? A. What? Q. The building that the deposition was in. page 31 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 33 of 64 #: 6069 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00094:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00095:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00096:01 02 03 04 05 A. The building? I don't know the buildings. Q. Generally how about, was it downtown? A. It was -- gee, I don't know. Q. Okay. Do you remember what time the deposition started? Was it first thing in the morning? Was it -- was it like today, did it start in the morning and kind of go all day? A. If I were seeing Bobby today? Q. No, no, no. I'm saying the deposition, do you remember what time it started? MR. McDONALD: Vague as to deposition. BY MR. HIRONAKA: Q. Okay, I'm talking about -- I believe you previously referenced this as the deposition of Katherine Kealoha on June 19th, 2013. A. Yes. Q. Okay. Do you remember what time the deposition started? What time did you get to the building? A. I don't remember. Q. Was it in the morning? A. Yes. Q. Okay. You went with -- you went with your son Gerard, right? A. Yes. Q. He drove? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And it was just the two of you that drove there together? A. Yeah, he drove me, my grand -- my son Gerard drove me. Q. Okay. And your attorney met you there, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And was that -- was that Gerald, is that the person you called Gerald? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you said that you had to leave early -A. Yes. Q. -- because you said something you were ashamed of, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And then you said that your -- your attorney, your own attorney asked you to leave, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And do you know how long you were there before you were asked to leave? A. A long time. Q. Okay. So after you left, then you went down to the lobby with your son Gerard, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And then you said that Gerard -- you testified earlier today that Gerard asked Bobby to stay with you? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And, ma'am, you remember having a deposition similar to this about five years ago, right? Do you remember that? A. Yes. Q. And different lawyers, but you were being asked very similar questions, correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And do you remember at that time saying that your son told you to sit next to Bobby and wait for him? A. Yes. He said -- he didn't say Bobby. He page 32 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 34 of 64 #: 6070 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00097:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00098:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 said, "Sit next to Grandma." So when he said "grandma," then I said that must be my great-granddaughter Maile Louise's husband, because I didn't know any other Bobby. So when he said "Bobby," I realized it was him. Q. Okay. Now, you said that -- you said that Bobby was texting on his phone -A. Yes, he was. Q. -- when he was talking to you; is that correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Previously when you were asked questions, and I know this was a while ago, this was five years ago, when you said that Bobby was on his phone while he was talking to you, is that what you were referring to? Were you -- did you -A. No. Q. -- mean texting or talking on the phone? A. I -- I said texting. Q. You said texting today. A. No, yeah, today I said text. I didn't say it yet, but I'm saying now he was texting someone while he was asking me all these questions about Gerard. Q. Okay. A. He asked me where did he park. Q. Okay. So just to be clear, ma'am, you're telling us that five years ago you didn't say texting, right? Today you're saying texting? A. Well, I don't remember what I said five years ago. Q. Okay. You don't remember? A. No. Q. Okay. Now, you said that Bobby was asking you questions about Gerard's car, right? A. Yes. Q. And you said that he asked you what kind of car Gerard drove? A. Yes. Q. And you said that he also asked you the color? A. He -- I told him it was a white car. Q. You told him it was a white car? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, this is the same car that you drove -- you came in, you rode in earlier that morning? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And -- and you're saying that when you told Bobby that, you were mistaken, that Gerard actually drives a silver car? A. No, I didn't say silver. I said white. Q. No, no, I understand, but you're saying -- is it your testimony that you were mistaken and Gerard actually drove a silver car? Are you still saying he drove a white car? A. I said white car. Q. You told Bobby a white car? A. Yes. Q. What color is Gerard's car? A. Silver. Q. It was silver. A. Well, I don't know what kind of car he's got now, but -Q. Okay. A. -- he had a silver car. Q. He had silver on June 19th -A. Yes. page 33 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 35 of 64 #: 6071 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 22 23 24 25 00099:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00100:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00101:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 Q. -- 2013? A. When he brought me to the court, he was driving a silver car, but I told Bobby a white car. Q. Okay. Ma'am, how many times prior to June 19, 2013, did you ride in Gerard's -- in your son's car? A. Well, he was the only one that took me around because I stopped driving when I was 90 years old. Q. Okay. In 2013, were you 94, am I correct? A. Am I what? Q. In 2013 you were 94 years old, yes? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So you're saying that you stopped driving when you were 90, and so for four years your son Gerard drove you wherever you needed to go, right? A. Yes. Q. He was a good son, right? Is that a yes? A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. Because he was the one that was living with me. Q. He would take you to the market? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Is it fair to say you probably drove -you took a ride in his car several times a week? A. I don't know where he went, but I know where he took me. Q. Wherever you needed to go, you would go in his car, right? A. (Nodding head.) Q. Is that a yes? A. Where I was living at that time, it was on 3934 Nioi Place. Q. Right. And if you needed to go somewhere, Gerard would take you in his silver -A. Yes. Q. -- car; is that correct? A. Because my husband died in 2002, and he was the only one that took me around. Q. Okay. Now, you told us that you ended up later on seeing a video, right, you told us that you watched a couple of videos after, you know, after June 2013 and you saw videos of a person taking a mailbox, right? You saw those videos, correct? A. No. Q. You did not see the videos? Oh, I'm sorry, you said that you heard that Gerard was accused of stealing a mailbox; is that correct? A. Well, I saw the video. Q. Okay. Do you remember the first time that you saw the video, ma'am? A. Is that the first time Bobby talked to me? Q. No, I'm asking you, do you remember the first time that you saw video of a mailbox being taken? A. It was when I was living with my daughter. It was -- well, I'm living with her for six years, so it was that time. Q. So sometime in 2013 you started living with your daughter? A. (Nodding head.) Q. Is that -- is that -- does that sound right? When did you stop living at Nioi Place? A. When I stopped? Well, I couldn't walk up the stairs. Q. Okay. Do you remember the year that you stopped living there? page 34 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 36 of 64 #: 6072 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00102:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00103:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00104:01 02 03 A. Was maybe six or seven years. Q. Okay. Then you told us that you lived for a little bit with your son Gerard in his condominium, correct? A. No, I wasn't living with Gerard in the condominium. Q. Oh, not in the condominium, okay, but then for a little bit you lived with him and then you lived with your daughter in Kailua, right? A. I was living with my daughter then. Q. Okay. So you're saying that when you were living with your daughter, that's the first time that you saw video of a mailbox being taken? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So did you have -- you've met your son's attorney Alexander Silver, correct? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember the first time you met him? MR. McDONALD: Objection as to relevance. BY MR. HIRONAKA: Q. You can answer the question, ma'am. A. I met him when I was with my daughter. Q. When you were with your daughter, okay. And do you remember how many times you've met with Mr. Silver? A. He came to the house to bring the videos. Q. How many times did he come to the house? A. Maybe two times. Q. Maybe two times? A. Two or three times. Q. And you're saying that he played the video for you? A. Yeah, he turned -- he put the video on and let her see it. Q. Okay. And so you watched the videos, and that's when you said that's not my son, that's not Gerard, correct? A. Yes. Q. And it was -- it was -- am I correct, ma'am, in saying that it was also at this time that you said that you had told Bobby that the car was white; is that correct? A. Well, when I met Bobby and he was texting, I was not living with my daughter then. Q. No, no, no, I understand ma'am. My question is -- and if you don't understand my question, then I apologize, but my question is the first time that you said that you told Bobby, that you mistakenly told Bobby that the car was white is after you viewed the videos with Mr. Silver, correct? A. Yes. Q. That was the first time you ever said that, correct? A. Yes. Q. You said, oh, I made a mistake and I told him it was a white car instead of a silver car, correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So hang on one second, ma'am. Okay, ma'am, I'm sorry to jump around, I just have a couple more questions. After your conversation with Bobby in the lobby -A. Yes. Q. -- your son came to get you from the lobby, right? A. Yes. page 35 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 37 of 64 #: 6073 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00105:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 Q. He parked the car and he came to get you. He walked in and the car wasn't that far away, right? He had parked it up a ramp and you went right out the door with your son Gerard, correct? A. Yeah, I don't know where he parked, but he came and get me. Q. And he walked you out, right? A. Yes, and he walked me to the car. Q. Okay. And Mrs. Puana, you had also -- you told us today that you know it's not your son in the video because your son has broader shoulders and he has a different walk. A. Yes. Q. Is that what you said? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And previously do you remember telling the attorneys in your deposition five years ago that the person in the video is younger? Do you remember saying that? A. Is younger? Q. Do you remember -- do you remember telling -saying that five years ago, testifying that it's not your son because the person in the video is younger. Do you remember saying that? A. No, I don't remember saying that. Q. Okay. Can you tell by looking at the video how old the person in the video is? A. I couldn't see how old he was. Q. Okay. A. That, I couldn't say. Q. Okay. MR. HIRONAKA: All right, thank you, ma'am. I have no further questions. MR. McDONALD: Thank you. 14. PAGE 105:19 TO 110:12 (RUNNING 00:04:37.592) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00106:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. All right. Good morning, Ms. Puana. Are you doing okay? Are you okay to continue? A. Yes, I am. Q. Okay. I'm Cynthia Kagiwada. I'm the attorney who's representing Katherine Kealoha. And with me is Anthony Kwon, he's another attorney who's going to help me with some of the exhibits. And as other attorneys have said, if you don't understand a question or you can't hear me, please ask me to repeat it. I'd be happy to do that for you. A. Okay. Q. So before coming here today, you met with some of the attorneys from the Government, correct? A. Yes. Q. When did you meet with these attorneys? A. I met them two days ago. Q. Two days ago. And do you remember how long you met with them for? A. Well, they couldn't stay very long, so they stayed about 20 minutes. Q. Okay. And before that had you met with them before two days ago as well? A. Yes. Q. Okay. When did -- when did you meet with them earlier? A. Oh, that was about -- I think that's only time I met them. Q. Okay. And did you discuss what your testimony was going to be today? page 36 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 38 of 64 #: 6074 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 24 25 00107:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00108:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00109:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 A. Yeah, some of it. Q. Yes. And -A. But they couldn't stay too long. Q. And before today did you discuss your deposition today with anyone else? A. No, I didn't. Q. Okay. So you did not talk to any of the other agents in this case? A. No. Q. Did you discuss your deposition testimony with anyone from your family? A. With my daughter. Q. With which daughter? A. My daughter Carolyn -- Charlotte. Q. And is that the daughter that you currently live with? A. Yeah. Q. In Kailua? A. She brought me here. Q. Okay. So I know you've testified both on cross-examination and direct examination about a lawsuit. A. Yes. Q. And you filed that lawsuit with your son Gerard, correct? A. Yes. Q. And you filed that lawsuit against your granddaughter Katherine, correct? A. Yes, I did. Q. Katherine did not file that lawsuit against you, did she? A. I filed a lawsuit against her. Q. Right. So she did not start the lawsuit. You and Gerard started the lawsuit, correct? A. Gerard didn't. I did. Q. Gerard did not start the lawsuit? A. He didn't. I did. Q. It was your idea to start the lawsuit? A. It was my decision. Q. Okay. And do you remember where that lawsuit occurred? A. Um. Q. Let me help you out. Was it across the street? A. Pardon? Q. Was -- did the lawsuit occur across the street in state court? A. Well, I don't know the district very much -Q. Okay. A. -- so I couldn't say that. Q. Was it -A. I don't know. Q. -- a different court -- different building than we're in today? A. Yes, yes. Yes. Q. Yes. And was there a trial in that lawsuit? A. Yes. Q. Yeah. And you went to the trial, correct? A. Yes, I did. Q. Do you remember when that lawsuit, when the trial started? A. It was somewhere around -- it was about five years ago. Q. Okay. A. Five or six years ago. Q. And do you remember testifying in that lawsuit page 37 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 39 of 64 #: 6075 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00110:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 as a witness? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And would it sound right if I said that maybe you testified on February 3rd, 2015? A. Could you repeat that question. Q. Does February 3rd, 2015, sound like the right date for when you testified? A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. About that. Q. Okay. So on direct examination you talked a little bit about a Bank of Hawaii account. A. Yes. Q. And as I understand, on direct you testified that you signed a card so you could be on that account. A. I signed the card, but I asked her what was this paper for, because she knew that I didn't know much about legal things. Q. But I'm talking just right now about the bank account. Did you go to the Bank of Hawaii to sign the card? A. Yes, I did. 15. PAGE 113:23 TO 122:25 (RUNNING 00:12:32.320) 23 24 25 00114:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00115:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 Q. Now, do you remember -- you said on direct that you signed this account in order to get the reverse mortgage. Do you remember that? And you can put that aside now. I'm not asking you a question about this. MR. McDONALD: Listen to the questions. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Okay. Do you remember the reverse mortgage that you talked about on direct? A. About the reverse mortgage. Q. Right. And do you remember when the reverse mortgage closed, giving instructions on what was supposed to happen with that money? A. Yes, because they wrote me a letter. Q. Well, I'm talking about when the reverse mortgage first happened, do you remember giving instructions on where that money should go? A. That money was supposed to go to the reverse mortgage -Q. Okay, perhaps -A. -- to pay of -Q. -- if I could show you what we're going to mark as Defense Exhibit 1002. (Defense Exhibit 1002 marked.) MR. McDONALD: Was this previously produced to the United States? MS. KAGIWADA: It was not previously produced, but it was produced as an exhibit in the state trial. MR. McDONALD: Okay. So we would object for not having previously received this. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Ms. Puana, could you take a look at the top of that page. Do you see what the heading is? Okay, do you see at the top that the -- where it says Island Title Corporation? A. Island Title, yes. Q. And do you see under that where it says "disbursement instructions"? Just at the top of the page where it says disbursement instructions? A. I signed that. page 38 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 40 of 64 #: 6076 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00116:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00117:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00118:01 02 03 04 Q. A. Q. So that is your signature on this document? That is. I signed it. Okay. MS. KAGIWADA: I would move this into evidence, Exhibit 1002. (Move to admit Defense Exhibit 1002.) MR. McDONALD: Object on lack of foundation. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. And do you see where, under disbursement instructions, I know it's a little small, where it says property address, 3934 Nioi Place, Honolulu, Hawaii? Was that your house? A. Yes. Q. And do you see at the bottom there's a copy of a check that's written "void" across it? A. That's a Bank of Hawaii. Q. Yes. And I know it's very small, but can you see what the names are on the check? A. Katherine N and I. Q. Correct. So these were your instructions on what to do with the money from the reverse mortgage, correct? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: No. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. And this was your instructions to put the money into the Bank of Hawaii account, correct? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: I don't remember ever doing that. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. But you do agree that this is your two signatures on this document? A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. Yeah, the two signatures, she could have done it herself. Q. So did you understand that you instructed the reverse mortgage bank to send the money to the joint account? A. No, I don't remember ever saying that. Q. Okay. But that is your signature? A. Yes, that is my signature. Q. Okay. Now, do you know why you've signed it twice? A. No. Q. Okay. Well, do you understand that you signed it as Florence Puana, successor trustee? A. Yes. Q. And that was for your husband's account, was it not, the John Puana Trust? A. No, I don't know. Q. You don't know. A. I -- if I really understood that, I would never have signed. She could have sign -- she could have had that paper, me signed, and then she does what she wants afterwards. How about that? Q. Well, Ms. Kealoha's signature is nowhere on these disbursement instructions -A. Yeah. Q. -- correct? It's only your signature on here twice, correct? Is that right? page 39 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 41 of 64 #: 6077 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00119:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00120:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 A. Q. I don't remember doing that. Okay. I'll move on from there. Do you remember signing this document? A. She must have brought it to me and I signed it and she did whatever she wanted afterwards. Q. But do you have a recollection of actually signing this document? A. Yes, that's my signature. Q. Okay. And was Katherine present when you signed this document? If you don't remember -A. No. Q. You don't remember if she was present? A. No. Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions, too, about the Greenwood condo. You indicated that you wanted to buy this condo for your son Gerard, correct? A. Yes, I did want to. Q. Right. And you did buy that condo with the money from the reverse mortgage for Gerard, correct? A. She told me she's paying for it, but she didn't. Q. Let me ask you this, Ms. Puana. Where does your son Gerard Puana live today? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Relevance. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. You -- you can answer the question. Where does Gerard live today? A. She live -- he lives in the condominium. Q. In the Greenwood condominium that you bought for him? A. Yes. Q. With the money from the reverse mortgage; is that right? A. Because I paid for it myself. Q. You paid for the condo out of the reverse mortgage, isn't that true, with the money that you got from the reverse mortgage? A. I did not get any money from the reverse mortgage, none. Q. So is it your testimony today that you spent $360,000 -A. That's -- that's the money that I told her that I would give her, and she said she would pay the condominium off. Q. But the -A. She would pay the reverse mortgage, and the rest of the money she would -- she would refinance her home. Q. Okay, ma'am, but my question is wasn't the money from the reverse mortgage used to buy a condominium at the Greenwood for Gerard? A. It was supposed to, yes. Q. But it was -- he's living there today, correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Let me ask you, didn't your son Gerard ask to borrow some money? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Hearsay. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Didn't Gerard borrow some money from you to buy furniture for his condo? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Relevance, lack of foundation. THE WITNESS: No, he did not. BY MS. KAGIWADA: page 40 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 42 of 64 #: 6078 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 21 22 23 24 25 00121:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00122:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Well, you have loaned Gerard money in the past, haven't you? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Relevance. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Did you loan your son Gerard money in the past when he needed -A. I did, but that was all for my home, for the leaks and the -- and the stone wall I built. That was all the money I spent. I gave the money to Gerard to pay it off. Q. But didn't you sometimes give him money for other loans as well? A. No. MR. McDONALD: Objection as to relevance. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Okay. So do you remember Gerard asking for your help in paying maintenance fees for the Greenwood? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Hearsay. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Do you remember Gerard asking for you to help pay his maintenance fees for the Greenwood? A. No. Q. Okay. May I please see 121 and 52. (Off-the-record discussion.) MS. KAGIWADA: Just a moment. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Now, do you remember, when you signed the reverse mortgage, do you remember seeing documents for the reverse mortgage? A. No, the -- all -- all the bills I had was "this is not a bill." Q. But I'm talking about before you actually got the reverse mortgage, do you remember signing the documents that would get you the reverse mortgage? A. Yes, I did. Q. Do you remember meeting with a woman named Shari Motooka-Higa? A. Yes. Q. And she was with Central Pacific Bank, correct? A. Yes. Q. And was she the one -A. That's when it was finalized. Q. And was she the one who helped you with the reverse mortgage? A. Yes. Q. And do you remember talking to her about the reverse mortgage before you signed the documents? A. Could you repeat that. Q. Do you remember talking to her before you signed any documents? A. Talking to who? Q. To Shari Motooka-Higa. A. Yeah, she spoke to me. 16. PAGE 128:07 TO 128:12 (RUNNING 00:00:17.808) 07 08 09 10 11 12 BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. So do you remember you testified on direct that you sold your house? You sold 3934 Nioi Place, is that correct, ma'am? Ma'am? Is it correct that you sold your house, 3934 -A. Yes, yes, I did. page 41 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 43 of 64 #: 6079 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 17. PAGE 128:24 TO 129:04 (RUNNING 00:00:21.185) 24 25 00129:01 02 03 04 Q. You don't remember. Okay. But you did sell your house in 2013, correct? A. No. Q. No, you did not sell your house in 2013? A. Long after that. Q. Okay. 18. PAGE 129:21 TO 130:13 (RUNNING 00:00:52.971) 21 22 23 24 25 00130:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 Q. But you did sell your house in -- at some point, correct? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Compound question. Is there a pending question? BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Ms. Puana, on direct you testified that you thought you were going to lose your house; is that correct? A. That's true. Q. But indeed you sold your house, correct? You did not lose your house. A. I sold my house because I had to. I did not want to sell my house, but I did. Q. But you sold your house for money and you recovered money from the sale of that house, correct? A. That's true. Q. Okay. Thank you. 19. PAGE 133:24 TO 136:22 (RUNNING 00:03:05.474) 24 25 00134:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00135:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Ms. Puana, again, if you don't understand me or you can't hear me, just ask me to repeat the question. A. Yes. Q. I'll be happy to do that. So we had a lunch break. Were you able to speak to the U.S. attorney over the lunch break? A. Yes. Q. And did you speak about your deposition here today? A. I didn't take my papers with me so I didn't, no. Q. But did you speak to Mr. McDonald or Mr. Orabona -A. Yes -Q. -- about the case? A. -- yes. MR. McDONALD: Just for the record, just for the record purposes, the United States attorneys did not speak over the break with the witness about the case. MS. KAGIWADA: Okay. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Is that correct, Ms. Puana, you do not? A. Yes, that's correct. Q. Okay, thank you. So, Ms. Puana, we've had -- you've testified a little bit about the reverse mortgage process. Do you remember first meeting with somebody by the name of Percy to discuss -A. Yes, he came -- he came on the first day and the second day he didn't come. Q. But did he explain the reverse mortgage process to you? A. He -- no, I had a phone call. page 42 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 44 of 64 #: 6080 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00136:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q. A. Okay. And whoever was from the mainland, they called me. Q. And -A. And they told me that I can stay -- I should stay in the home as long as I live. Q. Okay. And so the person from the mainland explained that you could stay in the home as long as you lived? A. Yeah. Yes. And I -- I got where you cannot leave your home -- home and different things that I heard on the phone, and that's all I learned about the first mortgage -Q. And then you also spoke to Percy and he explained the reverse mortgage process to you, right? A. Well, she -- she called, the next day she came. Q. I'm speaking about Percy. I believe his last name was Ihara. A. Yes. Q. He also told you about the reverse mortgage process? A. Yes, she told him, yes. Q. And then you -- I think you're referring to you met with Shari Motooka-Higa two times as well, right? A. Well, she came -Q. Well, let's put it this way -A. -- she didn't come in -Q. -- did she meet with you one time? A. Yes, one time. The only time I saw her is when we finalized at the Liberty Bank, Liberty loan bank, and when the -- when the reverse mortgage was finalized, I met with Katherine and Shari. Q. Well, so the first time you met with her was in May of 2009, correct? A. I don't remember that meeting. 20. PAGE 139:08 TO 140:16 (RUNNING 00:01:39.375) 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00140:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 Q. And Shari Motooka-Higa, when she met with you, she indicated that the federal government is very strict about reverse mortgages. MR. McDONALD: Objection. Relevance. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Do you remember that? A. I don't remember that. Q. Do you remember that Ms. Motooka-Higa -A. No, I don't. Q. -- talked to you about the reverse mortgage? A. All I was told that Kathy told me it would take three months, not longer than six months -Q. Do you remember Shari Motooka-Higa telling you that you would have to go through separate counseling? A. No. Q. Do you remember that you signed a certificate of your counseling with HUD? You signed a certificate after you met with Shari Motooka-Higa, didn't you? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Relevance. You can answer the question if you know and if you remember. THE WITNESS: No, I don't. I don't remember that. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. And you went through counseling, though, over the phone, you testified to that on direct? page 43 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 45 of 64 #: 6081 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 A. I tried. I tried. Q. Well, I remember -- do you remember telling us that you talked to somebody on the phone about the reverse mortgage? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Vague -THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. McDONALD: -- as to telling some party about the reverse mortgage. 21. PAGE 144:16 TO 144:18 (RUNNING 00:00:07.477) 16 17 18 MS. KAGIWADA: And this will be Defense Exhibit 1007. (Defense Exhibit 1007 marked.) 22. PAGE 144:24 TO 148:20 (RUNNING 00:05:28.633) 24 25 00145:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00146:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. And Ms. Puana, this document is entitled "Central Pacific Home Loans" in the upper left corner, correct? A. Yes. Q. And then do you see under that where it has your name? A. Yes, it's on the top left. Q. Yes. And your address, 3934 Nioi Place? And then under that do you see -- I know it's hard to read, it's very small, but under your name it says 3934 Nioi Place, do you see that? A. Yes. Oh, here. So small. Q. Yeah. A. Yes. Q. And again, at the bottom left, do you see a signature? A. Yes. Q. That's your signature, correct? A. Yes. Q. And it's dated May 5th, 2009; is that right? A. 5 -- 5/3/59, 69. Is that 69? Q. Now, do you remember when Shari Motooka-Higa met with you, she told you that the reverse mortgage could build up interest? She told you that, correct? A. I'm telling you now, I did not have any kind of talk about that except the one on the -- the man that called from the mainland. That's the only time I heard about -- that's how I found -- found out that I could live in that house as long as I lived. Q. And you don't remember Shari Motooka-Higa also told you you could live in that house as long as you lived and would never be kicked out of the house? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Hearsay. THE WITNESS: I don't recall. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. And do you remember that she told you that -MR. McDONALD: Objection. Hearsay. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. -- interest could build up, and Ms. Motooka-Higa showed you this amortization schedule, didn't she? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Compound. I believe there are two questions pending. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. She showed you this amortization schedule, correct? A. I don't recall. Q. And if you could look at this -- I know it's going to be difficult, but if you could look at the -two, three, four, five, seventh column that says loan page 44 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 46 of 64 #: 6082 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 25 00147:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00148:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 balance. A. Loan balance. MR. McDONALD: I don't believe this document has been admitted into evidence, so we'd object at this time. MS. KAGIWADA: Okay. I would move to admit this document based on Ms. Puana's agreement that this is her signature at the bottom of the document. MR. McDONALD: No objection. (Move to admit Defense Exhibit 1007.) BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. And do you see, Ms. Puana, on that first line, column 7, it says loan balance $534,596.01? I'm just asking if you see that number on there. If you're having trouble finding it, perhaps Mr. McDonald can help you to find it. THE WITNESS: Can you find that? Is that the total? MR. McDONALD: I'm sorry, what is the pending question? MS. KAGIWADA: I'm asking her about the loan balance, if she can see that loan balance. MR. McDONALD: We would object. I mean, the document speaks for itself. MS. KAGIWADA: Okay. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. So do you remember Ms. Motooka-Higa indicated that the home value could continue to rise and rise over the course of ten years? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Hearsay. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. And that it would probably -- it could rise up to a million dollars, over a million dollars? A. Again, I told you, and I'll say again, I never received anything until I got that letter -Q. Ma'am, I'm not -- I'm not asking about documents you received right now. I'm asking you about your conversation with Ms. Motooka-Higa. A. Yeah, but had I had this papers, I would have known about it, but I never received anything. That's the reason why she had her mail sent to her house. Q. Ms. Puana, I'm asking you about this document, and you do not -- and Ms. Motooka-Higa reviewing this document with you. A. But I had not seen that before. 23. PAGE 151:09 TO 152:15 (RUNNING 00:01:51.331) 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00152:01 Q. And do you remember her showing you this Exhibit 1007, the amortization table, and telling you that the mortgage could build and build and build over the years and get to be as high as $983,000? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Hearsay. You can ans -- you can answer the question. THE WITNESS: If I known that, I would have sold my house before that, had I known that I owed that much. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. So is it your answer that you did not know this? A. (Shaking head.) Q. Okay. MS. KAGIWADA: I would like to show the witness Exhibit 1001 again at page 56. MR. McDONALD: Which portion of page 56 page 45 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 47 of 64 #: 6083 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 does counsel intend to direct the witness to? MS. KAGIWADA: Starting with line 1. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. So weren't you asked by Mr. Sumida: "Okay. Do you remember her showing this amortization table and showing you that after years and years of building the interest and not making any payment, the mortgage could be as high as almost a million dollars, $983,000, do you remember her talking to you about that?" And you answered: "I know that. I know that the thing could get higher and higher, but we never got any. All the document we had said this is not a bill." 24. PAGE 152:18 TO 153:10 (RUNNING 00:00:35.487) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00153:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Do you remember this testimony? A. Ever since that testimony, I lost. I lost that one. And -- and I -MR. McDONALD: Ms. Puana, just answer -just answer the question -THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. McDONALD: -- that she asked you, okay? THE WITNESS: Okay. MR. McDONALD: Okay. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Do you remember testifying at trial and answering this question? Read -A. And what? Q. Please read the -- your answer starting at line 7. 25. PAGE 153:15 TO 160:25 (RUNNING 00:11:36.124) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00154:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 THE WITNESS: Remember... BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Didn't you testify, Ms. Puana, that you knew the thing would get higher and higher? A. No, I don't remember any of that. Q. Okay. A. I really don't. Q. But you do remember signing this paper, correct? This is your signature? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Vague as to "this paper." BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Exhibit 1007, that is your signature at the bottom of that amortization schedule in Exhibit 1007? MR. McDONALD: Asked and answered, objection. You can answer the question. If you -if you know the answer to the question, you can answer that question. Okay? THE WITNESS: But I don't remember it. MS. McDONALD: Could you repeat -BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Okay. Let me ask it again. This is your signature at the bottom -A. Yes, I know it is. Q. Okay. And do you remember being informed that even though the mortgage would get higher and higher and that interest would continue to build up, that you would not have to worry, that you could live in the house as long as you lived? page 46 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 48 of 64 #: 6084 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 20 21 22 23 24 25 00155:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00156:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00157:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 MR. McDONALD: Objection. The question contains hearsay. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. You may answer the question. Do you need me to repeat it? A. I can answer it, but I'll tell you again, that I never -- I never knew how much my -- my amount was. Q. But -A. Until I saw -- I finally got that letter saying that if I don't pay that yearly -Q. Okay. Ma'am, let me break this down for you a bit -- a little bit. Do you remember -- you knew that the mortgage could get higher and higher and that interest would continue -A. If it wouldn't be paid, but I was told it was paid all the time. Q. That's not the -- listen to my -- you knew that the -- the mortgage -- the interest would continue to get higher and higher? A. Well, eventually, if I wouldn't pay anything it would have. Q. So you knew that. And you knew that, even if that happened, you could live in that house as long as you lived? A. Yes, I did. Q. Okay. A. I was told that. Q. So you knew at the time that you sold your Nioi Place house that you did not have to move out of the house? A. Yes, I was told that. Q. Now, as I understand some of your testimony from direct, you indicated, I believe, that you wanted to get the reverse mortgage so you could buy the condominium for your son Gerard, correct? A. Yes. Q. And the money was bought with the reverse mortgage, correct? A. Yes. Q. So the Greenwood condo did not have a mortgage on it, correct? A. No, it doesn't. Q. And you told Gerard that he was going to have to pay for his own house; isn't that right? A. That's right. And Kathy told me that she could help me to -- to help Gerry to get that apartment. And I told her how can I do that? She said she could help me to -- for me to get the money and she would pay the more -- the -- the -Q. Okay, ma'am, I'm sorry to interrupt, but my question was that Gerard agreed to pay for his own house, correct? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And that you told him he was supposed to take over the loan; isn't that right? A. Yes. MR. McDONALD: Objection. Vague as to "loan." BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. You told him that he was supposed to take over the payment for the house, correct? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Vague as to "house." BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. For the Greenwood condo, you told him that he page 47 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 49 of 64 #: 6085 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00158:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00159:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00160:01 should take over the payment for the Greenwood condo; isn't that correct? A. Gerard would take over. Q. Yes. A. And pay -- pay -Q. And you told him he was going to make his own monthly payments; isn't that right? A. Pardon? Q. He was going to make his own monthly payments for the Greenwood condo; isn't that correct? A. Right, he -- Gerard would pay Kathy. Q. He would pay for the loan himself, though, because he was going to live in the condo. MR. McDONALD: Objection. Misstates the evidence. THE WITNESS: He would live in the condo. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. He was going to live in the condo and -A. Yes, if -Q. -- and isn't that why he was going to make the payments for the condo? A. I never heard that. Q. And -A. I didn't know that. Q. -- your granddaughter Kathy was not going to live in the condo, was she? A. No, she wasn't. Q. Yeah. She had her own house, correct? A. Yes, she did. Q. And you made it clear to both Gerard and Kathy that he was going to pay for his Greenwood condo; isn't that right? A. That's right. And Gerard would pay her every month and that was the agreement. Q. But you made it clear to Gerard that he was going to have to pay for his own condo loan? A. Yes. MR. McDONALD: Objection. Asked and answered. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Now I'd like to move back to something we touched on briefly before. You would loan money to Gerard, wouldn't you -MR. McDONALD: Objection. Relevance. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. -- from time to time? Do you remember loaning money to Gerard? A. I never loaned money to Gerard. Q. You have not loaned him any money? A. No. Q. Weren't there times that was -- where Gerard was short on money and you would have to loan him money? A. No. Whatever money he had, he deserved. Q. Okay. I'd like to show you Exhibit 1001 again, page -- starting at page 61, line 23. MR. McDONALD: Here you go. 23, right here. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. So starting on page -- line 23, page 61. A. I see. 22. Okay. So starting on... Q. If you could read that question continuing over to the next page, 62, and your answer on line 2. A. I never told Gerry -- Gerard that I could give him money when he want. Q. Did you finish reading that part of the page 48 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 50 of 64 #: 6086 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 testimony? A. Yes. Q. Does that refresh your memory of what you previously testified to? A. Yes. Q. And so you did admit that you loaned money to Gerard, correct? A. I would never tell him he would have money, because I didn't have money myself to give him. Q. Hold on just a minute. Okay. And do you also see on page 62, going on to line 9, if you could read that portion all the way to -A. 9? Q. -- line 14. Have you read from line 9 to line 14? A. I never ever said that whenever Gerard wanted money I could -- I would give it to him. Q. So does this refresh your memory, though, of what you previously testified to in court? A. Yes, I know what it says. I know. Q. And so, Ms. Puana, are you denying that you said that in court? A. I don't remember what I said in court. 26. PAGE 162:10 TO 167:08 (RUNNING 00:05:39.275) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00163:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. I'm sorry, Ms. Puana, I guess you didn't understand my question. Did you rely upon -A. Yes, I did. Q. -- Gerard -A. Yes, I did. Q. -- to keep track of loans that you made to him? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Relevance. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. So you did rely upon him to keep track of the loans? A. I relied on him because I couldn't drive, so he took me everywhere. Q. And I believe you testified earlier that you stopped driving around age 90; is that correct? A. When I was 90 years old. Q. And he was the means of your transportation, correct? A. Pardon? Q. He -- he drove you after you stopped driving; is that correct? A. Yeah, he drove me everywhere. Q. And he drove you in the car that you previously owned, correct? A. He drove -- no, he had his own car. Q. And -A. And later when I stopped driving, he sold it and he got another car. Q. And the car that he drove you around in, that was the silver car, wasn't it? A. No, he had different car. Q. Okay. What color was the car that you drove, the car that you owned? A. It was -- it was -MR. McDONALD: Objection as to relevance. THE WITNESS: -- station wagon or something. BY MS. KAGIWADA: page 49 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 51 of 64 #: 6087 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 25 00164:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00165:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00166:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. I'm asking about the color of the car. MR. McDONALD: Objection as to relevance. Vague as to "car." BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Ms. Puana, you indicated that you stopped driving when you were about age 90, correct? And didn't give your car to Gerard to drive? A. Yes, and then he sold it. Q. And the car that he drove, wasn't it silver in color? A. No. Q. It was not silver? MR. McDONALD: Objection as to "the car," vague. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Ms. Puana, I'm referring to the car that you previously owned that you gave to Gerard. It was silver, wasn't it? MR. McDONALD: Objection as to relevance. THE WITNESS: My sister gave him the car when she passed away. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. And your sister's name was Rose Fryer? A. He still -- he still has it, the silver car that I said was white. Q. Was the silver car the car that belonged to your sister? A. Yes. MR. McDONALD: Objection. Relevance. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. And Mr. -- your son Gerard Puana, he drove that car for a number of years, didn't he? A. Well -MR. McDONALD: Objection as to relevance. THE WITNESS: -- after my sister died, that's the only car he had. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Okay. And what year did your sister die? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Relevance. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. You may answer the question. Do you remember what year your sister died? A. Yes. Five years ago. Q. So approximately in 2014? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And so do you remember testifying about the deposition that you went to with Ms. Kealoha on June 19th -A. Yes. Q. -- 2015? Was that the same car that Gerard was driving at that time? A. Yes. Q. And it was silver, wasn't it? A. Yes, but I always say white. Q. Right, correct. And he had been driving that car for a number of years, correct? A. Yes. Q. And so Katherine, your granddaughter would have seen him driving that car, correct? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Calls for speculation. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. You may answer the question. A. I can't answer the question. page 50 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 52 of 64 #: 6088 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00167:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 Q. Do you know that if Katherine saw Gerard driving that silver car? A. I guess so. I don't know if she did or not. Q. But that was a car that he drove during that time period, during the period of 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014? A. Yes, because my sister died then. MR. McDONALD: Does counsel have any further questions of this witness? MS. KAGIWADA: Yes, just one moment. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. So, Ms. Puana, I'd like to show you -- we're talking about money and money that you had loaned or hadn't loaned to your son Gerard, so I'd like to show you an exhibit. MS. KAGIWADA: And this will be Defense Exhibit 1008. (Defense Exhibit 1008 marked.) 27. PAGE 203:09 TO 214:11 (RUNNING 00:17:04.216) 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00204:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00205:01 02 03 04 BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Okay. Now, Ms. Puana, I'd like to turn to a different area which you've already testified about on direct examination, and that's the MetLife statements. MS. KAGIWADA: So if I may, I'd like to show Ms. Puana Government's Exhibit E 1-19. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. So, Ms. Puana, as you testified, these were statements from MetLife, correct? A. This states that this is not a bill. Q. But this is something you've already testified to as being from MetLife, is that what it says in the upper left-hand corner? Ms. Puana, I'm only asking if this is from MetLife. Is that what's written in the upper corner? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And I'd like you to look underneath MetLife, do you see your name, where it says Florence M. Puana? A. Yes. Q. And under that, your name, it's addressed to your address, right, 3934 Nioi Place? A. Yes. Q. So this came to your house, correct? Ms. Puana? A. Yeah, that -- that came to my house. Q. Right. A. And -- yes, it did finally. Q. Well, Ms. Puana, could you please look at the date in the -- I believe it's the -- under where it says "this is not a bill," doesn't it say the statement period is October 31st, 2009 to November 30th, 2009? A. Yes. Q. So you received this statement in 2009, didn't you? A. Yes, when it finally got to my address. Q. But the date on this bill is October 31st, 2009, to November 30th, 2009, correct? A. Yes. Q. So this is right after the reverse mortgage closed, correct? A. Yes. Q. And is your testimony today that you never received this bill until later? MR. McDONALD: Objection. That misstates page 51 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 53 of 64 #: 6089 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00206:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00207:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 her testimony. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Ms. Puana, you testified earlier that you did not see this statement until later. When did you see this statement? MR. McDONALD: Objection. That misstates her testimony. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Let me ask it this way, Ms. Puana. In the time period October 31st and November 2009 you were still living at 3934 Nioi Place, correct? A. Yes. Q. Is it your testimony today that you did not receive this bill in 2009? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Misstates -THE WITNESS: 2009? BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. I'm asking a question. Is it -MR. McDONALD: Misstates testimony. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. -- is it your testimony that you did not receive this bill in 2009? MR. McDONALD: Objection. That misstates her testimony. THE WITNESS: Well, actually -BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. No, I'm asking a question. A. Yes, I did receive it. Q. You did receive it? A. Yes, I did receive it. Q. And you did receive it in 2009, correct? A. It has my address. Q. I'm sorry, if I could turn to page 2. And same question, this is also from MetLife, isn't it, page 2? Is this from MetLife in the upper left-hand corner? A. Yes. Q. And again is this addressed to you at 3934 Nioi Place? A. Yes. Q. And do you see in the middle where it says statement period, February 28, 2010, to March 31st, 2010? A. 2010? Q. That's what it says there, doesn't it? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And the original principal showing this bill is -- well, on this document is $537,000 -537,304.50, do you see that? A. So that's when I decided to sell my house. Q. Okay. But -- and then do you see where it says current total loan balance is 551,053.50, that was the current loan balance, correct? A. Yes. Q. And again, you received this bill, didn't you, in 2010? A. I -- I don't know. Q. Okay. If you could turn to page 3. Now, this is again a statement from MetLife, correct? A. Yes. Q. And it's addressed to you, Florence M. Puana, at 3934 Nioi Place, correct? A. Yes. Q. And it's for the statement period of March 31st, 2010, to April 30th, 2010, correct? A. Yes, except the other one said "this is not a page 52 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 54 of 64 #: 6090 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 21 22 23 24 25 00208:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00209:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00210:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 bill." Q. Okay. And then do you see towards the bottom where it says current total loan balance, it says 553,800 -- I can barely read it, 66 and $0.31, do you see that? A. Yes, I did. Q. And so you received this bill after April 2010, didn't you? A. I received that. Q. Yes. A. And like I said, that's how I decided to sell my home. Q. Okay. Now, isn't it true that when you were living at Nioi Place, Gerard was living with you in the period of 2009 to 2012? MR. McDONALD: Objection as to relevance. THE WITNESS: No. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Gerard was not living with you at that time? A. I wasn't living at my house. Q. Not in 2009? A. No. Q. Well, what -- didn't you testify earlier that you moved to Kailua in 2013? A. Well, I didn't -- I just came to Kailua. Q. But that was in 2013? A. Yeah 2000 -- yes. Q. So in 2009 and 2010, you were still living at Nioi Place, correct? You were still living at 3934 Nioi Place in 2009 and 2010; isn't that right? A. Yes. Q. And didn't you testify earlier that sometimes people would help to pick up your mail? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Misstates her testimony. THE WITNESS: Yeah, that -BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. So sometimes would Gerard help you to pick up your mail? A. No, Gerard never picked my mail. Q. Okay. Well, I would like to refer you to Exhibit 1001 at page 104. A. Nobody was taking my mail. Q. Line 23. Didn't you testify in state court, so Gerard must have -- "Question: So Gerard must have helped you pick up your mail from time to time, right? "Answer: Yes, he did." So you did state that; isn't that correct? A. It says here I did, yes. Q. Okay. Now, moving on to -- you've already testified that you decided to file a lawsuit against your granddaughter Kathy -A. Yes, I did. Q. -- in 2013, correct? A. (Nodding head.) Q. And I believe you testified that you filed the lawsuit because you didn't receive any statements or papers, was that correct? A. That's correct. Q. Okay. And you've also testified that you wrote a letter to your granddaughter Kathy. A. Yes, I did. Q. In September 2015, correct? But you didn't write that letter yourself, did you? A. My daughter wrote it and I told her what to page 53 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 55 of 64 #: 6091 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00211:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00212:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00213:01 02 write. Q. And by your daughter you mean your daughter Kay Hartsell wrote that letter, correct? A. Yes. Q. And is it your testimony that you told her what to write in that letter? A. Yes. Q. And then you read it and approved it? A. Yes. Q. And you signed it? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So is it your testimony today that everything you wrote in that letter is accurate? A. I told her I -Q. I'm just asking if what you wrote in that letter is accurate? A. I told her that I would like to talk it over and -Q. I'm sorry, ma'am, maybe I'm not framing my question correctly, but is everything that you wrote in that September 2012 letter accurate? A. Yes, it was. Q. Okay. MS. KAGIWADA: I know that this has already been introduced as a plaintiff's exhibit, we also have our own copy, but we can use yours as well if you have it, the September 12, 2010, letter. I'm sorry, I forget the exhibit number. MR. McDONALD: It's 1-9. MS. KAGIWADA: 1-9, okay. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. So, Mrs. Puana, this is the letter you previously testified to, correct? A. Yes, I did. Q. And if I could refer you to the third paragraph, you wrote, didn't you write: "I trusted you when you came to me in October 2009 with the idea of a reversed mortgage on my house." Do you see that line? A. Yes. Q. So is it your testimony today that Kathy came to you in October of 2009 with the idea for the reverse mortgage? A. Yes, she came to my house. Q. In October 2009, that's what you wrote in the letter, correct? A. I -- well, my daughter wrote it, so -Q. But, ma'am, did you just tell us that you approved and agreed with everything you wrote in that letter and it was accurate? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And isn't it true, though, that the reverse mortgage for your house closed in September of 2009? A. Closed? Q. By "closed" I mean that is when the reverse mortgage paid -- the company, the bank paid the money for the reverse mortgage? A. Yes. That was at the Central Pacific Bank. Q. Right. But it happened in September of 2009, correct? A. September, yes. Q. Okay. So this is not accurate when you say that Kathy came to you in October 2009 with the idea of the reverse mortgage? A. Well, it could be -- it could be an error. page 54 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 56 of 64 #: 6092 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00214:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 Anybody can write an error -Q. Okay. A. -- yes. Q. And isn't it true you further wrote here: "I trusted you when you came to me in October 2009 with the idea of a reverse mortgage on my house so I could buy a condo at the Greenwood and you could borrow around $300,000, which you said was to consolidate your debts." So didn't you tell Kathy that she had borrowed $300,000? Ma'am, isn't that what you wrote in the letter, that Kathy borrowed $300,000? A. Yes, it says here. Q. And again you told your daughter what to write, correct? A. Yes. Q. So today are you saying that $300,000 was the amount that you claimed Kathy borrowed? A. For the condominium, yes, and the rest she was going to use to refinance her home. Q. Didn't you testify before the state court that the Greenwood condominium cost $360,000? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Hearsay, improper impeachment. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. And didn't you testify at the state trial that the entire amount that was borrowed was $537,000? A. It's what it should have been. Q. Okay. But didn't you then testify that that amount must have been wrong? A. Well, like I said -MR. McDONALD: Objection. That's vague. THE WITNESS: -- anybody can make an error, because we didn't have the exact amount. 28. PAGE 214:19 TO 219:03 (RUNNING 00:05:48.466) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00215:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Okay. Perhaps it would help you if I referred you -- hold on just a minute -- to Exhibit 1001, page 135, line 2. A. Is that my -Q. Okay. Didn't you testify -- the question was: "Okay, so do you know where that number came from in your letter? "Answer: I don't know. "Question. Okay. When you read it and you approved it and you signed it, did you ask Kay where that number came from? "Answer: Like I said, I don't remember any amount of money that I told her to put down. I don't remember telling her to put those. Because she didn't know anything of the amount that I had borrowed, so I don't know how it came about that -- I don't remember telling her to put that amount. "Question: When you read it and you approved it and you signed it, did you notice that there was a number 300,000 on it before you signed it? "Answer: Again, I told you, I didn't even know that -- what number to give her, because I don't remember seeing any amount of money on that letter." A. That's the last trial -Q. "Question: Oh, are you saying that when you signed the letter that the number part was blank? "Answer: Pardon? "Question: Oh, are you saying that when you signed the letter, the place where the numbers are, page 55 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 57 of 64 #: 6093 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 24 25 00216:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00217:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00218:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 the $300,000, that that was -- that was a blank? "Answer: I don't remember any amount of money written in the letter." Didn't you testify to that? MR. McDONALD: Object. It's improper impeachment, hearsay. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Didn't you testify to that at the state trial? A. That was before the reverse mortgage. Q. Well, I'm referring to the letter that you wrote to your granddaughter Katherine on September 10th, 2012. A. But the other trial that I went, that's a different trial. I didn't even have a reverse mortgage then. Q. Right. But I'm just asking if this is what you said about your letter at the state trial? Okay, that's fine. Moving on. THE WITNESS: I never -MR. McDONALD: Okay. Just listen to the questions. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. So earlier you looked at the statements from MetLife that came to your home address, correct? A. Yes. Q. And those were coming in 2009 and into 2010, correct? And at one point you testified that you changed your address to a post office box; isn't that correct? A. I didn't change it, Kathy did. Q. Well, you testified on direct, did you not, that you signed a document agreeing to -A. But that was the other trial I went to. This is a different -Q. Ma'am, no, I'm referring to today. You testified that you signed a document changing your post -- your address to the post office address. That was just today. Perhaps it will refresh your memory if we can show you the exhibit, which is exhibit -MR. McDONALD: We would object. Argumentative to the prior exchange. Is that the right one? MS. KAGIWADA: Yes. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Isn't this your name on this exhibit? Is that your signature? Isn't that your signature on that exhibit, agreeing to change to the post office box? MR. McDONALD: Could counsel repeat the question? THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. I'm sorry. Isn't that your signature on that document? A. Yes, that's my signature. Q. And isn't that the document that changed your address to the post office box? A. The address. Q. Is it changing it to an address at Waialae Avenue? A. Yes. Q. And that's where the post office box was, correct? A. That's where Kathy's post box. I didn't have a -- page 56 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 58 of 64 #: 6094 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00219:01 02 03 Q. But -A. I -- that was at -- at the UPS. She changed her mail and that was her address there. Q. But your name is now on that -A. Yes. Q. -- post office box, correct? A. My name is there because she took me to the UPS to have my mail go to her box so she could get it, so on her way home she would pick it up. Q. Okay. But you could pick up mail at that post office box, too? A. No, I didn't have a key. I didn't have a lock. I didn't even get to that -- I couldn't even get there. 29. PAGE 220:16 TO 228:24 (RUNNING 00:09:27.562) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00221:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00222:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. Isn't it true, Ms. Puana, that you could have gone to that post office box and obtained your mail by showing your ID, even if you didn't have a key? A. She asked me for my ID. She asked me for my -- my driver's license. Q. At the post office box? A. At -- at the UPS. Q. At the UPS. A. Yes, and also my Foodland card, and -- and she had it all in paper, and she told me to sign my -- my name and she would have the mail -- my mail going to her box so on her way home she would pick it up and it would be easier. Q. But, ma'am, that's not my question. My question is did you know you had the option to present your own ID at the UPS post office -A. I didn't know what she took me for. She just told me -Q. Ma'am, ma'am, I'm sorry, I'm asking you, did you know that you could get your mail by presenting your ID at the UPS office? A. I did not know. She didn't tell me. I didn't know. I never worked with the UPS before. Q. And isn't it true, though, you went to UPS to sign the document changing your address? A. She asked me my -- my driver's license and also -Q. I'm sorry, "she" meaning? A. Katherine. Q. But didn't you have to show that ID to the UPS office? A. She took me, yes. Q. So you went to the UPS office and showed your ID? A. Yes, and she said that would be easier for her. Q. But, ma'am, that's -- the only question I'm asking is if you showed your ID at the UPS office. A. I didn't know that. Q. No, did you -- did you show your ID when you signed the document changing your address? A. Yes. Q. And it's your testimony that you did not know you could pick up your mail by showing your ID? A. Yes, but don't you have to have a key to get into the mailbox? I didn't have a key. Q. But, ma'am, did you know that you could have picked up your mail by just showing your ID even if you didn't have a key? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Asked and page 57 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 59 of 64 #: 6095 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00223:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00224:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00225:01 02 03 04 05 06 answered, badgering the witness. THE WITNESS: I did not know anything. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Okay. A. I did not know. MS. KAGIWADA: I don't think we can introduce this at this point because -- but just for identification. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Did there come a point in time where you decided to have a meeting with people in your family about the reverse mortgage? A. No, because I told her that -- she said it would take three months, no more than six months. Q. I'm sorry, maybe I'm not clear about my question. After the reverse mortgage had funded, was there a time when you met with other members of your family? A. Well, they knew about it. I told them. MR. McDONALD: Object as to vague on meeting with family. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. So do you remember, though, having a meeting with your family? MR. McDONALD: Objection as to -THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. MR. McDONALD: -- vague. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Okay. And do you remember who was -- do you remember that some of your children were present at that meeting? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Vague. THE WITNESS: What was that? BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Well, do you remember having a meeting where Charlotte, your daughter Charlotte, your -A. Yes. Q. -- daughter Kay Hartsell, her husband Rick Hartsell -A. Yes. Q. -- daughter Carolyn and your son Gerard -A. Yes. Q. -- were present? And at that meeting didn't you explain to them about the reverse mortgage? A. At that meeting, I told them what I did, I signed the paper and I got a reverse mortgage. But I found out that it was not paid, so I was going to sell my home. Q. So -- and at that meeting didn't you tell other members of your family that Katherine would put down the down payment on the reverse mortgage? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Hearsay. THE WITNESS: I did not tell anything like that to my family. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Okay. I'd like to refer you to Exhibit 1001, page 145, starting at line 20. And the question was, and you told them -- yeah, starting at line 20, and the question was: "And you told them that Kathy would put down the payment, the down payment, and he would take over the mortgage after that. You told them that, right? "Answer: I would take over the mortgage? "Question: No. That -- that Kathy would put page 58 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 60 of 64 #: 6096 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00226:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00227:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 down the down payment, and he, Gerard, would take over the mortgage after that. Isn't that what you told them at that meeting? "Answer: Yes. "Question: Okay. And you told them that -THE WITNESS: (Inaudible.) MR. McDONALD: I'm sorry, Counsel, are you on to page 146 now? MS. KAGIWADA: I'm sorry, I'm on 146 now. MR. McDONALD: Okay. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. "Okay. And you told them that Gerard would take over the loan, right? "Answer: Yes, pay Kathy monthly. "Question: Right." So you did tell them this? A. Tell my family that? Q. Yes, isn't that your testimony, that you testified to in the state court? A. The state court? Q. This is what we're looking at in Exhibit 1001. A. Yes, I mean, I didn't even have the mortgage at that time. I didn't have a reverse mortgage at the time I went to this trial. Q. Okay. But this is at some point where you had a meeting with your family. A. How can I get a meeting if I didn't have -- I didn't even have a mortgage, or I didn't have -Q. Okay. A. How can I have a meeting with my family if I didn't even have the mortgage yet. I can't understand that. Q. Okay. So what was the trial about, then, if you didn't have anything left to argue about? If you didn't have a reverse mortgage, what was the trial about? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Vague. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Ms. Puana, do you not remember what the trial was about? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Vague. THE WITNESS: I really -- it was about mostly of the checks that I made and I explained everything. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Okay. A. That was mostly of the checks. I didn't have anything to do with the mortgage because I didn't even have a mortgage that time. Q. Ms. Puana, I have one question for you too about the power of attorney. You testified earlier today that your granddaughter Kathy held the power of attorney for you, correct? A. Yes, she did. Q. And your testimony earlier, I believe, was that that power of attorney was so you could get the reverse mortgage; is that correct? A. If she -- she was -- she was going to be my attorney. Q. For the reverse mortgage, correct? A. Yes. Q. But isn't it true that you're the only one who signed any documents for the reverse mortgage? A. Yes, I -- because my son wouldn't sign it. Q. But your granddaughter Kathy never signed a document for the reverse mortgage; isn't that correct? page 59 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 61 of 64 #: 6097 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 23 24 25 00228:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. If she didn't sign, how did she be my attorney? Q. Well, I'm talking about the documents that we reviewed earlier today. Remember you testified that you had counseling with Shari Motooka-Higa and with the person on the phone and that we went through all the documents where you identified your signature, but none of those documents had Katherine Kealoha's signature on them, did they? A. I don't know. Q. All those documents were signed by you, correct? A. I can't remember. Q. Okay. A. But she was -- she was my attorney. She was going to be my attorney. Q. Okay. A. I asked her to be my attorney. And she -Q. Do you remember what the result was of the state civil trial? MR. McDONALD: Objection. Relevance. THE WITNESS: Can you repeat that question. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Do you remember what -- do you remember what the result was of the state civil trial? A. I lost it. 30. PAGE 236:02 TO 243:03 (RUNNING 00:08:18.546) 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00237:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 MS. KAGIWADA: I'm sorry, I have at least two more exhibits. I'll do this one first since we've already marked it. I'd like to show you what's been marked as Defense Exhibit 1021. (Defense Exhibit 1021 marked.) MS. KAGIWADA: And this is part of a document that is in the discovery, and it does have the Bates stamp on the bottom. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Ms. Puana, looking at that, what I've handed you to as Defense Exhibit 1021, who is that in that photograph? A. Pardon? Q. Can you identify who that is in that photograph? A. No, I don't. I don't know who he is. Q. You don't know who that is? Okay, thank you. Okay. And then I have one more exhibit to show you. MS. KAGIWADA: This will be Defense Exhibit 1022. (Defense Exhibit 1022 marked.) MS. KAGIWADA: This was one of the State's exhibits which was not introduced for this deposition, so I believe that this is in our discovery. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Ms. Puana, if I could show you this document. Do you see at the top where it says this is a tax clarification affidavit? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And then do you see under that it says: "Regarding the Greenwood condo, 1128 Napunani Street, Number 1803, Honolulu, Hawaii." Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. That was your son Gerard's condo, wasn't it? page 60 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 62 of 64 #: 6098 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00238:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00239:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00240:01 02 03 04 A. No, that -- that was for Kathy's taxes. Q. But isn't this -- this regarding Gerard's condo, the Greenwood condo, that's his address, correct? A. No, that didn't have anything to do with that. She gave me a paper and she told me -Q. Ma'am, I'm sorry, I'm not phrasing my question correctly, I guess. A. She told me -Q. Ma'am, I'm sorry -MR. McDONALD: So listen -- listen -listen to her question. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. I'll rephrase my question. MR. McDONALD: And then just answer the question -THE WITNESS: Okay. MR. McDONALD: -- that she asks you, okay? BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Isn't this about the Greenwood condo? Isn't that what that says on this document? Isn't that what it says under regarding subject property, the Greenwood condo? A. What about the condo? Q. Okay. That's your son Gerard's condo, isn't it? Isn't that where he lives today? A. Yes, but -Q. Okay, that's all I needed to know. That's all I needed to know for now. And turning to page 2 of this document, is that your signature about a third of the way down the page? Isn't that your signature? A. Yes, it is. Q. And it's dated July 30th, 2010, correct? A. Yes. Q. And do you see under that there's what appears to be an acknowledgment by a notary public; isn't that correct? Do you see where it says "notary public" and then "acknowledgment"? A. Yes. Q. So you signed this document on July 30th, 2010, before a notary, correct? A. I went -- I went to get this notarized because I know this Tura Tavares. Q. Okay. A. I know her. Q. Okay. A. So I was supposed to take the paper that Kathy gave me -Q. Okay. A. -- and I -Q. Turning back to the first page, this affidavit in paragraph 1 says it's regarding a reverse mortgage transaction with Central Pacific Home Loans. Isn't that correct? MR. McDONALD: We object to this on hearsay grounds. This is an out-of-court statement. THE WITNESS: This is not -BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Do you see on paragraph 1 where it says a reverse mortgage transaction with Central Pacific Home Loans? A. I can't answer that -Q. I'm just asking -A. -- question. page 61 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 63 of 64 #: 6099 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00241:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00242:01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. -- if you see this on the document. MR. McDONALD: Counsel, could you repeat the question, please. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Well, perhaps it would be easier this way. If you want, I can read this to you and then you can just acknowledge that that's what it says. "This reverse home loan transaction was completed as of June 2000 -- I'm sorry, reverse mortgage transaction with Central Pacific Home Loans was initiated to purchase the above-subject property located at 1128 Napunani Street, Number 1803, Honolulu, Hawaii 9618 [sic]." That's what the first sentence says, correct? And then it says: "This reverse mortgage home loan transaction has been completed as of June 2010 and my agent was Shari Motooka-Higa." That's correct, right? A. (Shaking head.) Q. That's not correct? A. Not to me it is. Q. You did not have a reverse mortgage with Shari Motooka-Higa at Central Pacific Home Loans? A. But that's not the tax papers that I was given. Q. Well, Ms. Puana, you just indicated that you signed this document before a notary on July 30th, 2010, didn't you? A. This is the paper that I had -- I had to go and have it notarized and my friend did this. And I was told after I got this -Q. I'm sorry, Ms. Puana. A. -- to send it back to her. Q. I'm sorry, Ms. Puana, that's not the question. A. Okay, okay. MS. KAGIWADA: And I'm sorry, before I forget, I'd like to move Exhibit 1022 into evidence. THE WITNESS: Okay, okay. (Move to admit Defense Exhibit 1022.) MR. McDONALD: We object on hearsay grounds. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. And Ms. Puana, directing your attention to paragraph 4, didn't you agree that "my granddaughter Katherine P. Kealoha initiated this transaction with $83,600 of her own funds, which were a result of a residential home sale in 2005"? Didn't you agree to that? A. I never got to see that money. Q. But didn't you agree to this when you signed this document on -A. Yes, yes, I signed it. Q. -- on July 30th, 2010? A. I signed it all right. Q. And didn't you also agree that "this amount has been reimbursed to her and she has no funds that are owed to her as part of this completed transaction," correct? Isn't that what you agreed to when you signed this document? A. No. Q. No, you didn't agree -- you didn't sign this document? A. Well, I signed it. MR. McDONALD: Objection. Misstates her testimony. page 62 Case 1:17-cr-00582-JMS-WRP Document 696-1 Filed 06/04/19 Page 64 of 64 #: 6100 PageID Case Clip(s) Detailed Report Sunday, June 02, 2019, 1:18:53 AM TD_US v Kealoha (17CR0582 JMS-RLP) 21 22 23 24 25 00243:01 02 03 THE WITNESS: I signed it and I had it notarized. BY MS. KAGIWADA: Q. Correct. A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. But that wasn't the story that was asked of me to do. 31. PAGE 244:18 TO 244:22 (RUNNING 00:00:17.622) 18 19 20 21 22 MS. KAGIWADA: That will conclude our cross-examination. MR. McDONALD: Mrs. Puana, we have no further questions of you. THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. 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