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EXECUTIVE SESSION
PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE,

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
WASHINGTON, D.C.

DEPOSITION

OF:

MICHAEL COHEN

Thursday, February 28, 2019
Washington, D.C.

The deposition in the above matter was held in Room HVC-304, Capitol
Visitor Center, commencing at 9:35 a.m.

Present: Representatives Schiff, Himes, Sewell, Carson, Speier, Quigley,
Swalwell, Castro, Heck, Welch, Maloney, Demings, Krishnamoorthi, Nunes,

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Conaway, Turner, Wenstrup, Stewart, Crawford, Stefanik, Hurd, and Ratcliffe

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 UNCLASSIFIED

Aggearances:

For the PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE:

UNCLASSIFIED

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For MICHAEL COHEN:

MICHAEL D. MONICO
CARLY CHOCRON
ELIZABETH GRANOFF
MONICO & SPEVACK
20 South Clark Street, Suite 700

Chicago, lL 60603

LANNY DAVIS
DAVIS GOLDBERG & GALBER

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MR. GOLDMAN: Good morning, everyone. This is an unclassified

transcribed interview of Michael Cohen.
Mr. Cohen, thank you very much for speaking with us today.
My name is Daniel Goldman. I'm a senior advisor and director of
investigations for the majority

staff. Next to me is Nicolas Mitchell.

He's

investigative counsel for the majority staff.
Before we begin, I want to state a few things for the record.

The questioning today will be conducted by members and staff during their
allotted time period.
Some questions may seem basic, but that is because we need to clearly

establish the facts and circumstances surrounding the events at issue. Please do
not assume, Mr. Cohen, that we know any facts that you have previously disclosed

as part of any other investigation or review.
This interview will be conducted at the unclassified level and taken in
executive session.
We ask that you give complete replies to questions based on your best

recollection. lf a question is unclear or you are uncertain in your response, please
let us know. And if you do not know the answer to a question or cannot
remember, simply say so.
During the course of this interview, we will take periodic breaks, so please

don't hesitate to let us know when you may need a break.
There is a reporter making a record of these proceedings so we can easily
consult a written compilation of your answers. Because the reporter cannot
record gestures, we ask that you answer all questions verbally, and please don't
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nod your head "yes" or "no" but state "yes" or

"no."

lf you forget to do this, you

may be reminded to do so.

You are entitled to have counsel present for you during this interview, and
see that you have several counsel. At this time, I would ask that the counsel
make their appearances for the record.
MR. MONICO: Michael Monico, Monico & Spevack, Chicago, lllinois.
MR. DAVIS: Lanny Davis, Davis Goldberg & Galber.
MS. CHOCRON: Carly Chocron, Monico & Spevack.
MS. GRANOFF: Elizabeth Granoff, Monico & Spevack.
MR. GOLDMAN: Thank you.
Now, consistent with the committee's rules of procedure, you and your

counsel, if you wish and upon your request, will have a reasonable opportunity to
inspect the transcript of this interview in order to determine whether your answers

were correctly transcribed. The transcript will remain in the committee's custody.
The process for the interview is as follows: The majority will be given

t

hour to ask questions, and then the minority will be given

questions. Thereafter, we will take a break

t

if you desire, Mr.

hour to ask

Cohen. And after

that time, the majority will be given 45 minutes to ask questions, and then the
minority will be given 45 minutes. After that second round, we will alternate
between the majority and the minority in 3O-minute rounds until questioning is
complete.
Finally, you are reminded that it is unlawfulto deliberately provide false
information to Members of Congress or staff.
As this interview is under oath, Mr. Cohen, would you please stand and
raise your right hand?
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Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give today is the

whole truth and nothing but the truth?
MR. COHEN: I do.
MR. GOLDMAN: Thank you.

The record will reflect that the witness has been duly sworn.
Mr. Chairman.

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
Mr. Cohen, the committee would first like to begin by thanking you for

volunteering to appear before us today and to answer our questions on a number
of topics of interest to our investigation and to the American people.

We know that this is your third day of testimony in Congress. You must be

exhausted. And we appreciale your efforts to set the record straight about your
previous testimony before this committee as well as other important matters.

We also recognize that a decision to voluntarily appear today was made all
the more difficult by improper conduct by the President and his advisors that
c.aused you to worry about your safety and that of your

family. We appreciate

your willingness to come here today in spite of those inappropriate efforts to
intimidate you.
While we recognize you are here voluntarily, we expect that you will answer
our questions to the best of your recollection and fully and completely. Questions

will be asked by both members and

staff. You may consult

your attorney prior to

answering these questions, but the answers must be truthful and complete.

The scope of the interview is to address matters of interest to the
investigation the committee announced on February 6,2019, and to allow you to
correct your previous false statements before this committee, some of which you
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pled guilty in a case brought by the Special Counsel's Office. We will not permit

any harassing or badgering questions, and we expect that all members of the
committee will be respectful.
Before we begin, do you have any questions for us?
MR. COHEN: No,

sir.

But I would like to thank you, as well, for putting

out the statement. lt meant a lot to my family.

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
At this point, I will recognize the ranking member for any opening remarks
he would like to make.

MR. NUNES: We have no opening remarks at this

time.

Thank you.

THE CHAIRMAN: I will now turn it back over to my staff to begin the
questioning.
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

O

Good morning, Mr. Cohen. The process for the majority today is that

the staff will be asking questions on a range of topics. And then sort of at the end
of each topic or category, the members will be offered an opportunity to ask

followup questions or additional questions.
Would you please first state your full name for the record?

A
O
A
O
A
O

Michael Dean Cohen.
How old are you, sir?
Fifty-two.
Are you under the influence of any medication or other substances?
No.

Do you have any medical condition that would prevent you from

testifying truthfully today?
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A
O
A
O

No.

And other than being tired, do you feel okay to testify today?
Tired, but I feelokay.
All right.

Let's start by briefly reviewing your prior interactions with this committee.
Do you recall that in May of 2017 you received a letter requesting that you

voluntarily appear before this committee?

A
O
A
O
A
O

Yes.

Did that letter also request the production of documents?
Yes.
Do you recall that you also received a subpoena from this committee?
I

do

not.

Do you have a copy?

We can try to get a copy for

you.

But did you ultimately produce

documents to this committee?

A

The documents were produced by The Trump Organization, as they're

in custody and control of all of the documents.

O

Okay. And do you recall whether you, yourself, through your

attorney, produced any documents?

A
O

Yes.

So, in addition to the Trump Organization documents, you, through

your attorney, produced some documents as well?

A
O
A
O

Yes.

Okay. And did you also supply

a written statement to this committee?

Yes.
Did there come a time when you testified before this committee?

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A
O
A
O

Yes.

And do you recall the date of that testimony?

ldo

not.

lf I told you that it was October 24,2017, would that sound correct to

you?

A
O

Sounds correct.
Okay.

Prior to your testimony on October 24,2017, did you have any

communications or meetings with any member of this committee?

A
O

I'm

sorry. Say that again, please.

So, prior to your original testimony in October 2017 , did you have any

communications or meetings or conversations with any members of this
committee?

A
O

Not that I recall.

Did you have any communications or conversations with any staff

members of this committee?

A
O

Not that I recall.

And do you recallwhether your lawyer had any communications or

conversations with any member or staff member of this committee?

A
O

I'm not aware.
Between October 24,2017, after your testimony, and the end of 2018,

did you personally have any communications with any members or staff of this
committee?

A
O
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I'm

sorry. One more time, please.

Okay. So between your testimony on October 2017 through the end
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of 2018, so this last year, did you have any communications with any members or
staff of this committee?

A

Not that I'm aware of.

MR. DAVIS: Excuse me.
[Discussion off the record.]
MR. COHEN:

Sorry.

Okay.

BY MR. GOLDMAN:

O

Now, prior to testifying here today, did you speak with any Democratic

members of the committee?

A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O
A

Yes.

Who did you speak with?
I spoke with yourself --

Members, sir.
Oh, members of the committee. I spoke with Congressman Schiff.
How many times?
One occasion, I believe.

Okay. And what was the nature of that conversation?
Asked me to appear today before this committee and to also express

his displeasure in attacks upon my family.

O

And then prior to testifying here today, did you speak with any staff

members from this committee?

A
O
A
O
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Yes.

Okay. Approximately how many times?
Four times.

And what was the nature and purpose of those meetings?
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To discuss the scope of the questioning that was going to take place,

topics and so on.

O
A
O

And did you review your prior testimony?
Yes.

Now, since the last time that you appeared before this committee in

October 2017, were you charged with any criminal offenses?

A
O

Yes.

Were any of those felony offenses that related to your appearance or

your written statement before this committee?

A
O
A
O

Yes.

All right. What were they?
Lying to Congress.

And prior to coming here today, did you voluntarily provide to the

committee documents that you had not previously produced?

A
O
A
O

Yes.

And approximately when did you produce those documents?
Within the past month.
Now, I want to turn to your initial relationship with President Trump.

When did you first meet Donald Trump?

A

The very first time I met Mr. Trump was at his apartment when I was

on the finance committee for Dennis Vacco, who was running for reelection as
attorney general.

O
A
O
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Approximately when was that?
That was mid-'90s.

Okay. And did there come a time when you began working for

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Mr. Trump at The Trump Organization?

A
O
A
O

Yes.

When was that?
Early 2007.

And between that first meeting and early 2007, approximately how

many times would you say that you interacted with Mr. Trump?

A
O
A

Under 10.
Now, when you were hired in 2007, what role did you have?
I

was given the title of executive vice president and special counsel to

Donald J. Trump.

O
A

And what were your duties and responsibilities in that role?

To handle all matters that he felt affected him personally, the

company, technically, whatever he wanted.

O
A
O
A
O

Was there also a general counsel?
There was a general counsel, yes.
So your role was not to be the general counsel?
No.

And how was the division of responsibilities between the general

counsel and you as the special counsel divided up?

A
O

I only

worked for Mr. Trump. I didn't report to anyone else.

So did you dealwith transactionaldocuments frequently in your role as

special counsel?

A

lf he wanted me to look at them, yes, but generally -- Jason Greenblatt

was general counsel. Co-general counsel at the time was George Ross. They
divvied up the functions. Jason Greenbtatt was more transactional with the
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banks, and George was more on the retail leasing side of the business. And then
there was a handful of other attorneys who were sort of also counsel to the firm.

O

And did those handful of other attorneys work for you, or did they work

in the general counsel's office?

A
O

They worked under the general counsel.

Okay. So you've been called in media reports Mr. Trump's fixer.

Would you say that that's an accurate description of your job?

A
O

Yes.

Now, how much interaction did you have with Donald Trump when you

worked for him at The Trump Organization?

A
O
A
O
A

On a daily basis.
How many times a day?
Range between 10 times a day to 20 times a day.

And generally speaking, how would interactions with him be initiated?
I

would either get a call from one of the executive assistants that

worked up by Mr. Trump's desk, whether it be Rhona Graff or any of the other
assistants, "Mr. Trump wants to see

you." So I'd walk into his office. Or I would

get a document that said "see me" on

it.

Or he would sometimes just show up in

my office.

O
A
O
A
O
A
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His office was on the 26th floor?
Correct.
And where was your office?
On the 26th floor.

Okay. Were you within shouting distance of him?
No.

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All right.

ls it fair to say that over the 10 years that you worked for Donald Trump you
built a close relationship with him?

A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O

Yes.
Did you also socialize with him?
No.

When you traveled on business, would you have meals with him?
Yes.

And how frequently would you travel on business with him?
lt wasn't often.

Did you become familiar with his mannerisms?
Yes.

And his habits?
Yes.

Did you become familiar with the way in which he communicated with

people?

A
O

Yes.

And how would you describe the manner in which he communicated

with people?

A
O

I don't fully understand your question.

Was there a particular way you could describe how Mr. Trump

engaged in conversations with people? ls it how you engaged in conversations
with people, or is it different?

A

Different. So Mr. Trump's conversations are generally very short,

unless you're talking about golf, and then he could talk about that all day long.
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But when he's talking about things that

- even stuff that concerned

him, they were

never long conversations, they weren't detailed. They were basically he would tell
you what he wanted or he would tell you what he wanted you to

say.

i

So he doesn't really ask questions about things. He kind of gives you the
answer in advance. As an example, he'll say, this is the greatest hamburger
you've ever eaten, isn't
him over

it.

it?

Okay,

lt's just not worth

it.

yes.

All

right. You're not going to argue with

.

And if you say no, it becomes an argument, so

what's the point?

O
A
O

You testified yesterday that he speaks in

-

Code.

.. I think you called it code. And could you describe what you meant

by him speaking in code?

A

So sometimes I'd be brought in in order to negotiate on, say, a fee that

somebody was going to be receiving. And he wouldn't say to me, oh, you know,
make sure you get a really lowball number on

it.

What he would say is, Michael,

go take him into the other room and, you know, just make a good
exactly what he was talking

about.

deal. I know

lt wasn't about making a good deal; it was

really lowballing it, and he wanted to almost technically get it for free.

O
A

How did you know what he meant?
Just years of doing

it. And I'll give : how. So the first time I ever did

it, I probably didn't get the right number, And so when I went back into his office,
he turned around, he looked and he said, it's not the --

[o, no good, go back

and

get better.
So ultimately you just learn, you know, what numbers in certain areas that
he's willing to accept.
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Now, in your role as Donald Trump's fixer over the course of a decade,

did he ever ask you to do anything that you believed to be improper or suspicious
or suspect?

A
O
A
O

Yes.

Can you give an example?

Well, I guess we can talk about Stormy Daniels or Ms. Clifford.
Other than stuff that you've testified about in terms of your criminal

conduct, what we're trying to get at here is the nature of the job you had as his

fixer. What was he asking

A

you to do?

Anything that was of concern to him or any issue he just wanted me to

handle.

O
A

But when you say "handle," what do you mean?

So, as an example, there was an insurance claim in the bathroom of

his apartment at Trump Tower. There was a fresco on the ceiling, and Melania's
humidifier overflowed and it caused damage into the bathroom. So he said to me,

take care of the insurance claim on this matter.

O

Okay.

You testified yesterday that there were times that he -- other than the
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campaign finance fraud that you

A
O
A

I'm

-

there were times he asked you to do things

-

sorry. Can I -

Yeah.
Do you want a better example? We could -- oh, the ones with the

CNBC pollthat people are talking about now, where I helped to rig the poll.

O
A
O
A

Did he know about that?
Yes.

And what did he know about that?

So I actually found a document, "CNBC Contenders." lt says

"Michael C." with an arrow pointed down. Came to his office. Generally the way
that that would work was Rhona or one of the young ladies in the front would send
an email out to everyone in the company saying, "Mr. Trump is on the contenders

list.

Please log on to your various devices and vote for him," or one of the golf

courses or what have

you. And

in this specific case, it was for him as one of the

top businesspeople, you know, in the world, recognized.
Wasn't doing very well in the poll and brought it to my attention. When it
said "Michael C.," pointing down, what that means is come see him about

it. And

so I did. And I told him that, you know, there are ways that you could play with
these online polls by using bots and algorithms and so on, that there's a company
that I know that can actually do

it.

good do you think that they can do

And he said, well -- he goes, you know, how

this? And

I said,

you know, they could do

anything. lt all depends on how many lP addresses that you're able to, you know,
to use.
So he said, I want to be number
be suspicious, don't you
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one. And I said, well,

that would kind of

think? Like, out of 250, I think we're, like, 238 or 240,

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something like that. And I said, it'd be kind of suspicious. How about if we just
go for number

9?

He says, all right, number 9 is good because it was top 10.

So I reached out to this company called Redfinch, and they started. And
we moved up, like, 50, 60 points in the day, and I showed him, and he was

pleased. And I said that we needed, like, another $6,000 to buy another 100,000
lP addresses, and he said, okay. And I went ahead and bought those. And then
we're up into the mid-30s or 40s and needed another, like, $8,000 to buy another
250,000 bots, lP addresses. And I went to him, and he said, okay, great. And
then we finally got to number of 9, and then the pol! closed.
But CNBC had a little clause at the bottom that said that we have the right

to remove anybody that we want from the poll simply because we want
he was very upset about

it.

to.

And

And so was T. Boone Pickens, who was number 8.

And I have an emailto this effect, too, where T. Boone Pickens'assistant contacts
Rhona, saying, should our PR people get together and do something about
Mr. Pickens being removed as number 8 and Mr. Trump number 9?
Mr. Trump calls me

in.

He's really upset, even though, of course, we really

didn't win, but he was very upset about

it.

And he had me reach out to

-

I think

his name is Mark Halioran, who is the president of CNBC. And I said to him, it's

not right, you know, we're going to bring a lawsuit. You basically did this in order
to get people's lP addresses so that you have more addresses for marketing.
And that's just as an example of something that I would say it's not illegal,
it's just improper.

O

Right. And are there other examples of that sort of thing that you

over the years?

A
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sure.

I'm

sure.

I don't

-- I can't come to mind, but -

did

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O

Well, did he ever ask you to renege on contracts that The Trump

Organization had?

A

Some of the things that I did was reach out to individuals, whether it's

law firms or small businesses, and renegotiate contracts after the job was already

done, or basically tell them that we just weren't paying at all, or make them offers
of, say, 20 cents on the dollar.

O

Did you do things at his direction that, as you sit here today, you know

were wrong?

A
put in a bill

Well, of course, it's wrong. I mean, somebody does a job and they

- many of these folks, you know, lost everything.

One gentleman yesterday saw me on television, and he wrote to me in a

text message. I could send it to

you. And I think he was from Ohio. And he

said, you know, I remember for Trump University that I had done -- I think it was
printing

work. I can send it to you.

But he had done some work printing for

Trump University, and we ended up paying them only 20 cents on the dollar
because Trump University had its own issues, and he ended up losing the
company.

O
A
O
A
O
A

And in that example, were you involved in doing that?
I handled all of that.

Did Donald Trump tell you, go pay 20 cents on the dollar?
Yes.

He said to you, pay specifically 20 cents on the dollar?

Yeah, because there was X amount of dollars that was in the bank,

and what we did is divided it by the amount of money that was outstanding and
owed, and it came out to approximately 20 cents on the dollar.
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O

Let me rephrase my question. Did he direct you specifically how to

pay this individual less than what he was owed, or did he tell you, "Take care of

this, Michael"?

A
O
A

Everybody was 20 cents on the dollar.
That was the general rule?

Sure.

Because he wasn't going to put additionalfunds into the

company.

O

Okay.

We'll take a moment now, Mr. Chairman, to see if any members have any

followup questions on what we've just covered.
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Cohen, ljust had one question. We'llget into the
Moscow Trump Tower in your testimony down the line, but are there other
illustrations you can give us of situitions where Mr. Trump would make false

statements in your presence and in the presence of others and then ask you to
confirm what he had just said?
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: And how frequently would that happen?
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MR. COHEN: Often.

THE CHAIRMAN: And was it understood that when he said something you
both knew was false and he would turn to you that you would repeat the
falsehood?
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: Was that more or less a modis operandithat the two of
you had?
MR. COHEN: For everyone. lf he said something

-

t hate to use the

example, it's like Ramses from the Ten Commandments: So it has been said, so
it shall be

done. That is how The Trump Organization works.

THE CHAIRMAN: So it was understood by you and by others working for
him that if he said something either publicly or in the presence of others that you

all knew to be untrue, you were to repeat the untruth?
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: Nothing further.
My colleagues?
Mr. Swalwell.
MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Cohen, thank you.
Mr. Schiff alluded to there's further questioning on other matters, but just

generally, have you ever seen Mr. Trump direct his son Donald Trump, Jr., to also
make false statements?
MR. COHEN: And this goes to the whole point on how Mr. Trump speaks.
It's not as though he directs

you.

I

would say to you in normal conversation,

Congresswoman Swalwell, I want you to say that Poland Spring is the greatest
water on the planet. That's not how he would say it to
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you.

He would just say,

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Congressman, Poland Spring is the greatest water on the planet, right? What are
you going to say,

no? Okay.

Spring, what do you

So then when you are talking to him about Poland

say? That's his message.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you see that occur between Mr. Trump and his son
Donald Jr. where -MR. COHEN: I've seen him do it with everybody.
MR. SWALWELL: And that would include lvanka?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. SWALWELL: Would that include Jared Kushner?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. SWALWELL: How about Mr. Manafort?
MR. COHEN: Absolutely.

,

MR. SWALWELL: How about Rhona Graff?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. SWALWELL: How about Keith Schiller?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. SWALWELL: That's all.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Krishnamoorthi.
MR. GOLDMAN: ls there a microphone?
MR. KRISHNAMOORTHI: Mr. Cohen, have you ever seen someone do it
the wrong way and then he had to correct

them?

ln other words, you know, if he

said, this is how it is, and then someone said it, like, the opposite or said it wrong,
he said, I said this is how it
MR. COHEN:

is.

ln other words --

Yes. And then

generally what happens is you start to see

the back and forth and back and forth going on trying to clean up the mess.
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For example, with Rudy Giuliani, when he makes certain statements off the

cuff and it's not in comport with Mr. Trump's message. So then now they come
back, and what did Mr. Trump turn around and say in public? Oh, well, Rudy's

new.

He doesn't

know. You know, we've got to giv'e him a little bit of a break.

MR. KRISHNAMOORTHI: Can you give one specific example?
MR. COHEN: That one is an example, when they were talking about a

statement that he made regarding me and regarding

that?

-

I believe it was the .. what's

Yeah, the reimbursement for the Stormy Daniels payment. And what

happened was he was not on message, and then Mr. Trump came out and stated,
you've got to give Rudy a

break. He's new.

He doesn't have all the facts.

Under normal circumstances, if Rudy was there for a while, he probably

would have been fired.
THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Speier.
tVlS.

SPEIER: Mr. Cohen, you talked about that one businessman who just

wrote you and said, I went out of business because the contract was renegotiated.
It sounds like you renegotiated a lot of

contracts. How many small businesses

went out of business because you renegotiated contracts down?
MR. COHEN: I don't have that specific number, but there were a lot of

-

MS. SPEIER: Were there 10?
MR. COHEN: I'd say

more. I'd probably say more than that. I dealt with

a lot of open invoices, as it related to Trump University.
Sad story is one of the peoplewho I'd done itto, ldidn'teven know, was a

friend of

mine.

His family owned the company. And I didn't even know that that

was his family's business.
MS. SPEIER: And they lost their business?
UNCLASS

I FIED

 25

UNCLASSI FIED

MR. COHEN:

No. No.

know, why 20 cents on the
order to

pay.

No, they're a large company, but he was like, you

dollar? I said, well, that's all that was in the account

in

He goes, you know, we lost a tremendous -- I said, why are you

even asking? He goes, you know, that's my company. I was like, I didn't know.
l'm

sorry. I bought him lunch.
MS. SPEIER: Thank you.

THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Sewell.
MS. SEWELL: So was negotiating the Trump University settlement the
largest part of your

job?

Or did you have to negotiate other contracts for 20 cents

on the dollar or whatever, a lower amount?
MR. COHEN: Oh, no,

time.

I

no.

didn't have one specific

That was just one of the things going on at the

-

MS. SEWELL: Client.
MR. COHEN: .- function. I could have 10 things going virtually at the
same

time. The more that he would callyou

into the office, the more things he

would task me with.
MS. SEWELL: So that included across the board, not just Trump
University but the golf clubs?
MR. COHEN: Everything. Everything.
MS. SEWELL: Every business that he was involved in, you potentially

would have to -MR. COHEN: lncluding dealing with the media, you

know. lf there was a

spin and it wasn't going that way, he would have me reach out to media in order to

spin it and to try to spin

it. Anything that he had concern or an issue with.

MS. SEWELL: Thank you.
UNCLASSIEIED

 UNCLASS

26

I FIED

MR. COHEN: lt was exhausting.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Castro. Let's make this the last question before we
move on to the next topic.
MR. CASTRO: You mentioned that on some of these contracts that he

would pay 20 cents on the dollar ultimately. Did he know ahead of time, before
he engaged these businesses, that he didn't have the money or wasn't willing to
pay?
MR. COHEN: No, it wasn't

before. lt was as a result of the company's

problem. lt was a licensing -- you know, Trump University, we allthought,
actually, it was a licensing deal with a guy named Michael Sexton. lt turns out
that Mr. Trump actually had the largest percentage of ownership in the company.
Actually, I didn't know that because I didn't do the contract for the creation of the

company. But ultimately the company fell apart.
And, I mean, for all you know, this hotel, you know, that we're staying in
here in D.C., you know, they maybe put on a function, and for the room rental they

just didn't get paid, and all these invoices started piling

up.

That's how I ended up

getting involved.
BY MR. MITCHELL:

O
A
O

Good morning, sir.
Sir.

I'm going to shift gears a little bit, and we're going to turn to Trump

Tower Moscow.

A
O
particular

Sure.

And we're going to spending quite a bit of time this morning on this

topic.

UNCLASSIEIED

No surprise to you, I'm

sure.

I'm going to start at a 30,000-foot

 UNCLASS

27

I FIED

levelto frame Trump Tower Moscow and to put it into perspective.
Did Mr. Trump ever express to you his interest in doing business in Russia
at any time?

A
O

Yes.

And how often would he talk to you about his interest in doing

business in Russia?

A

Not

often.

He was interested in doing business in any country, and

especially, you have to remember, the licensing deals.

O

Approximately how many times would you say that Mr. Trump talked

to you about his interest in doing business in Russia?

A
O
A
O
A
O

Maybe a handful.

Okay. And what would he say?
Well, if the topic would come up, itd be great to have a project there.
Anything else?
No.

When was the first time you had communications with anyone outside

of The Trump Organization about developing a Trump Tower in Moscow?

A
O
A
O
A
O
Okay.

Somewhere around 2015.
And who would that first conversation have been with?
Felix Sater.
Within The Trump Organization?
I'm sorry?
Who would that first conversation have been with within -- excuse me.

Felix

A

Sater.

So who is Felix Sater?

Felix Sater is a gentleman who was a partner in a company called

UNCLASSIFIED

 UNCLASS

28

I FIED

Bayrock, and they had successfully done the deal that was known as Trump

SoHo. And I believe Felix was also, through Bayrock, involved

in the Trump Fort

Lauderdale project.

O
A
O
A
O

And did you know Mr. Sater personally before 2015?

tdid.
And what was the nature of your relationship?
I knew Felix Sater when I was around 17 years old, socially.

And did there come a time when you entered into a business

relationship with Mr. Sater?

A
O
A
O
A

With Mr. Sater? No, I was never in business with Mr. Sater.

Okay. Did you ever conduct business with Mr. Sater?
Yes.

Okay. Prior So just

-

I want

to be clear, though, because there's a lot of

misconception about my relationship to Felix Sater. We did not grow up together.
I

don't even know where Felix grew

up.

I know he was

married. He's got, I think,

three daughters. I couldn't tell you any of their names. I've never actually had
dinner with him and his wife.
From the time I saw him at 17, because there was just a group that I knew

that knew him, I didn't see him again for 20 years until Trump, when he was
involved in the Trump SoHo project. So this whole story about Felix and I being
lifelong friends is just not true.

O
A

What was Mr. Sater's involvement in the Trump SoHo project?

So he was with a company called Bayrock, and they put two groups

together. You had The Trump Organization, which was the licensor, and you had
UNCLASSIFIED

 UNCLASS

29

I FIED

Zar Realty, Z-a-t, which was the licensee. And it was for the construction and
development of Trump SoHo, which was a hotel/condo.

O

Do you know whether Mr. Sater was ever an employee of The Trump

Organization?

A
O

I

don't believe he ever was.

Okay.

So, turning back to the Trump Tower Moscow deal, was Mr. Sater working

on behalf of The Trump Organization in connection with that deal?

A
O
A

No.

So who did he represent?
He represented a company called lC Expert,

lnc.,

and the principal's

name was Andrei Rozov.

O

Do you know whether Mr. Sater had a formal agreement with lC

Expert, lnc.?

A
O

I'm not aware.
Can you please describe the initial conversations that you had with

Mr. Sater about Trump Tower Moscow?

A

He called me and told me that he represents a company in Russia that

has the ability to

build. What they want is a five-star luxury

condo/hotel/commercial property in Russia. And he wants to bring it to Trump as
the licensor.

O

And this was all in the initial conversations that Mr. Sater had with you

back in 2015?

A
O
UNCLASS

I FI

Yes.

Did there come a time after those initial conversations that you had
ED

 UNCLASS

30

I FIED

discussed this possible deal with anyone at The Trump Organization?

A
O

Yes.
When was the first time, to the best of your recollection, that you

spoke with someone from The Trump Organization about the Trump Tower
Moscow deal that was being proposed by Mr. Sater?

A

lmmediately after I spoke to Mr. Sater. I went straight into

Mr. Trump's office, and I told him about the opportunity.

O
A
O
A
O
A
O
A

And do you have a specific recollection of that meeting?
Yes.

And when did that meeting occur?
I

don't recall the exact date, but it was sometime in October of 2015.

Who else was in Mr. Trump's office for that conversation?
I

don't recall,

What did you tell Mr. Trump?
That there's an opportunity to build the tallest building in all of Europe

And he goes, oh, you know .. and I told him it would be in Moscow. He says,

okay.

He goes, who's the partner? And I said, well, it's a client of Felix's. He

was like, ah, you know, it's

Felix. l'm like, yes, but Felix isn't the partner, Felix is

just the representative of the partner. And he said to me, all right, you know, just
be careful.

O

Do you have any opinion as to why Mr. Trump reacted in the manner

that you just described regarding Mr. Sater?

A

There was some bad

blood. There was a very bad television piece

that took place earlier, and it dealt a lot with Felix's relationship to Mr. Trump.

Alan Garten was on television, said some relatively unflattering things. Felix
UNCLASS

] FIED

 UNCLASS

31

I FIED

probably leaked some negative stuff, and there was some back-and-forth bad
blood between the

two.

And when Mr. Trump asked Felix to leave the office, it

just didn't go well.

O
A

When you say asked to leave the office, what do you mean by that?

So Felix occupied an office on the 26th

floor.

He also had an

assistant in the bullpen outside of his office, I think. First it was two; then it
became

one. Then, ultimately,

after a couple months, Mr. Trump told him that he

has to leave.

O
A

That office was not part of The Trump Organization, though, correct?
lt was -- well, it belonged to

- it was on the 26th floor, Mr. Trump's.

But Felix was not part of The Trump Organization, no.

O

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Trump also said to you that you should be careful. What do you mean
by that?

A
O
A
O
A
O
A

He wanted me to keep him on a short leash.

And, again, this was in October of 2015?
I believe.

Do you recallwhen Mr. Trump had kicked Mr. Sater out of that office?

ldon't.
lt was sometime before October 2015?

Yes.

Yes.

And the reason he came to me as opposed to also running to, say, Don Jr.
or lvanka or Eric or Mr. Trump himself, which is what he would have done if he
was still at the office, is, again, there was some bad feelings between the kids also
and Felix because they were part of Felix having to leave the office.
UNCLASS

I F]

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 32

UNCLASSIEIED

O
A
O
A
O
A
O

But that bad blood did not exist between you and Mr. Sater?
No.

And that's why he came to you with his proposal?

Correct. Correct.
Did Mr. Trump say anything else during that initial meeting?
Other than keep him on a short

leash? Keep me posted.

Okay. And did you take that to mean that you should potentially

pursue this opportunity?

A
O

Absolutely.
Now, were there multiple lines of effort to develop a Trump Tower

Moscow during this time period in addition to this proposal by Mr. Sater?

A
O
A
O
A
O

And we're going to get into Mr. Rtskhiladze's proposal in more detail

A

There really is no -- there really was no proposal. He wanted to be

To me or to others at the organization?
Let's start with ones in which you were involved.
One.

Okay. And who was that with?
A friend of mine named Giorgi Rtskhiladze.

later.

the licensee with his group, but we had already entered into an LOI with lC Expert.
And so while I engaged in some conversation, just keeping Giorgi Rtskhiladze's
proposal on the back burner just in case it never went anywhere, never even to a
point of a letter of interest.

O
A
UNCLASS

And we'll go into far more detailwith this in a little
I

was hoping to possibly avoid that.

I E]ED

bit.

That's why --

 UNCLASS

I FI

O

33

ED

But, to be clear, that was an entirely separate effort than the proposal

that Mr. Sater had to you in October 2015?

A
O

Entirely different.
Thank you.

Are those the only two efforts that you were involved in with regard to a
Trump Tower Moscow proposal?

A
O

Yes.

Okay. Now, you indicated that there might have been other efforts

with other individuals of The Trump Organization?

A

Correct. There were earlier efforts which occurred. Going back,

obviously, we all know this from press, Mr. Trump, as well as with Don and lvanka,
prior to my proposal with -- well, Felix's proposal to The Trump Org that they had
with the Agalarovs and then, I believe, once even before that, which l'm not aware
of.

O
A
O
A
O

And you were not personally involved in those efforts?
I

wasn't involved at all.

Okay.

Did you ever speak to Mr. Trump about those earlier efforts?

No.

After you spoke to Mr. Trump in October of 2015 regarding Mr. Sater's

proposalto build a Trump Tower Moscow, what did you do next?

A
O

Continued discussing this proposalwith Mr. Sater.
Can you just generally describe the typical initial steps that you

would've performed to pursue a deal of this type, not necessarily this particular
deal but just a deal of this type?

A
UNCLASS

I

would have run this the same way that I ran the deal that I had done

I FIED

 UNCLAS

S

34

I FIED

with Mr. Rtskhiladze previously in the country of Georgia.
I had a template for a letter of intent, so I printed

that. Then, obviously,

I

knew that the property would have a hotel component to it, so I printed out a hotel
management agreement. And I knew that there was also going to be a

commercial side to it, so I printed out a document regarding the commercial aspect

to

it.

And then I spoke with Felix on the phone and talked about the way we were
going to structure the economics of the deal.

O

And that's the typical process that you would have followed in any

other deal of this type?

A
O

Yes.

Now, were you the lead negotiator for The Trump Organization in

regards to the Trump Tower Moscow deal that you're describing with Mr. Sater?

A
O

Yes.

Who else from The Trump Organization was involved in negotiating

this deal?

A
O

Negotiating the

deal? Just myself and Mr. Trump.

And on the other side of the deal, other than Mr. Sater, who were you

engaging with?

A

I'm unaware. I mean, he introduced me once by telephone to Andrey

Rozov, who doesn't speak English, so he acted as the interpreter. I don't even
know if it was Andrey Rozov that I was speaking to.

O
A
O
UNCLASS

Do you know when that was?
lt was prior to the execution of, I believe, the LOl.

And do you recall the date that the LO! was executed?

I FIED

 35

UNCLASSIFIED

A
O
A
O

I believe it says October 28 of 2015 on the document.

So it would have been sometime -lt would have been either that day or the day before.

Okay.

Based on your discussions with Mr. Sater as well as your initial discussion

with Mr. Trump, did you immediately decide that this was going to be a licensing
deal?

A

lt would only be a licensing

deal.

He doesn't have partners in

overseas companies. Whatever is overseas, like Trump Scotland or, you know,
what do you call it, Aberdeen, he owns himself.

O

And based on your years of experience with Mr. Trump, do you know

why that is?

A
O
A

He doesn't trust people.
Why do you say that?
Because if you send money overseas and your partner is local,

especially if it's a foreign country, chances are they'll take your money and you're
going to lose in

court. They have home-court advantage.

O Did Mr. Trump say that to you?
A That's what I know, yes.
O How do you know that?
A Because we've had that discussion.
O With Mr. Trump?
A Yes. So anything overseas that he doesn't own outright, he doesn't
have partners. Actually, I think the only partner that he has even in the United

States is Phil Ruffin in the Las Vegas project. They're 50/50. Other than that,
UNCLASSIFIED

I

 36

UNCLASS]FIED

can't think of any other real estate project that he has a partner in.

0

Turning back to Trump Tower Moscow, who was responsible for the

architectural plans of that project?

A

So there was no one responsible for architectural plans because the

deal didn't get that

far.

I

think ! have an idea why you're asking this.

So I have used, just as a placeholder, a previously conceived property that

I

thought of for a property that Giorgi Rtskhiladze and I were looking at in the
country of Kazakhstan. And I used a friend, a gentleman named John Fotiatis,
architecture, to do the rendering. And what we did is we took the same property
and we just transposed it into Russia for the purposes of a placeholder on this

project. And it is a beautiful design.

O

ln your preliminary discussions, what other aspects of the deal would

The Trump Organization be responsiblefor?

A

Virtually everything

-

the design, interior. There is a whole section,

assuming we've gone to definitive documents, on specifications, the types of
marble that have to be used, the ceiling heights, bathroom fixtures -- I mean,

everything. Everything.
They would run point on the construction with local contractors. For the
hotel, obviously, Trump Hotel management would take over

that.

As far as for the

commercial space, we probably would have had operational control over that as

well.

As well as Trump Realty would probably be selling the residential

apartments there, along with a local broker.

O
A
O
UNCLASS

And what was Mr. Sater's side of the deal responsible for?
For all the money and the permits, the property, everything local.
Did you come to learn that there was anything different or special

] FIED

 37

UNCLASS]FIED

about conducting a realestate deal in Moscow, Russia?

A

Well, I didn't learn it; lalready knew

it.

I mean, everything runs

through the Kremlin. Everything runs through Putin. He doesn't want to look out
the window and see anything that he didn't approve.

O
A

And how do you know that?

ljust know people who have done business in Russia, and ljust know

that everything runs through the Kremlin.

O

Did you have similar experiences with different governments in

Georgia and Kazakhstan?

A

Kazakhstan is the

same. Everything runs through the government.

And in Georgia, yes, everything runs through the government there too.

O

And we'll get, again, into more detail about this later, but did Mr. Sater

also discuss to you the fact that everything needed to go through the Kremlin

when it came to a project in Moscow?

A Yes. He Said it many times.
O Did you ever discuss this requirement

that projects be vetted by the

Kremlin with anyone in The Trump Organization?

A
O

Not that I recall.

Was it your understanding that Mr. Trump or others at The Trump

Organization nevertheless understood that any realestate deals in Moscow
required the Kremlin's approval?

A
O
A

I believe they know that like everybody else,
So what's the basis for that belief?

Well, I know that Don and lvanka had been there looking at projects.

Mr. Trump had been looking at projects there going back to the, you know, late
UNCLASS

I FI

ED

 UNCLASS I

38

FIED

'90s, I think, or mid-'9Os.

O
A
O
A

So it's their past experiences in that country?
lt's also -- it's widely reported that
And common knowledge.
And common knowledge, yes.

Thanks for the

O

-

help. I am really tired.

At any time did you have any discussions with Mr. Sater about how to

go about getting government approval?

A No. That would have been an obligation of the licensee.
O We'llget into this in more detail later, but you did at times discuss
traveling to Moscow with Mr. Sater, correct?

A

I

was asked to go to Moscow on many occasions by many different

people, actually.

O

Now, I asked you questions earlier about discussions with Mr. Trump

in October of 2015 about Mr. Sater's proposal. Did you speak with anyone else
from The Trump Organization about this in October of 2015?

A
O
A
O
A
O

Not that I recall.

Any conversations with lvanka Trump?
ln October of 2015? Not that I recall.
With Donald Trump, Jr.?
Again, not that I recall.
All right.

Chairman Schiff?
THE CHAIRMAN: I know we're probably going to cover this later on, but
just to clarify, Mr. Cohen, you've testified that you didn't have conversations with
UNCLASS

I EI

ED

 UNCLASS

I FI

39

ED

Mr. Sater about getting Kremlin approval, but at some point did you discuss with
Mr. Sater reaching out to Dimitry Peskov for his assistance with making this

project happen?
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: And we'll get into that later on, but ljust wanted to
clarify that.

Any other questions?
Mr. Swalwell.
MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Sater have a Trump Organization business
card?
MR. COHEN: At one time, yes.
MR. SWALWELL: How would that happen if he wasn't working for The

Trump Organization?
MR. COHEN: So his card stated

-

I believe it said "Senior Advisor."

MR. SWALWELL: Was he actually a senior advisor?
MR. COHEN: His card said so.
MR. SWALWELL: When you initiated the 2015 Trump Tower Moscow
project and you discussed that with Mr. Trump, was there any discussion about his
prior efforts to go into Moscow? Did you have that frame of reference or did you
discuss that at all as you started to stand up this new project?
MR. COHEN: Didn't really have that discussion, in terms of the

priors.

knew priors existed, but there was -- I can't recall a conversation on it.

Can I clarify something, though? You asked me about whether Don Jr.
and lvanka knew about the project. They knew about the project after the
execution of the
UNCLASS

I FIED

LOl. I just don't recall the conversation

and the exact date

I

 UNCLASS

40

] FIED

because it's so close to November. I'm just trying to -- I'm just trying to be right.
So I don't know if the conversation was November, which would've been 3 days

later. I don't know which one was

there or

not.

But everybody knew about it at

the time of the execution of the LOl.
Sorry.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Maloney.
MR. MALONEY: Mr. Cohen, you testified that these conversations started
in October

2015. Of course, that's 3 months after Mr. Trump has announced for

President. Did that strike anyone as unusual?
MR. COHEN: I don't know about anybody

else.

For me, I didn't think

about it because, one, I wasn't part of the campaign, and, two, I never thought he
was going to

win.

So it was just going to be a great project for the company, and

it would've been a great project for me to be involved with.

MR. MALONEY: And so I take it you had no conversations with Donald

Trump or anyone else about

-

MR. COHEN: The political side?
MR. MALONEY: .. the fact that there was a Presidential campaign going
on and a major real estate deal being launched at the same time?
MR. COHEN:

No.

No, not about the political side to

it.

We only spoke

about the real estate aspect.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Quigley.
MR. QUIGLEY: Good morning. Thank you for being here.

As this proposalwas beginning, you talked about having Mr. Sater look at
the local issues. Did you at that point or at some point come to terms with the fact
that there were sanctions in place that might impair the deal going forward?
UNCLASS

] FIED

 UNCLASS

4t

I FIED

MR. COHEN: No.
MR. QUIGLEY: Were you aware or did you become aware later on of the

sanctions that were imposed on the Russians that might impair the deal going
forward?
MR. COHEN: I'm not even aware as I sit here today of what sanctions

would stop a deal like this.
MR. QUIGLEY: Well, sanctions on a bank, for example, that might finance
it.

MR. COHEN: So the answer is

no.

And the reason why is because,

again, Trump Organization would have absolutely no financial obligation regarding

the construction of this property. So who the local licensee uses, that's their

business. This is merely a license deal. There's tremendous economics in it for
him, but he is under no obligation financially for anything, no performance

guarantees. There's no financial obligations to Trump or The Trump Organization
at all.
MR. QUIGLEY: And I'm sorry, ljust want to

clarify. So you don't believe

that, because of that, that the sanctions, in your mind, would have impaired the
project?
MR. COHEN: I don't believe so, no.
MR. QUIGLEY:

Okay. Thank you.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Heck.
MR. HECK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Cohen, was there any part of your compensation that was
incentive-based with respect to deal completion, i.e., bonus payment, revenue
stream, equity?
UNCLASSIFIED

 UNCLASS

42

I FIED

MR. COHEN: So there's no equity that Mr. Trump gives to any of the
employees.
As far as bonus,

no. Bonus is discretionary upon him.

the same year after year after

year.

lt generally was

I mean, you have to do something

super-extraordinary, like something like this tower, for it to go anywhere north.
But no.

UNCLASS

I F]

ED

 UNCLASS

43

I FIED

[10:36 a.m.]
MR. HECK: Was there any understanding on your part that if you did bring

the deal to completion, that you would be rewarded or compensated above and
beyond what you otherwise were given to believe?
MR. COHEN: By Mr. Trump or The Trump Organization?
MR. HECK: Yes.
MR. COHEN:

No.

However, one thing, when Felix had come up with the

strategy of having the penthouse given to the President, to President Putin, I said:
I want

to buy the apartment directly underneath. I'm putting that in the

deal.

I

want to own that so I can sell it to one of the oligarchs for like a billion dollars,
which was part of the joke.
MR.

HECK: Mr. Chairman, I'm assuming we're going to get into the condo

at some point later.

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MR. HECK: Thank you.
MR. MITCHELL: Sir, is there anything you want to clarify?
MR. COHEN:

No.

No.

[Discussion off the record.]
MR. COHEN: That -- what, that Mr. Trump knew that Putin ultimately knew
about the

deal? Yes, that's part of the much

later communications.

MR. MITCHELL: And we'll get into that later.
MR. COHEN: Yes, that's what ljust said.
MR. MITCHELL: Sir, you have a binder in front of you with some exhibits.

At various times during today's testimony, we're going to ask you to turn to a
particular tab, and we're going to go over a particular document.
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS

44

I EIED

We'd ask -MR. TURNER: Can we have copies of those?
MR. MITCHELL: As documents are introduced, we will provide copies to
members of the minority. I would ask that you not -MR. TURNER: Just to clarify the record, you are not going to give us
copies of the binder so we can look at the documents that you've just put in front

of him and review them while he's reviewing them? You're only going to give
them to us as you refer to them?
MR. MITCHELL: As soon as a document is referred to and introduced
MR. TURNER: Well, then the answer is yes,

-

right? You all have

documents. He has a document. He has a binder. And you're not giving us a
copy of the documents in his binder currently?
MR. MITCHELL: You are getting copies of the document that is being
introduced at this time.
MR. TURNER: Just say yes, because what you are doing is you are
saying you have given him a binder of documents that you're not letting us see.
MR. MITCHELL: That is correct.
MR. GOLDMAN: And we're asking him not to look ahead in his binder,
because -MR. TURNER: How do you know he hasn't? You didn't ask

him.

lt's

highly unusual to hand a witness a binder of documents and have only the majority

side have those documents and us not have them.
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Turner, I'lljust make a couple points. All of the
documents you had access

to.

They've been provided to your --

MR. TURNER: We have thousands of documents. I'm supposed to
UNCLASS

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 UNCLAS

S

45

] FIED

ascertain what ones are in front of him?

THE CHAIRMAN: You don't have thousands of documents from Mr.
Cohen.
DR. WENSTRUP: May I suggest you take his binder away right now and

you give him these documents as we get them, if you want to have the
appearance of being upfront. I'm not a lawyer, but

-

THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Wenstrup, you've been here for 2 years, in which
you never extended a courtesy like that to
this

us.

But I will tell you this, I will tell you

DR. WENSTRUP: I don't remember having a binder like that that we gave

to the witness.

THE CHAIRMAN: You had ample -DR. WENSTRUP: You give me one example where we gave a binder to a

witness that you didn't get.
THE CHAIRMAN: We can give you plenty of examples, which, whether
they were in a binder or not, you gave dozens of documents to a witness to go
through.
DR. WENSTRUP: So, if it's wrong then, you say it's right now.

THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Wenstrup, I am going to make you a commitment.
l'm going tb make you a commitment. We are going to treat you far better than
you treated us in the minority. We're going to be far more respectful. And,
indeed, we already have because, Dr. Wenstrup -DR. WENSTRUP: This just doesn't seem right is all I'm saying.

THE CHAIRMAN: lf I can

finish.

Because we gave you these documents

days in advance, a courtesy you rarely extended to us.
UNCLASSIFIED

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Just so you know, Mr. Ratcliffe, you're new to the committee, so you're not
familiar with the history, but the history is we would rarely get any advance notice
of a witness coming in or of documents in advance. And there were often
occasions where documents were dumped in the system even without letting us
know there were documents

there. That's the history.

So we have already demonstrated far more courtesy to you than was
extended to

us.

And we will continue

to.

We will continue

to.

And we will

discuss the documents with this witness during votes to try to accommodate your
request, but I want to make it clear that the courtesy you're asking from us was
never extended to

us.

But we will do better.

MR. CONAWAY: Would the gentleman yield?

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MR. CONAWAY: So you said "never" and "rarely." Those don't comport.

And you have an opinion that you've stated for the record. I would like to state an
opinion also for the record that our perspective is we did not treat you as badly as
the way we were treated. So, again, opinion on

opinion. I don't think we're here

to hear you and I yapping at each other.
THE CHAIRMAN: I completely agree.
MR. CONAWAY: These gratuitous criticisms of the way I handled the

investigation, I'lljust argue that that's not my recollection of it.
THE CHAIRMAN: And I fully agree we should continue. Time has
expired.
MR. GOLDMAN: Do you want to restore some time after that discussion,

or should we move on?
THE CHAIRMAN:
UNCLASS

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Yes. Where were we before we began the debate?

 UNCLASS

47

] EIED

MR. MITCHELL: We were about to ask some questions about exhibit No.

2. But I can ask a handful of questions

before we get to that and then you can

decide whether to go forward or --

THE CHAIRMAN: Why don't we do

this:

We'll ask some questions

without reference to the exhibit, and we can make copies of exhibits for you while
we go vote because votes are fairly imminent. All right?
Mr. Mitchell, you can proceed.
MR. MITCHELL: Thank you.
BY MR. MITCHELL:

O

Mr, Cohen, you came in today and you had a binder in front of

you.

ls

that right?

A
O
A
O
A
O

Yes.

And do you still have that binder in front of you?

ldon't.
Did you go through that binder this morning?
No.

At any time, were you handed a copy of this binder prior to you coming

in today?

A

No.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ratcliffe.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Thank you.
Mr. Cohen, my name is John Ratcliffe. I've got some questions for you

today. You testified before this committee on October 24th of 2017 under
subpoena. You're testifying here today voluntarily. Whose idea was it for you to
testify?
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48

ED

MR. COHEN: Whose idea was

it?

I received a request from the chairman

to come and to appear, and I accepted.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Are there any restrictions on your testimony today?
MR. COHEN: I've been asked by the Southern District of New York certain

matters not to discuss because there are investigations pending. But short of
that, no.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Any restrictions placed on you by the special counsel?
MR. COHEN: The answer to that is no.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Neither of your former attorneys during your October

24th,2017, interview are representing you here today, correct?
MR. COHEN: Correct.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Does Mr. Ryan still represent you?
MR. COHEN: No, sir.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Does Mr. Petrillo still represent you?
MR. COHEN: No, sir.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Did you have an opportunity to review your prior
transcript?
MR. COHEN: I have not read the prior transcript, no, but I have been

given certain notes, yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Parts of your prior testimony before this committee

*

Hold on a second. Let me rephrase

that.

The

answer is yes, I did review the transcript. I was confusing the Senate

one.

l'm

MR. COHEN: I'm

sorry.

Let me take that

sorry.

back. The answer is yes; I reviewed

it.

MR. RATCLIFFE: Parts of your prior testimony before this committee and
before the Senate Select Committee on lntelligence were the basis of 18 U.S.C.
UNCLASS

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1001 felony charge to which you pled guilty on November 29th of 2018, correct?
MR. COHEN: Correct.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Do you understand that the same penalties would apply

to any false testimony that you give to this committee today?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Do you understand that those same penalties would
apply to any false testimony that you may have given to the House Oversight
Committee yesterday?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Or to the Senate Select Committee on lntelligence on
Tuesday?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And have your lawyers or anyone explained to you that,
notwithstanding your prior guilty plea, that you still have a Fifth Amendment right

against self-incrimination as to any additional or future crimes for which you have
not been charged?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And having been apprised of those Fifth Amendment
rights, it is still your desire to nevertheless provide testimony voluntarily today?
MR. COHEN: Yes, though I'll still maintain I have a Fifth Amendment right.
MR. RATCLIFFE: As I've just pointed

out.

Have you discussed your

anticipated testimony with Mr. Schiff or other members of

- any other members

of

this committee?
MR. COHEN: I'm

sorry. I don't understand the question

you're asking.

MR. RATCLIFFE: Did you have a discussion with Mr. Schiff or any other
UNCLASS

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FIED

50

members of this committee about the testimony that you are providing today?
MR. COHEN: Members? Just as I stated previously, with Mr. Schiff.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And you stated previously that you had a conversation

with Mr. Schiff, who you said asked you to appear and expressed his displeasure
in how you had been treated, correct?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Yesterday, your testimony under oath was that you had
a conversation with Mr. Schiff about topics of your testimony.
MR. COHEN: And I said that as well about appearing, which has to deal

with topics.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So what topics did you discuss with Mr. Schiff?
MR. COHEN: Moscow. Everything that we're going to be going through
today.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So how long was your conversation with Mr. Schiff?
MR. COHEN: Under 5 minutes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: ls that your answer, or is that Mr. Davis'answer?
MR. COHEN: He was on the phone with us.
MR. RATCLIFFE: What do you recall Mr. Schiff saying to you about topics
that would be covered?
MR. COHEN: I don't recall specifically. I -- all the topics that we're going

to be talking -- Moscow, my - Felix Sater, the things that we're going to be talking
about today.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Did you give him any indication of what your testimony

would be on those topics?
MR. COHEN: Not that I recall.
UNCLASSIEIED

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51

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MR. RATCLIFFE: Did he ask you about your prior testimony before this
committee?
MR. COHEN: Not that I recall.
MR. RATCLIFFE: You mentioned earlier that you had four conversations

with members of this committee staff, correct?
MR.

CoHEN:

t:r.

MR. RATCLIFFE: Were all of those conversations with members of the
majority staff?
MR. COHEN: They were with

-

MR. RATCLIFFE: The Democratic staff?
MR. COHEN: I believe so, yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All

right. Give me as much information

as you can

about when those four conversations took place.
MR. COHEN: I don't have the specific dates,

sir.

walking calendar. I apologize. I don't. Within the last

-

I mean, !'m not a

within the last 2

months.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Four separate occasions?
MR. COHEN: On four separate occasions. I believe it was four.
MR. RATCLIFFE: To the best of your recollection, how long did any of
those four occasions, conversations last?
MR. COHEN: Two hours.
MR. RATCLIFFE: A total of 2 hours?
MR. COHEN: One was

t hour. No, no.

I'm not sure exactly in total.

MR. RATCLIFFE: I'm asking to the best of your recollection. So the best
of your recollection, in summary, you're saying you had 2 hours of conversation?
UNCLASS

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UNCLASS]FIED
MR. COHEN: All

four?

You want allfour or you want individual?

MR. RATCLIFFE: All four.
MR. COHEN: Four or 5 hours in total, or something like that.
MR. RATCLIFFE: ln

-

4 or 5 hours of preparation for the testimony that

you were providing today, correct?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All

right.

ln those 4 to 5 hours, to the best of your

recollection, what did you discuss with the Democratic staff of this committee?
MR. COHEN: Do you have a specific question? What did I discuss? We

discussed the topics that were being looked at, that this committee has interest in,
and information that I may have to be able to provide some clarity.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And in 4 to 5 hours, did you discuss so far some of the
same topics that we've covered in the first hour of your testimony?
MR. COHEN: We really haven't covered

Trump Tower Moscow thing for a long

time.

much. I've been covering this

We talked about

that. We also

talked about financial records that came into my possession
MR. RATCLIFFE: And so did that

- in those 4 or 5 hours, did that include

members of the Democratic staff asking you questions about your knowledge
about these transactions like the Trump Tower Moscow project?
MR. COHEN: There was back-and-forth conversation, yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So you did give an advance summary of what your
testimony was going to be today?
MR. COHEN: I don't know if I would call it an advance summary,
had conversation.
MR. RATCLIFFE: You gave 4 to 5 hours of detail regarding your
UNCLASS

I F]

ED

sir.

We

 UNCLASS I

53

FIED

knowledge in back-and-forth conversations with members of the Democratic staff
of the House -MR. COHEN: Again, sir, we had conversation. I don't know if I woutd say
it was

detailed. We also went over the transcript, which was quite long.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So, now, a little bit more about the specifics of how

those 4 to 5 -- four meetings over 4 to 5 hours took

place. Did any of them take

place in person?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: How many?
MR. COHEN: All of them took place in person.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Where did they take place?
MR. COHEN: ln New York.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Members of the Democratic staff traveled to New York

to meet with you to discuss your testimony before this committee today for 4 to 5

hours? ls that your testimony under oath?
MR. COHEN: I'm sorry?
MR. RATCLIFFE: Members of the Democratic staff traveled to New York

and met with you for 4 to 5 hours to discuss your testimony prior to today? ls that
your testimony under oath?
MR. COHEN: What I said was I met with them in New

where they traveled

from.

York. I don't know

I met with them in New York.

MR. RATCLIFFE: I believe they've called

votes. Can you mark the time

so I can resume immediately after votes?
Before we adjourn, Mr. Stewart has one question.

THE CHAIRMAN: We're not adjourning. We can continue untilwe get a
UNCLASS

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 UNCLASS

54

I EIED

little closer. We have a long day ahead of us, so we should make use of as much

time as we can.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Mr. Stewart, you have one question?
MR. STEWART: One question to follow up on this, Mr. Cohen. ln regards
to this before we break, in these 4 to 5 hours of conversations in person with
members of Democratic staff or, in some cases, the chairman, would you say you

were better prepared for this testimony than you were before you had those
conversations?
MR. COHEN: I was in preparation for three hearings. I had one Tuesday,
one yesterday, and one today, and you're all covering the exact same topic.
MR. STEWART: I understand. I'm just asking -MR. COHEN: I also just would like to make clear that I asked them to
come to New York because I had just come out of surgery

-

MR. DAVIS: I don't think the witness finished.
MR. COHEN: I had just come out of surgery, and I had asked them to
come to me because I could not travel.
MR. STEWART: And it's of little interest to me, I think, whether you met
here or in New
I think

York.

The fact that you met is the most important thing to me and

to members.
Would you say that you are better prepared for your testimony having met

with these individuals than you would have been otherwise?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. STEWART: ls it fair to say that they helped you prepare your
testimony?
MR. COHEN:
UNCLASS

I FIED

No.

I read through the transcript, so I'm better prepared.

 UNCLASS

55

I FIED

MR. STEWART: But those meetings helped prepare you for these
hearings?
MR. COHEN: Sir, I had the transcript. I was preparing

myself. l'm not

adopting their answers; I have my own.
MR. STEWART: You did say yes, so l'll leave it at that.

MR. DAVIS:

He

just modified .. you have to stop interrupting and give

the witness courtesy. Finish your answer.
MR. COHEN:

Okay. I was using my prior testimony in order --

THE CHAIRMAN: Members, please, let's allow the witness to finish his
answer.
MR. COHEN: I was using the prior testimony in order to prepare myself,
along with the information that I had for the other two hearings in preparation for
this.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Mr. Cohen, did the meetings that you had that you've
represented, were those meetings with Democratic staff members of this
committee?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Did it include members of the staff or members of other
cong ressional committees?

MR. COHEN: My belief, it was the staff.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Of committees besides the lntelligence Committee?
MR. COHEN: Of this committee.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Only of this committee?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: I'm going to ..
UNCLASS

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 56

UNCLASSIFIED

MR. COHEN: Did you ask me if I had also spoken with other House

committee members or staff? The answer is yes, I've spoken with other
committees as well.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All

right. Tell me about those meetings.

MR. COHEN: I spoke with staff for the House Oversight as well.
MR. RATCLIFFE: The Democratic staff?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: How about for the Senate Select Committee on
lntelligence?
MR. COHEN: I don't believe so.
MR. RATCLIFFE: The conversations you had with the House Oversight
majority staff, how many meetings did you have with

them?

lf you dont know,

you can -MR. COHEN: I apologize. ldon't

know. I don't

recall.

MR. RATCLIFFE: Were those meetings separate and apart from the four
meetings that you've identified today that took place with the majority staff of the
House Select Committee on lntelligence?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: How long, in aggregate, did the meetings with the
House Oversight staff committee last?
MR. COHEN: I don't recall. A couple of hours.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And did those meetings, to the best of your recollection,

take place in person?
MR. COHEN: I believe that they were by phone.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Do you recallwhat.- l'm sorry?
UNCLASS

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57

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Mr. Cohen, in your plea agreement with the special counsel regarding lying

to Congress, you admitted that you lied to three areas, in regards to three areas
before this committee and the Senate Select Committee on lntelligence. Those

three areas are the time of your discussions surrounding the Trump Tower
Moscow project, when they ended; your agreement or willingness to travel to

Russia in furtherance of that deal; and the fact that you received a response to an
inquiry that you made to a Kremlin spokesperson. ls that an accurate summary?
MR. COHEN: lf that's what it states in the document. I don't have it to -MR. RATCLIFFE: Would you like to review it?
MR. COHEN: lwould.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Have your criminal information?
MR. COHEN:

Sure. So I don't have to read the whole thing, can you

identify?
MR. GOLDMAN: Mr. Ratcliffe, would you mind introducing it into the

record? lf it's okay with the minority ..
MR. RATCLIFFE: I'm happy to offer

it.

I

offered it because the witness

asked to use it to refresh his recollection, which is why I'm providing it to

him.

But

if you're asking me to introduce it as an exhibit, I'm also happy to do that.

MR. GOLDMAN: That's up to

you. We'll talk at the break.

MR. RATCLIFFE: I don't need to introduce it as an exhibit, but I'm happy

to let the witness use it for his recollection.
MR. GOLDMAN: Okay.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Mr. Cohen, you've had a chance to review the

document. Did I provide an accurate summary of the plea agreement that you
made with the special counsel regarding areas in which you were charged and
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 58

UNCLASSTFIED

admitted lying to Congress?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: ls there anything else the Special Counsel's Office
claimed that you lied about for which you have not been charged?
MR. COHEN: Not that I'm aware of.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Ratcliffe, there are 5 minutes remaining on the vote
I don't know if there's an appropriate breaking point for you, but

-

MR. RATCLIFFE: This is fine for members. I'm happy to recess.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Why don't we recess here? We'll come back
immediately following votes.
IRecess.]

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 UNCLASS

59

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[12:15 p.m.]

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, we're going to go back on the record.
A couple things before we

do.

As you might expect after 2 days of full

testimony, Mr. Cohen is pretty exhausted. We are going to go until 5 o'clock

today.

Mr. Cohen has agreed to come back on March 6th, because we don't think

we'll get through our questions by

5:00.

So we'll make sure that we diwy up the

time equally between now and then.
And I want to remind my colleagues also, it's perfectly appropriate for staff
to meet and have proffer sessions with witnesses. And l'm sure those of you that
were former prosecutors did the same with witnesses to prepare for their
testimony.

And, with that, Mr. Ratcliffe or

-

MR. COHEN: l'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, can I

the record or at least expand upon

-

I

would like just to correct

it. When I was asked how many hours ..

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MR. COHEN:

-

I had met with staff from the Democratic side, I interpreted

that question to mean approximately how many hours did you speak with them.
I

want to just be clear that directly after my surgery, my shoulder surgery,

I

was unable to come to D.C., and I asked for the courtesy, because I wanted to
read my prior testimony. So they brought the testimony to

me.

And we probably

were in the same room together for about 12 hours, but only speaking for 5 or 6
hours, but we were in the same room.

So I wanted just to be accurate for the record.
THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Cohen.
Mr. Ratcliffe.
UNCLASS

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60

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MR. RATCLIFFE: Thank you, Chairman.
So, to clarify, you had four meetings with the majority staff where you were
together for a total of approximately 12 hours but spent approximately 4 to 5 hours
discussing

-

MR. COHEN: About half of it was in conversation, and approximately 12
hours or so.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Fair enough.
Mr. Cohen, when we left, I had requested that you review your plea

agreement, and I had summarized.the three areas of testimony before this
committee and the Senate Select Committee on lntelligence that you were
charged with by the special counsel as being untruthful testimony. You related

that I had accurately summarized that, correct?
MR. COHEN: ldid, correct.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And then I asked you whether or not there was anything

else about the Special Counsel's Office that you were aware of where they
claimed that you lied or had not yet been charged, and you told me that

-

MR. COHEN: That I am unaware.
MR. RATCLIFFE: I asked you those questions because you were charged

with lying about three specific areas in your prior testimony, yet you obviously
testified about a great deal more than that back in October of 2017 before this

committee. So maybe a good place for me to start about what is truthful about
your prior testimony and confirm what truthful statements you previously made.
So I would like to start by asking you about prior statements that you made
about the lack of collusion, conspiracy, or coordination between Donald Trump or
his campaign and the Russian Government, for which I assume were true because
UNCLASSIF]ED

 UNCLASS

61

I FIED

the special counsel did not charge you, but I think we need to go through those.
MR. COHEN: So

-

MR. MONICO: Congressman, are you going to refer to his prior
testimony?
MR. RATCLIFFE: lam.
MR. COHEN: Can I have a copy of the

-

MR. RATCLIFFE: You absolutely may.
MR. COHEN: Thank you.
MR. RATCLIFFE: We'd like to enter that as HPSCI minority exhibit 1 and

let Mr. Cohen review it while I ask him questions.
[Cohen Exhibit No.

1

was marked for identification.l
MR. RATCLIFFE: Are you ready, Mr. Cohen?
MR. COHEN: ln 10 seconds, please.
Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So, at the bottom of page 49, Mr. Gowdy asked you to
provide a definition of the meanings of the words "collusion," "conspiracy," and
"coordination."

And you provided the statement on the top of page

50: "'Collusion' I would

define as working with at least one additional individual for the purpose of
effectuating a result. 'Conspiracy,' I would add that they knew what they were
intending to do was improper. And 'coordination,' I would say that you facilitated
in some act to create the collusion."
Can we accept those definitions, or do you feel the need to redefine those?
MR. COHEN: Seems okay.
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 62

UNCLASSI FIED

MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. So let me ask you this question, Mr. Cohen:

Do you have any information or evidence of collusion between then-Presidential

candidate Donald Trump and the Russian Government to either interfere with or
influence the GOP primary in 2016 or the general election in 2016?
MR. COHEN: So information that I provided, whether it was yesterday or
to the Senate Select, when we're referring to evidence of collusion, statements

that I had made is suspicion of collusion as opposed to direct evidence.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So was your statement to the Oversight Committee a

fair summary, both in writing and orally, of what you believe those suspicions to
be?

MR. COHEN: Which statement are you referring to?
MR. RATCLIFFE: The statement that you gave as an opening remark to

which you further commented on before the Oversight Committee yesterday.
MR. COHEN: I don't know specifically. The statement obviously

-

you're

talking about yesterday's statement?
MR. RATCLIFFE: Yes.
MR. COHEN: lt was 25 minutes

long. You can refer to what you're

--

MR. RATCLIFFE: Absolutely. On page 17 of your statement -- and I'll
read it for you, if you'll accept my representation that I'm reading it accurately.
MR. MONICO: ls it yesterday's transcript, sir?
MR. RATCLIFFE: Yesterday's testimony that you all submitted.
MR. GOLDEN: Are you introducing this

-

MR. RATCLIFFE: I'm going to read the testimony and ask the witness

whether or not this is what he's referring to.
MR. RATCLIFFE: On page 16 of your written statement before the
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 UNCLASS

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63

ED

Oversight Committee yesterday, at the bottom, it reads, quote: "Questions have
been raised about whether I know of direct evidence that Mr, Trump or his
campaign colluded with Russia. I do

not.

I

want to be

clear.

But I have my

suspicions."
MR. COHEN: I acknowledge that statement, yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.

And then would you also acknowledge that, on the following page, the sum
and substance of those suspicions relate to conversations that occurred in 2016
and 2017, as you recall, including Don Jr. and the President?
MR. COHEN: I'm so sorry,

sir.

Say that again,

please. I don't know if

there was a question in that.
MR. RATCLIFFE:
suspicions

Yeah. The question was I want to find out what your

were. And the only suspicions that you identify

in your written

statement or in your testimony yesterday was about a meeting that took place
where you were called a year after it occurred. lt was reported that Don Jr. had a
meeting in Trump Tower, and you had the recollection that a year before that he
had had a conversation where you alleged to have overheard Don Jr. saying, the

meeting is all set, and the President saying, okay, good, let me know.
MR. COHEN:

Okay. That's not accurate. What I said was that I had

suspicions. And, yes, one of them was the Don Trump, Jr., conversation with

Mr.

Trump. There was another one regarding the Roger Stone telephone call that
was in Mr. Trump's office at the

time. The third

one was when I was with Alan

Garten in my office at Squire Patton Boggs. And the fourth one was continuing
the party line on the communication. Yes, when I testified.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And so would that have been information that the
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special counsel was aware of, or did you only share it with Members of Congress?
MR. COHEN: I don't

recall. I spent 70 hours with the special counsel.

They asked me everything and

-

MR. SWALWELL: Seventeen or 70?
MR. COHEN: Seven-zero. That means we talked about a lot.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So what I'm trying to find out, Mr. Cohen

-

and I have a

series of questions, statements that you made under oath, for which you have not

yet been charged. I'm trying to determine whether or not these are still truthful
statements, according to you under oath today, whether they were asked before or
not.

So my question to you is : and I would like an answer

-

do you have

information or evidence of collusion between then-Presidential candidate Donald

Trump and the Russian Government to either interfere with or influence the GOP
primary in 2016 or the general election in 2016?
MR. COHEN: So

-

MR. DAVID: Excuse

me.

lt's been asked and answered.

MR. RATCLIFFE: He hasn't answered it.
MR. COHEN: I did, actually. And you read it into the record. You read it
into the

record. I stated -- and I was clear about it - that I have no direct

evidence of collusion between Mr. Trump, the campaign, or Russia.
What I stated was that there were suspicions, and I enumerated them.

And I just did it again for you before. The Don Jr. conversation, the Roger Stone
conversation, the Alan Garten meeting, as well as the party line.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So you would

-

MR. COHEN: I stand by my statement.
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MR. RATCLIFFE: Well, your answer in 2017 before this committee was:

"No,

sir." So I want to find out -MR. DAVIS: Excuse

me.

What's the entire answer, sir?

MR. RATCLIFFE: The answer is "no, sir."
MR. DAVIS: The question that produced the "no, sir" was the word "direct
evidence."
MR. COHEN: No, there's no -- "Do you have any information, evidence of

collusion?" We were not talking about -- we're talking the difference between
direct evidence or what I stated, which was suspicion.
MR, DAVIS:

Okay. So you made the distinction, which lwould appreciate

the Congressman -MR. COHEN: Well, we just put it on the

between my suspicion, which is what
MR. RATCLIFFE: All

right.

-

record. lt was the difference

yes.

Do you have any evidence or information of

coordination between then-Presidential candidate Donald Trump to interfere with
or influence the 2016 primary or general election?
MR. COHEN: And can I ask you to please insert the word "direct" before
evidence?
MR. RATCLIFFE: No, I'm asking you about the statement that is as read.
MR. COHEN: I have no direct evidence of any information of coordination
between then-Presidential candidate Donald Trump to interfere with or influence

the 2016 primary or general election.
MR. RATCLIFFE:
because words matter.
MR. COHEN: Yes.
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Okay. So I want to be real clear with you, Mr. Cohen,

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MR. RATCLIFFE: I'm sorry, Mr. Davis?
MR. DAVIS: I said to myself, Counsel, that we spent yesterday, over and
over again, my client saying that he lied and was charged. And for you to remind
him again and again of the consequences if he lies again is a borderline
harassment technique that I object to.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Well, Mr. Davis, so that we're real clear, that's the
reason that I went over the three areas that he was charged with.
MR. DAVIS: Correct. Right.
MR. RATCLIFFE: I'm asking about statements that he made under oath
for which he has not yet been charged. I want to find out if those are truthful

statements or not.
MR. DAVIS: Fair enough.

THE CHAIRMAN: I thank both gentlemen. ljust think we should be
careful to suggest "not yet been charged," which is essentially alleging that he will
be charged. And I know that may not be your intention, but I think we should be

careful about that.
MR. RATCLIFFE: I appreciate the edification.
So, again, do you understand the question, Mr. Cohen? Would you like
me to repeat it?
MR. COHEN: I don't know if there was a question.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Do you have any evidence or information of

coordination between then-Presidential candidate Donald Trump to interfere with
or influence the 2016 primary or general election?
MR. COHEN: And I already answered that question. I have no direct

evidence of any information of coordination between then-Presidential candidate
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Donald Trump to interfere with or influence the 2016 primary or general election.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And is that true with regard to collusion?
MR. COHEN: I have no direct evidence of any collusion.
MR. RATCLIFFE: ls that true with respect to coordination?
MR. COHEN: I have no direct evidence of any coordination between

then-Presidential candidate Donald Trump to interfere with or influence the 2016
primary or general election.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And is that true with respect to conspiracy?
MR. COHEN: I also have no direct evidence of any conspiracy between

then Presidential candidate Donald Trump to interfere with or influence the 2016
primary or general election.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.

So now l'm going to ask you the same questions as it relates to his official

campaign. Do you have or are you aware of any evidence, regardless of source,
of any collusion between the campaign of Donald Trump and the Russian
Government?
MR. COHEN: Do I have any suspicion?
MR. RATCLIFFE:

No.

Do you have any evidence?

MR. COHEN: I have no direct evidence of any.
MR. RATCLIFFE: The same question with regard to any evidence
regarding coordination by the campaign.
MR. COHEN: I have no direct evidence of any coordination.
MR. RATCLIFFE: The same question with regard to any evidence
regarding conspiracy as it pertains to the Trump campaign and the Russian
Government.
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MR. COHEN: I have no direct evidence of any.
MR. RATCLIFFE: You were asked by Mr. Gowdy about a statement

where you said -- and, actually, let me hand to you

- actually,

before I do that, let

me ask you this.
Earlier today, I want to make sure that I heard you say correctly that, in
response to a question from Mr. Mitchell, whether Donald Trump had ever

expressed interest in doing projects in Russia, and your testimony, as I heard it,
was "a handful of times." Do you recall that?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: ls that accurate?
MR. COHEN: I recall conversations where Mr. Trump would, yes, say
that

-

it wasn't

just Russia; it was anywhere. I've spoken to Mr. Trump about

doing a potential project in Romania or in

ltaly.

So

-

MR. RATCLIFFE: But my question is -. why I'm trying to get to

- because, again, words matter - is whether or not, in response to the question
about it

MR. MONICO: Page and line, please.
MR. COHEN: No, this is from this morning.
MR. RATCLIFFE: This is from today in response to a question from
Mr. Mitchell, whether or not you had ever heard Mr. Trump express interest in

doing a project in Russia during your time with The Trump Organization, and you
said "a handful of times."
MR. COHEN:

Yes. And I stand

MR. RATCLIFFE: All

right. And you started with the company in 2007.

MR. COHEN: Correct.
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MR. RATCLIFFE: And the Trump Tower project, discussions about that

actually began in earnest in or around 2015?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.

And you also testified that you were with Mr. Trump during your tenure at
The Trump Organization almost every day?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And sometimes with him sometimes 10 to 20 times a
day.
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So is it your testimony that, from2007 to 2015, as you
were with Mr. Trump almost every day, sometimes '10 to 20 times a day, that you

heard him express interest in doing a project in Russia a handful of times?
MR. COHEN: Correct.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
MR. COHEN: That's excluding the Trump Tower Moscow project.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So I'm going to hand to you a copy of
needs a copy

- of a letter that you submitted

:

and anyone that

to this committee on August 14 of

2017.
lCohen Exhibit No.2
was marked for identification.l
THE CHAIRMAN: lf I could just interrupt for a moment. We provided all
the exhibits to the minority, upon your request. We were not provided any
exhibits, I don't believe, until now from the minority in return. Are there other
exhibits you plan to put before the witness? lf so, I would ask that you show
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reciprocity and provide those to us.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Again, l'm only

-

I'm happy to just have the witness

refer to these, as your counsel requested. I can or don't have to make them

exhibits. lt was not my intention to make them exhibits, but that was the first
request from your counsel today, so I'm obliging that.
I

don't have intentions for other exhibits, but if every document that the

witness wants to review should be made an exhibit, I'm happy to do that.

THE CHAIRMAN: I'm less concerned about whether they're entered as
exhibits, but if there are documents you intend to put before the witness, if you
could provide those, the way we have provided ours to you, that's what we'd ask.
MR. RATCLIFFE: I have no objection to that.
MR. BITAR: To be clear, the totality of those documents.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So, in your prior testimony, Mr. Cohen, you were
unequivocal with regard to your references as it pertained to what has been
referred to as the dossier or the Steele dossier.

And, in fact, your prior counsel submitted a letter to this committee about
which you were asked during your prior testimony. And, again, I want to review
that to determine which of the statements that you previously made about this
remain truthful.
MR. COHEN: Okay.
MR. RATCLIFFE: On page 56, Mr. Gowdy asked you whether or not you

were aware of any facts attributed to you, any actions attributed to you to be
accurate, as it pertained to the dossier, and your answer was "no,
a truthful answer?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
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sir."

Was that

 UNCLASS

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MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.

So, in your letter, I'm going to refer you to the second

page. I want to walk

through some of those allegations to confirm, in fact, that none of these allegations
are truthful.

The first one, the allegation from the dossier that Kremlin insider reports
Trump lawyer Cohen's secret meeting with Kremlin officials in August 2016
was/were held in Prague.
Your prior testimony that this was false, was that a false statement?
MR. COHEN: lt is a false statement.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.

The next allegation, that Rossotrudnichestvo was being used as cover for
this relationship, and its office in Prague may well have been used to host the
Cohen Russian Presidential administration meetings.
ls that a false statement?
MR. COHEN: That's a false statement.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All

right. And, again, you testified yesterday that you've

never been to Prague.
MR. COHEN: I've never been to Prague.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All

right. And that you're not familiar with the name of

that organization?
MR. COHEN: No.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Next allegation, that Kosachev, also plausibly deniable,

being part of the Russian legislature rather than executive, had facilitated the
contact in Prague and, by implication, may have attended the meetings with
Cohen there in August.
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ls that a false statement?
MR. COHEN: That's a false statement.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All

right. And you stated then and do you state now

that you don't know Mr. Kosachev?
MR. COHEN: I do not know Mr. Kosachev.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Next allegation: Cohen met officials from the PA Legal
Department clandestinely in an EU country in August of

2016. This was in order

to clean up the mess left behind by Western media revelations of Trump
ex-campaign manager Manafort.
ls that a true statement?
MR. COHEN: No, it's not.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.
By the way, have you ever been to Russia?

MR. COHEN: I've never been to Russia.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.

The next allegation

-

MR. COHEN: Could I also just state for the record, since it comes up in

every paper, I've never been to anywhere in the Czech Republic.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So noted.
MR. COHEN: Thank you.
MR. RATCLIFFE: The next allegation: A key role in the secret Trump

campaign-Kremlin relationship was being played by the Republican candidate's
personal lawyer, Michael Cohen.
Your prior testimony, both in writing and in the transcript, was that that was
a false allegation and that you were aware of no secret Trump campaign-Kremlin
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relationship. ls that true?
MR. COHEN: That is true.
MR. RATCLIFFE: I mean, it is true that it is a false statement?
MR. COHEN: !t is a false statement.
MR. RATCLIFFE: The next allegation from the dossier that alleged that

Kremlin insider outlines important role played by Trump's lawyer Cohen in a secret
liaison with Russian leadership.
Your testimony before was that that was absolutely and totally

false. Was

it absolutely and totally false?

MR. COHEN: Well, looking back, I'm not sure what they refer to as an

important role or the secret liaison that they're referring

to. lf it meant discussions

regarding the Trump Tower Moscow project, if they believe that that is the secret
liaison, then my statement would be inaccurate. I don't know what they're
referring to.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.
MR. COHEN: I took the position at the time

-

!'ve never been to Prague.

I've never been to the Czech Republic. I never went there with a satchel of cash

to clean up anything for Paul Manafort. I actually didn't even engage in that many
conversations with Paul Manafort while he was there.

And I found all of the press, the extensive press against me, I found it just to
be irritating. And I have no idea what Mr. Steele or the dossier is referring to
when they're talking about secret liaison. lf that means a telephone call, then
wouldn't know.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Well, did you play an important role in anything?
MR. COHEN: Not in my opinion.
UNCLASSIFIED

I

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MR. RATCLIFFE: Were you ever part of a secret liaison, in your opinion?
MR. COHEN: The answer is no.
MR. RATCLIFFE: With Russian leadership?
MR. COHEN: ln order to do anything with this election? The answer is
no.

MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.

The next allegation: Cohen engaged with Russians in trying to cover up
the scandal of Manafort and exposure of Page and meets Kremlin officials secretly
in the EU in August in pursuit of this goal.

ls there anything truthful in that statement?
MR. COHEN: This is number 7.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Anything truthful about that statement?
MR. COHEN: There's nothing
MR. RATCLIFFE: Next

truthful. lt's a false statement.

-

MR. COHEN: And, again, ljust want to make a note that August, at that

time, I was in Los Angeles, California. I provided copies of the itinerary for that
time.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.

The next allegation in the dossier: Kremlin insider highlighted the
importance of Republican Presidential candidate Donald Trump's lawyer, Michael

Cohen, in the ongoing secret liaison relationship between the New York tycoon's
campaign and Russian leadership. Cohen's role had grown following the
departure of Paul Manafort as Trump's campaign manager in August o12016.
ls that a false statement?
MR. COHEN: Both of those statements are false.
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MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.

The next allegation: Cohen was now heavily engaged in a coverup and
damage-limitation operation in an attempt to prevent the full details of Trump's
relationship with Russia being exposed.
ls that a false statement?
MR. COHEN: To the best of my knowledge, that's a false statement.
MR. RATCLIFFE: ln the commentary that you provide or your lawyer
provides there, it

says:

Mr. Cohen denies the allegation, and it is entirely false.

Mr. Cohen is not aware of any impropriety relating to Mr. Trump's relationship with
Russia.
Was that a true statement?
MR. COHEN: As it relates to direct evidence, yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Well, what other evidence do you have?
MR. COHEN: Just a suspicion, as I stated.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All
suspicions

right. So, separate

and apart from your

-

MR. COHEN: I have no direct evidence.

MR. RATCLIFFE: And are your suspicions based on any direct evidence?
MR. DAVIS: Excuse me, that's been asked and answered. He gave you

four exact examples. And you're now re-asking

four?

him.

Do you want to hear the

He already gave you that answer.

MR. RATCLIFFE: No, he didn't.
MR. DAVIS: Excuse

me.

The record will reflect that he gave you four

specific instances backing up the word "suspicion."
MR. RATCLIFFE: Did he give me four instances of direct evidence? My
UNCLASSIEIED

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question was -MR. DAVIS: No, you asked him about suspicions, sir, with all due respect.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Can the court reporter read the question back?
[The court reporter read back the record as requested.]
MR. RATCLIFFE: On any direct evidence.
MR. DAVIS: Suspicions. He gave you the answer to that.
MR. COHEN: No.
MR. RATCLIFFE: No direct evidence?
MR. COHEN: No.
MR. RATCLIFFE: None of the four instances relate to any direct evidence,

to be clear?
MR. COHEN: No, other than I was present for the Alan Garten meeting.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
MR. COHEN: That was a conversation I took place

in. As it related to the

Roger Stone telephone call, I was in Mr. Trump's office.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And how would that have been direct evidence of a
relationship with

-

MR. COHEN: lt does

not.

!t has none.

MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.
So the second part of

that:

Nor is he aware of Mr. Trump having any

improper political relationship with officials of the Russian Federation.
ls that

true? I mean, is that

a --

MR. COHEN: To the best of my knowledge, yes, that is true.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So no impropriety that you're aware of,

still?

No

improper political relationship with officials of the Russian Federation, still?
UNCLASSIFIED

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77

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MR. COHEN:

believe Mr. Trump

-

Still.

I've stated I don't know how many times now I do not

I have no direct evidence of any collusion with Russia

regarding the campaign. I stated it.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Well, that's why we're making a record, Mr. Cohen.
MR. COHEN:

Okay. I totally appreciate it.

MR. RATCLIFFE: And for your -- let me tell you why I'm asking these

questions and why it's important.
MR. COHEN: Sure.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Because you've now testified that you worked with
Donald Trump for 10 years. Yesterday, you called him a racist, a con man, a

cheat, a liar, and you accused him of complicity in various crimes. Did

I

accurately summarize the testimony that you gave yesterday?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All

right. And

I'm establishing that, notwithstanding that

fact, your testimony in October of 2017 was that you were aware of no collusion,
coordinatior; or corspiracy. And you, of all people, today are still testifying
MR. COHEN: That I have no direct
MR. RATCLIFFE:

-

-

-

that you have no evidence of collusion, conspiracy, or

coordination.
MR. COHEN: l, to this day, sitting here, I have no direct evidence.
MR. RATCLIFFE: ls that accurate?
MR. DAVIS: As counsel, excuse me -MR. RATCLIFFE: Hold
ls that

on.

I

want an answer.

-

MR. DAVIS: As counsel-- don't say "excuse
UNCLASSIFIED

me."

I am going to speak.

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Then you can say "excuse me."
As counsel, he has repeatedly modified your use of the word "evidence"
with the word "direct." Yet you continue and persist to omit the word "direct
evidence."

So let the record reflect that, despite Mr. Cohen constantly changing your
expression, he is inserting the word "direct evidence." Are we clear?
MR. RATCLIFFE: That's fine.
MR. DAVIS: Thank you.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So your testimony in 2017 was you had no direct

evidence, and your testimony in 2019 is that you have no direct evidence -MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

- of collusion,

of conspiracy, of coordination between

the Trump campaign or Mr. Trump and the Russian Government.
MR. COHEN: That's what I stated.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.
Do you have any evidence, direct or otherwise, of any obstruction of justice

by Donald Trump?
MR. MONICO: Are you referring to a question on -MR. RATCLIFFE: No.
MR. MONICO: This is a direct question.
MR. RATCLIFFE: I'm asking a question.
[Discussion off the rebord.]
MR. COHEN: I'm sorry,

sir.

Obstruction of justice is a legal conclusion,

and I'm not in a position to be making any legal conclusions at this time.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Well, let me ask it more specifically. Do you have any
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evidence, direct, circumstantial, or othenruise, that Donald Trump fired Jim Comey
because he was trying to obstruct justice into the Russia investigation?
MR. COHEN: I had one conversation with Mr. Trump regarding James
Comey, where he asked me if I thought he's doing the right

thing. And I said, I

don't know enough about the facts and circumstances to give you an answer to

that.

That's about as far as the conversation I had with Mr. Trump

- President

Trump regarding James Comey.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So nothing in that conversation would be evidence of

obstruction of justice, would you agree with me?.
MR. COHEN: I'm sure my conversation wouldn't be considered evidence

either.

!t wouldn't be direct evidence.

MR. RATCLIFFE: But my question is, that, as you've related that
conversation, would not be any evidence of obstruction of justice?
MR. COHEN: I do not believe so.
MR. RATCLIFFE: lt doesn't even give you a suspicion of obstruction of

justice?
MR. COHEN: As it relates to James Comey, it does not.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And that was my question.
MR. COHEN: Ask it, and lwill answer.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So I want to be

clear. You've got no direct evidence of

collusion, coordination, or conspiracy with the Russian Government by Donald
Trump or anyone on his campaign, and you're aware of no information, direct or
circumstantial, of obstruction of justice with respect to the Russia investigation.
MR. COHEN: When he started to attack myself, my parents, my in-laws,
my wife, not wanting me to come and to testify to be here today, would you call

UNCLASSIFIED

 80

UNCLASS]FIED

that obstruction of justice?
MR. RATCLIFFE: My question was regarding the Russia investigation.
MR. COHEN: Well, are we not here talking about the Russia

investigation? I mean, I've been here for 2-112hours; we haven't stopped talking
about the Russia investigation.

So if you want to ask me a proper question, right, ask

it.

But you're doing it

in a generalway.

Listen, do you know why Mr. Trump didn't want to come and testify before

the special counsel?
MR. RATCLIFFE: Tell me.
MR. COHEN: I will tell

you.

He didn't want to because he didn't want to

get stuck in a perjury trap, which is exactly what you're trying to do to me, my
friend.

And let me say this to you, all right? ! am not concerned with your
1001 -- all

right? I have sat there. I represented Mr. Trump for 10 years. I was

as loyal as any human being can

be.

And I am going to prison.

So you can talk about that all you want, like everybody else did yesterday.
I know where I'm

going. And I know I'm going to be away from my family. And

know what got me

there. And nobody

I

- nobody believes that I would have been

looked at, I would have been going to jail but for my relationship with President

Trump. Okay?
And this document is all about the allegations against me that were raised
in the Steele

dossier. And they're not accurate. I've never been to Prague.

never cleaned up Manafort's

mess. I never had any involvement

Hillary Clinton's emails or the DNC's emails.
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I

in the hacking of

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What I stated yesterday in my testimony I stand

by.

Okay?

MR. RATCLIFFE: Are you finished?
MR. COHEN: I am.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So you mentioned in your testimony under oath just
now that you know that Donald Trump didn't want to testify before the special

counsel because he was afraid of a perjury trap.
MR. COHEN: As stated by his television attorney, Rudy Giuliani, as well.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So you know that from hearing Rudy Giuliani, or do you
know it from personal knowledge?
MR. COHEN: I know it from Rudy Giuliani. And I also know it from my
understanding of Mr.

Trump. lt's my impression.

MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay, impression. So that was going to be my

question. Did you ever hear or did Mr. Trump ever say to you that he wouldn't
testify to the special counsel because he was afraid of a perjury lrap?
MR. COHEN: No, he never told me that.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All

right.

So

-

MR. COHEN: I would also just like to note for the record he never went
and spoke to the special counsel. He only did it by paper document.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. I'm not sure -- I didn't ask a question. Was that

testimony?
MR. COHEN: No, it was just my ad lib.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
MR. COHEN: To the best of my knowledge is right.

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112:52 p.m.)

MR. RATCLIFFE: So you testified, in addition to the statements in the
dossier with respect to you that were untrue, a number came up in testimony

yesterday as it pertained to Mr. Trump.

And I want to make sure that -- well, let me just ask you, do you have any
evidence of or are aware of a videotape of Mr. Trump with Russian prostitutes, as
alleged in the Steele dossier?
MR. COHEN:

No. And I would

also like to state I truly don't believe that it

exists. I had spoken to many, many people who all claimed that they had this,
and none of them turned out to be true. And, again, I do not believe that
Mr. Trump was involved in this type of action.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.

So, in my last 5 minutes here, I want to run through a couple of things in
this first round.
You were asked a number of questions by my colleagues in the prior
interview about Russian banks, about Deutsche Bank, about money laundering.

So I want to ask you about whether or not these statements were truthful when
you gave them.
Mr. Castro asked you, to your knowledge, does Donald Trump have any

financial investments or interests in Russian banks? On page 97, your answer

was:

I'm not -MR. COHEN: I'm not aware.
MR. RATCLIFFE: -- aware. All right.
You were also asked, has Donald Trump -- on page 97

-

or The Trump

Organization ever received personal or business loans from a Russian bank or
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I

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from individuals connected with the Russian Government?
MR. COHEN: And I stated I'm not aware.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And that's stilltrue?
MR. COHEN: That's stilltrue.
MR. RATCLIFFE: To the best of your knowledge, has anyone connected
to the Trump campaign or transition team failed to report or sought to obscure any

financial relationships with Russians or Russian banks? You were asked that
question on page

98.

Your answer

was:

I'm not aware.

MR. COHEN: And l'm still not aware.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.
You were also asked, just so we're clear, are you aware of any Russian

financiers, businesspeople, anybody involved in the deals involving Deutsche
Bank with which you were involved. And your answer was -MR. COHEN: I'm sorry,

sir.

Where are you at?

MR. RATCLIFFE: Page 99.
MR. COHEN: Okay.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Your answer

was:

There were none that I'm aware of.

MR. MONICO: What line on 99?
MR. RATCLIFFE: Oh, I'm

sorry. 101.

My apologies.

MR. COHEN: No worries.
MR. MONICO: What line?
MR. RATCLIFFE: I don't have it on
starts with Mr.

Castro: Okay, just

this. lt's about halfway down. lt

so we're clear.

MR. MONICO: Got it.
MR. COHEN: And I remain, I'm unaware.
UNCLASS I

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MR. RATCLIFFE: All

right. So that was a truthful statement.

MR. COHEN: Yes, sir.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.
I

think my time for this round has expired. Thank you.

THE CHAIRMAN: ljust have a few questions before I turn it back to the
staff.

Mr. Cohen, you've been asked a number of questions about direct evidence
and suspicions. And I take it from your answers that you're drawing a distinction
between direct and circumstantial evidence?
MR. COHEN: Yes, sir.

THE CHAIRMAN: And when you talk about suspicions, are you referring
to what we might consider at times circumstantial evidence and at times a hunch?
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: You have also been asked questions that sometimes go
to legal conclusions rather than a witness' observation, what constitutes a
conspiracy or coordination or collusion.
I

you.

wouldn't describe myself as an expert in law, but I am a lawyer, as are

My understanding of "conspiracy," which would be the legal term, not

"collusion," is that it involves an agreement, an offer, an acceptance, as well as an
overt act in furtherance of that agreement. ls that your understanding as well?
MR. COHEN: lt's certainly plausible, yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: lf the Russians offered help to the Trump campaign and
the campaign said they would like that help and then met in furtherance of that
agreement, would that, in theory, meet the definition of "conspiracy"?
MR. COHEN: lf those facts, yes.
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UNCLASSIFIED

THE CHAIRMAN: Now, I know you weren't present at the Trump Tower
New York meeting, correct?
MR. COHEN: That's

correct. I was not.

THE CHAIRMAN: But you did overhear a conversation that, in retrospect,
you believe referred to that meeting?
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: And in that conversation, it was your impression they
were describing, in fact, the meeting at Trump Tower. This was a conversation
between Donald Trump and his son Don Jr.
MR. COHEN: The conversation that I overheard was very short, and it
was just that a meeting

-

back, okay, good, let me

that I set up a meeting. And Mr. Trump responded

know. So it was about setting up the meeting and that it

had been set up.

THE CHAIRMAN: And is it your belief that that discussion was potentially
about the Trump Tower New York meeting with the Russian delegation?
MR. COHEN: I ultimately -- in my mind, I concluded that, yes, it was.

THE CHAIRMAN: And did that indicate to you that Donald Trump had
knowledge, prior knowledge, of that meeting?
MR. COHEN: I do. I believe Mr. Trump had prior knowledge of that
meeting.

THE CHAIRMAN: And if that's the case -- and I'm asking you as a
lawyer -MR. COHEN: Unfortunately, sir, I was disbarred 2 days ago as a result of
this.

THE CHAIRMAN: Well, a nonpracticing lawyer.
UNCLASS

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MR. COHEN: I'll take

that.

Thank you.

THE CHAIRMAN: Would that be circumstantial evidence that Donald
Trump was a party to that agreement or potential conspiracy?
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: And if he were to later deceive people about his prior
knowledge, would that deception be potential evidence, circumstantial evidence, of
his particlpation in that agreement?
MR. COHEN: Yes, I believe it would be circumstantial evidence.

THE CHAIRMAN: The conversations you relayed the other day about
Roger Stone and the President speaking to Roger Stone about the Wikileaks

disclosures, do you recall that testimony?
MR. COHEN: Yes, ldo.

THE CHAIRMAN: And I believe you indicated that Mr. Stone on
speakerphone in your presence informed Mr. Trump that he had been in touch
with Julian Assange, that they had stolen emails or Clinton emails or damaging
emails that they were going to release. ls that correct?
MR. COHEN: That he had spoken to Julian Assange and that in a couple
of days there was going to be a massive dump that's going to affect Hillary
Clinton's campaign.

THE CHAIRMAN: And in your opinion as a lawyer, might that atso be
circumstantial evidence of participation in collusion or conspiracy around the
Russian-hacked publication of these documents?
MR. COHEN: Well, I want to be

clear. The answer would be yes, but l'm

not aware that any of us knew that Russia was involved with Wikileaks at that
time.
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THE CHAIRMAN: And you mentioned also -- well, let me ask you this.
False statements about that conversation, a false denial that the conversation took
place, would you also consider that potential circumstantial evidence of -MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN:
MR. COHEN:

- collusion or conspiracy?

Sorry. Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: You mentioned a meeting also with Alan Garten?
MR. COHEN: Yes, sir.

THE CHAIRMAN: And can you tell us who that is?
MR. COHEN: Alan Garten is now general counsel at The Trump

Organization, And prior to that, he was assistant general counsel.
THE CHAIRMAN: You referenced that in the context of this also raised
your suspicion of collusion. What in particular were you referring to?
MR. COHEN: My conversation with Alan Garten was in regard to,

I

believe, this committee's subpoena where they wanted all of my contacts from the

Trump Org server. And in order to limit the amount, because there were about
10,000, he brought to me a stack of pages and wanted me to go through each one
of those email addresses to the best of my ability to mark off which ones were
family, which ones were friends, which ones related to Trump Org business, which
ones were just solicitations, Google alerts, et cetera.

We started to engage in conversation, because at the time the news cycle
was all over the allegation that the conversation going back and forth was about

adoption. And I said, well, what's going on? Tell me what happened.
So he told me that he was with Don Jr. and that they were communicating
back and forth with Air Force
UNCLASS

I F]ED

One. And he goes, you know

how it gets, back and

 88

UNCLASS]FIED

forth and back and

forth.

He goes, it was such a process.

That was the conversation with Alan Garten.

THE CHAIRMAN: And tell me what raised your suspicion about that
conversation.
MR. COHEN: lt was about how to describe the meeting, the Trump Tower
meeting, as to whether it was about obtaining dirt on Hillary Clinton or it was about

adoption. And what he expressed to me is that, you know, Mr. Trump drafted the
first round, and it came to Don and him, and then they sent it back, and back and
forth.

THE CHAIRMAN: So what he described to you was Mr. Trump's
participation in the creation of a false statement about what took place in that
meeting?
MR. COHEN: Yes, that's how he described

it. Well, that's how

I

understood it.
THE CHAIRMAN: My colleague Mr. Ratcliffe asked you about potential
evidence of obstruction. And, again, this calls for more of your legal conclusion
thqn a factual

one.

But if Mr. Trump was involved in producing a false statement

to cover up a meeting with a Russian delegation where the subject was the
Russian Government's offer to provide dirt on Hillary Clinton, would you consider

that an act of obstruction?
MR. COHEN: lwould.

THE CHAIRMAN: Would you consider public statements from the
President lauding witnesses who weren't cooperative and/or the dangling of
pardons to be potential acts of obstruction?
MR. COHEN: That, as well as threatening individuals who want to appear,
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 UNCLASS

89

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yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: And, lastly, on the issue of the number of conversations
you had with Mr. Trump, I just wanted to be clear for the record on the subject of
Russia and a business development opportunity in Russia. The handful of times

- and I think you said this, and I don't know if the reporter caught
this, because I'm not sure it was audible enough - what you were referring to was
you spoke about

discussions prior to the Moscow Trump Tower.

project. I did say that.

MR. COHEN: Prior to the Trump Tower Moscow

THE CHAIRMAN: Vis-d-vis the questions you were asked about no
improper relationship with Russia, ljust want to be sure, you were referring to the
campaign and Russia, not the business deal that you were pursuing at the time
the President was denying any dealings with Russia. ls that correct?
MR. COHEN: lwas referring to the campaign, yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
Mr. Goldman.
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

O

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just to follow up on the suspicions that you mentioned, what is your

definition of direct evidence?

A

Something tangible, something like the check that I provided to the

Oversight Committee yesterday, emails.

O
A

Conversations?

Conversations. However, conversations are

evidence to be conversation? Maybe yes, maybe
It would have to be -UNCLASS

I FIED

no.

I

-

would I consider direct

don't know the answer.

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T

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O
A
O

And what

-

-adjudicated, I guess.
So, for instance, if Donald Trump had a conversation with Vladimir

Putin and Mr. Trump said, Mr. Putin, I need your help to win this election, would

that be direct evidence?

A
O

lt would be my testimony.

No, if that was a fact, that conversation occurred, is that what you

would call direct evidence?

A
O

Yes.

Okay.

Now, when you talk about your suspicions, okay

went through that

A
O
A

- and I think Mr. Schiff just

- is that what you would call circumstantial

evidence?

lwould.
Okay. 'And what is your definition of circumstantial evidence?
Something that's not tangible, it's coming from

me.

And my hope is

that there would be other corroborating evidence within which to prove that the
statements that I'm making are truthful.

O

So if you connect a conversation that you had with other evidence

that's unrelated, that somehow it could still be relevant or probative to the ultimate
conclusion.

A
O

Yes.

ls that

right? Okay.

Now, are you aware, Mr. Cohen, that, in law, direct evidence and

circumstantialevidence are given the same weight?

A
UNCLASS

Yes, they are.

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O

Okay.

Now, you also mentioned about -- Mr. Ratcliffe took you through a number
of statements that you made previously about collusion with Russia. ls that right?

A
O
A
O
A
O
A

Yes.

Did you have a formal role on the campaign?
I had no formal role.

Did you seek a formal role on the campaign?
No.

How involved were you, generally speaking, on the campaign?
Other than raising money and speaking on Mr. Trump's behalf as his

surrogate, I didn't.

O Did you discuss campaign strategy with Mr. Trump?
A Only as it related to the minority vote.
O And can you explain what you did?
A Yes. So when he went on the first series of rallies, ! came into his
office, and I said to him, Mr. Trump, I just want to express something to you, that,
while looking into the audience, it's very vanilla. And I said, you have no
minorities that are in the audience.
And what I did then is I started something called the National Diversity
Coalition for Trump, which was -- and then I contacted at that time my friend, very
good friend, Pastor Darrell Scott, and I put together this diversity coalition that

would encompass African-American leaders. I was successful in getting Alveda
King and others, Pastor James and others, and we built up this massive group of
people.
And we started getting
UNCLASSIFIED

-

I

found Diamond and Silk, and I got al! these

 UNCLASS

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92

ED

different surrogates to go out and to speak on his behalf, because I wanted to see
the campaign as diverse as possible.

O

How many conversations did you have with Mr. Trump about that

effort of yours?

A
O
A

A dozen.
And did you speak to other campaign members as well?
Yes, because ultimately they wanted to take over the

site.

And that is

how the whole meeting with Jim Brown for the AmeriCAN program got started.
Jim called me and asked if he could see Mr. Trump, and I said,

yes. And he says,

when? I said, how about come in tomorrow?

O

Okay.

Now, other than this effort to diversify the audience and the support, did you
have any involvement in the campaign?

A
' O
A

No, other than raising money.
Okay.

And, by the way, I raised a

lot.

So if anybody is looking for some,

I

have a lot of rich friends,

O

You said before that you know Mr. Trump and that you believe that the

reason why he did not go speak with the special counselwas because he was
concerned about a perjury

trap. "Perjury

trap" has a technical definition, but I'm

curious what you mean by that.

A

We! , you lie, you get hit with 1001 , and then you end up my

roommate.

O
A
UNCLASS

So, basically, when you say a perjury trap, it means that -lt means someone asking you a question in order to set you up, where

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93

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your answer is interpreted as not being accurate or is actually inaccurate, and
then, as I said, you get hit with the 1001.

O

And when you say set you up, does that mean that they ask you

questions that might be incriminating?

A
O
A
O
A
O
guilty

Yes.

And in order to avoid incriminating answers, you lie?
Yes.

And so is that what you mean by "perjury trap"?
Yes.
I

just want to flag

plea. ljust

paragraph 4

-

I

- Mr. Ratcliffe asked you some questions about your

want to read into the record, if it is okay with you, Mr. Ratcliffe,

don't have extra copies of it - which is on page 2.

MR. RATCLIFFE: Of the information or -MR. GOLDMAN: No, of the

- sorry -- of the plea agreement

dated

November 29,2018.
Paragraph 4

says:

ln consideration of your client's guilty plea to the above

offense, your client will not be further prosecuted criminally by this office for the
conduct set forth in the attached criminal information; for any other false
statements made by him to the U.S. Congress or to this office in connection with
the conduct described in the criminal information; and for obstructing, aiding, or
abetting in the obstruction of or conspiring to obstruct or commit perjury before
congressional or grand jury investigations in connection with the conduct
described in the criminal information.
Does that paragraph ring a bell to you, Mr. Cohen?

A

No, but I'm glad it's there.

UNCLASSIFIED

 UNCLASS

94

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O

Okay. So do you understand that this means that you can't

be

charged, at least by the Special Counsel's Office, for any false statements that you
made in your prior testimony before this committee or this Senate committee?

A
O

Yes.

Okay.

And one last

thing.

that Mr. Trump told you

A
O
A

On the James Comey conversation, I believe you said

-

He asked me -He asked you, is he doing the right thing.
Do you think that I'm doing the right

-

is it the right thing

- do you

think I should fire James Comey? And I said, I don't know enough about the
situation to give you an answer.

O

And what did you -- so you understood him to mean by "the right thing"

that he was either going to or had fired James Comey? What do you mean by,
"Am I doing the right thing?"

A

Did I -- I believe it was after, "Did I do the right

thing?" Because

was, again, all over the press. lt was just a question across the desk. And

it
I

said, I don't know enough to give you an answer.
Please understand -- and, again, I'm going to give you some insight into
Mr.

Trump. lf he wanted to fire James Comey,

he was going to fire him no matter

what.
And what he'll do is he'll ask 50 different people the same question. He'll
ask the gentleman at the door, he'll ask, you know, the guy serving him a

hamburger, it doesn't make a difference, unti! he finds somebody that's going to
agree with what his gut tells him to
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do.

And that's just how he operates. He

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operates in a way that he'll ask as many people until he gets the answer that he
wants.

O
A

Okay.

lt's very rare that you're able to convince him on something that's

opposite of the way he believes.

O

You said in your testimony a moment ago that you were unaware of a

variety of loans, some of which related to Deutsche Bank or other banks. ls that
right?

A
O
A
O

As it related to Russia.
As it related to Russia.
Correct.

Within your duties and responsibilities, were you knowledgeable of

every loan that The Trump Organization either sought or received?

A No. Actually, I was involved very little in that area.
O And just to clarify, is it your understanding in your criminal information
that you pled guilty to before the Special Counsel's Office that that related only to
the written statement that you submitted to Congress?
Do you want to take a look at

A
O
A
O

that? I believe it's minority exhibit

1.

What am I looking at?
We'll come back to

this. We'll provide

a copy for you.

Thank you.
Mr. Mitchell.
BY MR. MITCHELL:

O
A
UNCLASS

I F]

All right, sir, we're going to go back to Trump Tower Moscow -Okay.
ED

 UNCLASS

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O

.. switching gears again. And before the break, you had a

document -- I see a number of papers in front of you,

A
O

No, none of them are

that.

sir.

I don't know if

-

I returned it before.

So I have the original. I'm going to hand it to

you.

lt's a three-page

document. lt is Bates numbered MDC-H-000567 to 569, and it's majority exhibit
No.2.
I'm going to give you a moment to take a look at that document, sir.

A
O
A
O
order.

I read the document before the break.

Sir, are you generally familiar with this email string?
Yes, sir.
I

want to go to the last page. We're going to do this in chronological

The page ending in

569.

Do you see the email dated September 24,

2015?

A
O
A
O
A

Yes.

Who is that email from?
Giorgi Rtskhiladze.
And who is Giorgi Rtskhiladze?
He's a friend of mine who ultimately became a licensee for the Trump

Tower Batumi project.

O
A
O
A
O
A

Where's he from originally?
He's from the country of Georgia.
When did you first meet him?
2013, 2014, give or take.
ln what context?
Friend, m6t him through a mutualfriend, a girl named Camilla Olson,

UNCLASSIFIED

 UNCLASS

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97

who's a PR.

O
A
O
A
O
A
O

And you had business dealings with him?
No.

Well, he was involved in another project with you?
With The Trump Organization.

And where does he live?
He lives right now in Connecticut.

Where did he live at the time of this email, in September 2015, if you

know?

A
O
A
O
A
O

I

wasn't sure if it was New York or Connecticut at the time.

And you see in the signature line it refers to the Toroil Group?
Yes.

And are you familiar with that organization?
I have seen the name before, yes.

Other than simply seeing the name, do you know anything else about

it?

A
O
A
O
A

That's Giorgi's company.
What about Green Wind Energy Group?
No, that's not a name that I recognize, but I believe it's Giorgi's as well

What was Giorgi's role in the Moscow tower deal?
Well, there were two potential deals going on simultaneous. So he

had his own, and then there's the one with Felix Sater that he had nothing to do

with.

He was pitching a Trump Moscow tower deal at roughly the same time as

Felix Sater.

O
UNCLASS

Do you have any insight as to why these two different individuals,

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1 FT

98

ED

Giorgi and Mr. Sater, both approached you with proposals for a Trump Tower
Moscow deal at roughly the same time in late 2015?

A

Well, Giorgiwanted to do Trump-branded properties throughout

Eastern Europe. He's the one who also took me to Kazakhstan while we were in
the country of Georgia. Why specifically they wanted it at the same exact time,

I

don't know the answer to that.

O

Well, did you reach out to Mr. Sater prior to October of 2015

expressing an interest on behalf of Mr. Trump of establishing a Trump Tower
Moscow?

A
O
A

Did I reach out to Mr.

Sater?

Not that I'm aware of.

Same question with regard to Giorgi.
Not that I'm aware

of. They both came -

me.

O
A
O
A

UNCLASS

I EI

lndependent of any action on your part?

Yes, I believe so.
Do you think this was a coincidence?

ldo.

ED

I believe they both came to

 UNCLASS

99

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BY MR. MITCHELL:

O
here

says:

The email dated September 24,2015, that you have in front of you
Letter to the mayor of Moscow from Trump

Org.

Can you translate,

or do you need me to have it translated?
Do you recallwhether there was an attachment to this emailwith a letter?

A
O
pri'or

I don't recall.

Do you recall speaking with Giorgi about a Trump Tower Moscow deal

to receiving this email on September 24,2015?

A Yes. I spoke with Giorgi all the time.
O Okay. When was the first time that you spoke with Giorgi about a
possible Trump Tower Moscow deal?

A
O
A
O
A
O

Probably when we were in the country of Georgia or in Kazakhstan.

Okay. Which was when?
2014, twenty -- around

:

Okay. So approximately

I believe it was around 2014.

a year before you received this email?

Yes.

And did you continue having communications with Giorgi between

2014 and 2015 about this prospect?

A

Giorgi was always looking to do some type of business, so I don't have

the answer to

O

that.

I'm unsure.

Now, there is a reference here to the mayor of Moscow. Do you see

that reference?

A
O
UNCLASS

ldo.
Can you speak a little bit about what that reference relates to?

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 UNCLASS

I FI

A

100

ED

He wanted me to produce on Trump letterhead a letter to the mayor of

Moscow basically inviting him to New York City in order to talk about a potential

Trump Tower Moscow deal.

O
A

Did Giorgi explain to you why he was requesting this letter?
lt was an

invitation. lt is the formal way that he thought was the right

way to do this.

O
A
the

But did he explain to you why the mayor of Moscow?
To get potential project, to get a potential site, I guess, must be

- and this is my recollection,

that it is the mayor of Moscow that would find the

piece of property that he was talking about in order to potentially create a project.

O

And do you know whether Giorgi had connections with the mayor in

Moscow?

A

I

don't know if he

has.

I

do know that Giorgi has done business in

Moscow previously.

O
letter

Now, turning to the first page of majority exhibit No. 2, it is a

- excuse me, an email dated May 24,2015, from Giorgi to you. Do you see

that email, sir?

A
O
A
O
A
O

September 24?
Excuse me, September 24.
Exhibit

2. ls that Bates stamp 567?

Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.

And in the body of that email, you will see text that reads

- in

quotation marks, that reads "to mayor of Moscow." Do you see that, sir?

A
UNCLASS

] FI

Yes.
ED

 UNCLASS

I FI

O

101

ED

And then below that, there is what appears to be a letter. Do you

agree?

A
O
A
O
LLC?

I do agree.

Okay. Did you have any role in writing this letter?
Giorgi sent it to

me.

I may have edited it.

And do you see a reference on the second line to Global Prospect

lt says, Global Prospect LLC, a Moscow-based realestate development

company.

A
O
A
O
A
O

Yes.

Are you familiar with that entity?
I am not.

Did you do any due diligence on that entity at any time?
No.

Further down it says: participate in a project of monumental

proportions, which would be called Trump World Tower of Moscow, which would

be housed in the heart of lVloscow City development.
Do you see that?

A
O

ldo.
ls this the same location of the potentia! Trump Tower Moscow which

you were discussing with Mr. Sater?

A

There was never a site identified by Mr. Sater, and in all honesty, there

was never a site identified here either.

O

And you testified earlier that Mr. Sater and Giorgi were working

independently of one another, correct?

A

That is correct.

UNCLASSIFIED

 1.02

UNCLASSIF]ED

O
A
O

Do you know whether they had any sort of relationship?

I'm not aware they have any relationship.
Did you have any discussions with anyone within The Trump

Organization about Giorgi's proposal to you regarding a Trump World Tower
Moscow?

A
O
A

I

don't recall having any.

What about with Mr. Trump himself?
I

don't recall because I believe we were already -- I was in discussions

with Felix, and I was keeping this one kind of on the side just in case.

O

Do you recall having any conversations with any members of

Mr. Trump's family regarding Giorgi's proposal?

A
O

ldon't recall.
Do you know whether the letter was ever sent to the mayor of

Moscow?

A
O

ldon't know.
Do you know whether the mayor of Moscow traveled to New York to

meet with The Trump Organization?

A

I'm not aware he did.

MR. MITCHELL: Sir, I'm going to take that exhibit back from you and hand

you majority exhibit No. 4.
[Cohen Exhibit No.4
Was marked for identification.l
BY MR. MITCHELL:

O

lt is a one-page document, Bates numbered MDC-H-000471. Take a

look at that document and let me know when you are done.
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS

103

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A
O

Okay.

This is an email from Giorgi to you sent on September 27,2015. ls

that correct?

A
O

That is correct.
Subject Re: Trump Tower Moscow_2O15-09-23.pdf. Do you see that

as well?

A
O
A
O

Yes.
Do you recognize this email?

ldo.
First line, Giorgiwrites: Mike, as discussed, here is the general info

for the proposed TS.
Do you know what TS means?

A
O

Term sheet.
Below is a reference to Global Development Group

LLC. Are you

familiar with that entity?

A
O
A
O
A
O

No, only by name.
ls that different than Global Prospect LLC, if you know?
I

do not know.

Did you do any due diligence on Global Development Group LLC?
No.

About a third of the way down it says, "Projects: Trump residential

building," and there is a parenthetical, and it goes onto say, "and Trump World
Tower," and a parenthetical that reads, "your project concept which is being
shared with the President's Cabinet and Moscow mayor."
Do you see that?
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 to4

UNCLASSIFIED

A
O

ldo.
What was your understanding, if any, of what Giorgi meant by "shared

with the President's Cabinet and Moscow mayor"?

A

That the term sheet would be shared with the President's Cabinet as

well as the mayor of Moscow.

O

Do you have an understanding of what Giorgi's connections were with

the President?

A
O
A
O

No.

And is the reference here President Putin?
I am not aware.

Do you know whether the term sheet was shared with the President's

Cabinet --

A

I'm not aware that a term sheet -- I'm

sorry. I will let you finish

the

question.

O

Sure. You indicated

that the reference here was to a term sheet,

correct?

A
O

That is correct.

Okay.

Do you know whether the term sheet was shared with the

President's Cabinet and Moscow mayor?

A
O

I

don't recall a term sheet being prepared.

What about the fact of the project itself? Do you know whether the

project itself was shared with the President's Cabinet in Moscow?

A
O

I'm notice aware if Giorgi made any statements to anybody overseas.
Do you have any insight about the dynamic between the mayor's office

of Moscow and the Kremlin?
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A
O

ldo

not.

Did you have any conversations with Giorgi about President Putin's

role in any project regarding a Trump Tower in Moscow?

A

Only that everything in Moscow goes through the Kremlin and

ultimately is seen and approved by President Putin.

O
A

Giorgi told you that?
I believe it might have been

- or both.
O Okay.

Giorgi. lt is - or it could have been Felix.

I'm just

Did Giorgi ever talk to you, in the context of these discussions

about a potentialTrump Tower in Moscow, about the fact that Mr. Trump was also

a Presidential candidate?

A
O

Yes.

What did he say?

THE CHAIRMAN: Can I just add, are you able to hear the questions?
know the mike is far

I

away. Can you maybe move the mike over here? Try that

now.

MR. MITCHELL: Testing.
MR. COHEN: I'm

sorry. Can you repeat your question? Something

about if he mentioned anything regarding the President Putin.
BY MR. MITCHELL:

O
Putin

You indicated that you had conversations with Giorgi about President

- or excuse me, about President Trump running for President at the time

that you were having discussions about this Trump Tower project. ls that correct?

A
O
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That is correct.

Okay. Can you describe those conversations?

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A

We had many conversations. lt was no secret Mr. Trump was

running for the Presidency. While we were talking about a potential project as

well as, you know, other things, how great it would be for the two countries to be
able to have some sort of EastMest type relationship, and just to develop better

business relationship between the two countries, things like that.

O

Okay. Did Giorgi ever indicate to you that it might be easier to get

approval for the Trump Tower project in Moscow because Mr. Trump was the
candidate for President?

A
O

Not that I recall.

You testified earlier that you had a handful of conversations with

Mr. Trump from approximately 2007 through 2015 about the prospect of building

Trump Tower Moscow. ls that correct?

A

Not necessarily Trump Tower Moscow, just about developments, you

know, in Russia.

O

Okay. And after that, in October of twenty - beginning

in

October 2015, you had additional conversations with Mr. Trump about
development in Moscow. ls that correct?

A
O
A
O

About Trump Tower Moscow?
Correct.

As it relates to the one that was being represented by Felix Sater, yes.
And so, once Mr. Trump ran for President, was a candidate, you

received offers or proposals for Trump Tower Moscow?

A

Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Cohen, ljust had one question I neglected to ask

earlier. I think you mentioned there were four areas that raised your suspicion
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the issue of collusion or conspiracy, and I don't know if I heard you correctly. lt
sounded like you were saying party line?
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: What were you referring to there?
MR. COHEN: No Russia collusion. There is no business. There is no

deals. There is no -- there is just no Russia.
THE CHAIRMAN: So, by that, you are referring to the President's public
denials of any business dealings, among other things, with Russia?
MR. COHEN: Correct.

THE CHAIRMAN: Something that you knew at the time to be untrue?
MR. COHEN: Correct.

THE CHAIRMAN: Do my colleagues have questions? Mr. Swalwell.
MR. SWALWELL: With respect to that proposed letter to the mayor of
Moscow, did Donald Trump know that that request was made, that a letter to
Moscow should be sent?
MR. COHEN: Not that I recall.
MR. SWALWELL: Did anyone in the Trump family know about that
request?
MR. COHEN: Not about the Rtskhiladze proposal.
MR. SWALWELL: Did anyone else at The Trump Organization know
Giorgi?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. SWALWELL: Who?
MR. COHEN: Don Jr., lvanka, Mr.

about Eric.
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Trump. I'm not 100 percent certain

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MR. SWALWELL: What was Mr. Trump, Donald Trump, what was his
relationship with Giorgi?
MR. COHEN: Well, we had an active

deal. So Giorgi was part of the Silk

Road Group, which was the licensee on the Trump Tower Batumi project in the
country of Georgia. So he

-

MR. SWALWELL: Did they ever communicate separate of you, Mr. Trump
and Giorgi?
MR. COHEN: I don't believe so.
MR. SWALWELL: Were you an intermediary?
MR. COHEN:
I did all

Yes.

I was the

-

we'll call it project executive on that since

the papers and traveled with Giorgi to Georgia.

MR. SWALWELL: And would Donald Trump, Jr., ever communicate with
Giorgi independent of you?

so.

MR. COHEN: I don't believe

I

don't know.

MR. SWALWELL: How about lvanka?

so.

MR. COHEN: I don't believe

Again, I also don't know.

MR. SWALWELL: Did -- at the time, contemporaneous with this proposed

deal in Trump Tower, were you aware of whether Mr. Trump had ever met
Vladimir Putin before?
MR. COHEN: I'm not aware.
MR. SWALWELL: How about talk by telephone?
MR. COHEN: I'm not aware if he spoke to him by phone.
MR. SWALWELL: Would Mr. Trump talk to you about his understanding of

what Mr. Putin's role would be in any dea! in Russia?
MR. COHEN: He knew that
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MR. SWALWELL: Why do you say that?
MR. COHEN: Because we have had conversation where he knew as well

that everything runs through the Kremlin. As I said,   - it is just well known.
MR. SWALWELL: That is

all.

Thank you.

MR. COHEN: You know, I do just want to clarify one
Georgia with

- several times, the country of Georgia,

We all went. Of course, Giorgi was there as

well.

thing.

I traveled to

one time with Mr. Trump.

But Giorgi was in Mr. Trump's

office quite a few times.
MR. SWALWELL: So I guess my question then is, is it possible then that
Giorgi and Mr. Trump could have had their own line of communication that you

were not aware of?
MR. COHEN: lt is possible. Again, ljust don't believe that happened, but
it is possible. Sure.
MR. SWALWELL: Thank you.
MR. COHEN: You are welcome.

THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Speier.
MS. SPEIER: Mr. Cohen, you had two projects pending in 2015 after
Donald Trump announced his candidacy for President. Did you ever talk with
Mr. Trump about the great fortune of having these projects come to him because
he was running for President?

MR. COHEN: Not under those specific guidelines. I mean, he was out

there in the meat and the press every single

day. And, you know, I said

something yesterday, and I standby it as truthful and accurate, that early on when
discussed with Mr. Trump the date of the announcements for the

-

you know, for

the campaign, none of us ever expected to win, including the primary.
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And this was supposed to be : and this is his words
infomercial in political history. That's

-

:

the greatest

those are his words. And the fact that we

had this opportunity to build what would have been the tallest building in Europe,
no problem because, again, none of us ever expected that he was going to win.
So why this one, for example, is called Trump Tower Moscow because

Trump Tower, which is located on -- between 47th and 48th Street on FDR, on the
First Avenue across the Street from the United Nations, is 90 stories, and this one
is going to go bigger, and it was going to, you know, be named the same thing.

So, no, there was no issue in my mind or his mind at the time about continuing the
conversation.
MS. SPEIER: And then tracing back to your comments about suspicions
and/or circumstantial evidence, can you provide the committee with any other
indications you had of circumstantial evidence or suspicions of cooperation,
conspiracy, with Russian interests in the campaign?
MR. COHEN: lwill be honest: I don't understand the request.
MS. SPEIER: Well, you said you had suspicions.
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MS. SPEIER: No direct evidence, but you had suspicions that there might
have been collusion or conspiracy or coordination. And I was just asking what

those suspicions included beyond the ones you have already told us.
MR. COHEN: I can try to find for you -- as an example, when Alan Garten
came to my office and provided me that thick list of all of my email addresses,

I

could check to see if that still exists. lt was the document that he provided me for
the meeting when he was discussing with Air Force One for the statement. ls that
what you are looking for?
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MR. MONICO: I think you are looking for other events.
MR. COHEN: Oh, I'm

sorry. Sorry, ma'am. Beyond the four? Oh, I can

think about it MR. MONICO: We can think about it before the next week.
MR. COHEN: -- and try to get back to you,

yes.

Sorry.

MS. SPEIER: Thank you.
MR. MALONEY: Mr. Cohen, earlier you said that there was no discussion
on The Trump Organization side about the tension between running for President

and purs.uing a major real estate project. I think you said it never came

up. ls

that fair, when we -- when I asked you earlier?
MR. COHEN: l'm

sorry. Your question?

MR. MALONEY: My question earlier this morning was, did anyone in The

Trump Organization raise any concerns about pursuing a major realestate project
at the same time as Donald Trump was running for President?
MR. COHEN: And I said to you, not that I recall.
MR. MALONEY: So my question now is, did anyone on the Russian side
raise any concerns about the fact that they were entering into a deal presumably

with someone who was running for President of the United States?
MR. COHEN: No, not that I recall.
MR. MALONEY: Was there any discussion of conflicts of interest?
MR. COHEN: Not that I recal!.
MR. MALONEY: No discussion of any ethical concerns, financial

disclosures, any issues of any kind?
MR. COHEN: Not that I
disclosures.
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recall. Well, there would be no financial

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MR. MALONEY: You said that, on your side, The Trump Organization
side, there was an assumption that Donald Trump was going to lose the race?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. MALONEY: Did you ever have a conversation with anyone on the
Russian side about whether Donald Trump would lose the race?
MR. COHEN: No, not that I recall.
MR. GOLDMAN: Could ljust ask one question?

THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MR. GOLDMAN: Did -- there was nothing illegal about building a Trump

Tower in Moscow, right.
MR. COHEN: That is correct.
MR. GOLDMAN: Okay.

THE CHAIRMAN: I think we have a couple more minutes, and Mr. Cohen
hasn't eaten anything, so I would propose that we take a break and let him get

something quick to eat.
MR. COHEN: Thank you.

THE CHAIRMAN: All

right.

So why don't we shoot for 1S-minute break?

And then we will resume. So why don't we say at the dot of 2 o'clock?
IRecess.]

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[2:08 p.m.]
MR. RATCLIFFE: I want to go over with you your written statement to the
Oversight Committee. To the best of your knowledge, is there anything in the
statement, written statement that you submitted to the Oversight and Reform
Committee yesterday that you believe needs to be amended as incorrect at this
point?
MR. COHEN: Not that I'm aware of.
MR. RATCLIFFE:
MR.

Okay. So I want to ask you

-

HECK: I'm sorry, sir. Can you just pull that a little closer? Because

when you turn toward him, down here -- I apologize for interrupting.
MR. RATCLTFFE: You
I

bet.

No problem.

want to focus on, if you'd go to the second page, and about halfway down,

you make the statement: I'm ashamed that I chose to take part in concealing Mr.
Trump's illicit acts rather than listening to my own conscience.
And that's something I want to walk through this with you and make sure
that I'm clear on the allegations that you're making with respect to President
Trump.
When you say "illicit acts," I want to make sure we're distinguishing
between things that are illegal or things that are not

illegal. I get that you do not

like Mr. Trump.
MR, COHEN: Absolutely inaccurate.
MR. RATCLIFFE: What's inaccurate?
MR. COHEN: I have no animus towards Mr. Trump at

don't like him personally. This is not --   want to be clear.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
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all.

lt's not that

l

 UNCLASS

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MR. COHEN: I worked for the man for 10
close to

him. This doesn't

years. I was exceptionally

feel good, and I'd prefer not to be

doing I'm doing because I think it's

right.

here.

But what I'm

!'m answering to the best of my ability

the questions honestly and truthfully because the last time I didn't, I got in trouble
for it -- yes, while protecting him, for his benefit.

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[2:10 p.m.]
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. I want to ask you about that. Are you done?

MR. COHEN: I am.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. So --

MR. COHEN: You don't seem to like me very much.
MR. RATCLIFFE: I like everybody.
MR. COHEN: I actually am a pretty nice guy.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So

-

MR. COHEN: You know, I'm sorry, just one

more. You guys really did

love me when I raised about $140 million with Steve Wynn (ph) for the year, right?
MR. RATCLIFFE: Well, the reason I - whether you like Mr. Trump or not,

the fact is that

-

what I wanted to focus on was, whether you like him or not,

yesterday you said you didn't trust

him. You referred to him as a bad person,

as a

racist, as a narcissist, all of those things. And my point is this: I don't care about
that.

What I care about is I want to find out what crimes you're alleging that
President Trump or Mr. Trump, at any time point in time, as a candidate or as the
President was involved

with. And so, when you talk about

concealing illicit acts,

I

want to focus on crimes. Can we do that?
MR. COHEN: Sure.
MR. RATCLTFFE:

Okay. So we've talked already about a number of

crimes, some of which you have committed. I want to go through those just to
see very clearly whether or not you think that Mr. Trump is involved with respect to
any of those.

The first, of course, is your false statements to Congress, for which we've
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already covered, to which you've pled

guilty. I think, not to summarize your

testimony, but I heard you say a number of times yesterday that Mr. Trump did not
direct you to lie to Congress. ls that right?
MR. COHEN: He did not direct me to lie to Congress.

Okay. Did he indirectly in some way tellyou to lie to

MR. RATCLIFFE:
Congress?
MR. COHEN: Yes.

MR. RATCLIFFE: ls that through the code that you talked about earlier?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. So that the record is clear, notwithstanding

whatever statements you made yesterday, you believe that Donald Trump
indirectly told you to lie to Congress.
MR. COHEN:

Yes. That along with the statement

that was presented,

going through his counsel and others, part of the joint defense agreement.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. Can you offer any explanation for why, when

the special counsel charged you with 18 U.S.C. 1001, a false statement, he didn't
charge you with a conspiracy to lie to Congress?
MR. COHEN: You'd have to ask him that.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
So you've also pled guilty to some other

crimes. Five counts of tax

evasion, correct?
MR. COHEN: That's correct.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Did Donald Trump direct you to commit those acts for

which you pled guilty to tax evasion?
MR. COHEN: No, he did not.
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MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.

You pled guilty to one count of making a false statement to a financial

institution. ls it your testimony that Donald Trump directed you to take the actions
for which you pled guilty to making a false statement to a financial institution?
MR. COHEN: No, he did not.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.
You also pled guilty to one count of making an unlawful corporate

contribution. ls it your testimony that Donald Trump in any way directed you to
take actions for which you pled guilty to making an unlawful corporate
contribution?
MR. COHEN: lf you're referring to counts 7 and 8, illegal campaign finance

violations, one to Karen McDougalwhere there was no exchange of money, and
count 8, of Ms. Clifford, yes, it was done at the direction of Mr. Trump and in
accordance with his instructions.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. So I'l.l ask you about

that.

But so that we're clear, the tax evasion has nothing to do with Mr. Trump.
The false statement to a financial institution has nothing to do with Mr.

Trump.

ls

that fair?
MR. COHEN: Asked and answered.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.

So I guess then let me ask it this

way.

ln terms of crimes that you allege

that Mr. Trump is involved with, are there any, besides an 18 U.S.C. 1001 charge
of you lying to Congress or an unlawful corporate contribution in violation of
campaign finance laws, anything other than those two crimes?
MR. COHEN: l'm sorry,
UNCLASSIFIED

sir.

I don't understand your question.

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MR. RATCLIFFE: So we've identified two crimes that you say you believe
Donald Trump in some way directed you to take the actions for which you have
pled guilty.
MR. COHEN: No,

sir.

MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. What

Three.
is the third?

MR. COHEN: The third one is the misstatement to Congress.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Yeah. So I got that.

MR. COHEN: Two for campaign finance violation and one for
misrepresentation -- well, for lying to Congress.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.
MR. COHEN: I mean, you don't think that ljust decided to pay Stormy
Daniels money on my behalf, right?
MR. RATCLIFFE: No, I'm very clear on what your testimony
want to make sure that the record is
Mr.

Cohen.

is. ljust

clear. Again, these are not trick questions,

I'm trying to identify all the crimes that you're alleging Donald Trump

directed you to commit. And you've identified campaign finance violations and
lying to Congress.
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. And that's it?

MR. COHEN: That's correct.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Anything else?
MR. COHEN: I mean, the record is what the record

is.

Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: Counsel, can ljust seek a clarification? Are you asking
him about crimes he's aware that the President committed in conjunction with his
own

plea?

Or are you asking even beyond those offenses that he pled guilty to?

UNCLASSIFIED

 119

UNCLASSIFIED

MR. RATCLIFFE: Yeah, fair question.
So my questions initially were, of the crimes that you have committed,

which ones do you believe Donald Trump directed you to commit? And as
understand, we've covered

that.

I

You think that Donald Trump in some way

directed you to lie to Congress and to commit campaign -MR. COHEN: Count 7 and count 8.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Campaign finance violations. ls that fair?
MR. COHEN: From the plea agreement, count 7 and count 8.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.

All

right. So, looking

statement, go to page

3.

at the statements that you made in your written

You submitted documents in connection with your

testimony yesterday. And, again, to the point of trying to establish evidence that
you believe supports the allegations of any crimes involving Mr. Trump, I want to
walk through these.

The first that you identify on page 3 is the copy of the check from your
persona! account.
MR. COHEN: No,

sir.

MR. RATCLIFFE: I'm

From his personal account

sorry. From Mr. Trump's personal--

MR. COHEN: I already laid out the money once before.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. So it is your testimony that that is evidence of

the crime of an unlawful corporate contribution or a violation of campaign finance
laws?
MR. COHEN: Are you asking me for a legal conclusion?
MR. RATCLIFFE: I'm just asking you what evidence of -- well, what

evidence of
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that is evidence of what crime, in your opinion?

ED

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MR. COHEN: Well, it's a payment in furtherance of the hush money that

I

paid to Ms. Clifford.

Okay. So the campaign finance violation.

MR. RATCLIFFE:
MR. COHEN: Yes.

MR. RATCLIFFE: That's what you believe that that is evidence of, that
crime?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.

The next item that you submitted, copies of financial statements for 2011 to
2013 that he, meaning Mr. Trump, gave to such institutions as Deutsche Bank.
ln your opinion, those financial statements evidence what crime by Mr.

Trump, if any?
MR. COHEN: I'm not so sure that I'm supposed to be here acting as a

judge. Right? ljust
Whatever

-

I

lost my law license, so I'm not reaily -- I mean, I don't know.

turned it over as part of evidence simply for you guys to decide what

you want to do with

it.

lt's not for me to decide.

MR. RATCLIFFE: Well, to be fair, [Vlr. Cohen, this is your statement which
you gave to Congress. And I'm asking you why you submitted these documents.
Do you believe

- alls I'm asking you -- again, this is not a trick question.

Do you believe that these documents evidence some crime?

MR. COHEN: I don't believe, sir, in my statement I reference the 2011

through 2013 financial statements as evidence of any crime.
MR. RATCLIFFE: That's what I'm asking.
MR. COHEN:

Right. The statement reads for itself.

MR. RATCLIFFE:
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Okay. So -

 721

UNCLASS]FIED

MR. COHEN: I believe what I wrote.
MR. RATCLIFFE: You just submitted that for informational purposes.
MR. COHEN: That's correct.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. All right.

So the next item, a copy of an article with Mr. Trump's handwriting on it that

reported on the auction of a portrait of himself, that he arranged a bidder ahead of
time and then reimbursed the bidder from the account for his nonprofit charitable
foundation, with the picture now hanging in one of his country clubs.
Did you submit that because you believe it's in evidence of some crime by
Mr. Trump? And if so, what crime would that be related to?
MR. COHEN: Well, ldid it, again, for informational purposes. Plus, could

be issues regarding the foundation, improper usage of the foundation.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.

And, finally, the last item that you submitted were copies of letters that you
wrote at Mr. Trump's direction that threatened his high school, colleges, and the
College Board not to release his grades or SAT scores.
Again, was that submitted because you believe it's evidence of some crime,
or was it just for informational purposes?

MR. COHEN: lnformational.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
So, with respect to the allegations where you talk about concealing Mr.

Trump's illicit acts, the documents that you submitted in connection with your
testimony yesterday related to the copy of the check.
MR. COHEN: Checks.
MR. RATCLIFFE: ls that fair?
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MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
MR. DAVIS: Did you use the plural?
MR. COHEN: Yes, he used the plural.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Checks. He clarified.
MR. DAVIS: Thank you.
MR. RATCLIFFE: You're welcome.

All

right. So, if you would, turn to page

to confirm this just so we're

clear.

7 of that statement. Again, I want

Halfway down, your statement

reads: Yet, last

fall, I pled guilty in Federal court to felonies for the benefit of, at the direction of,
and in coordination with lndividual

1.

Did I read that correctly?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. So, again, to the question of what you pled

guilty to at the direction -- we've covered the full extent of the crimes that you
believe

-

MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

-

related to Mr. Trump, which are campaign finance

violations and lying to Congress. Right?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.

All

right.

So we've talked about different kinds of evidence today, and I'm

not going to make this a legal matter, but I want to walk through what you've
related about your suspicions as to why Donald Trump may have been colluding

or coordinating or conspiring with the Russians. And you've given us, ! delieve,
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 t23

UNCLASSIFIED

four examples, some of which are covered in this statement.
So let me ask you about

-

MR. COHEN: Boy, I wish yesterday would have gone last.
MR. RATCLIFFE: I'm

sorry. I didn't

-

MR. COHEN: I wish yesterday would have been last.
MR. DAVIS: Of the three hearings.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Got it.
So turn to page 10 of your statement and the matter that you've talked
about earlier that you believe provides some basis for suspicion as it pertains to

the conversation that you overheard with Mr. Trump and Mr. Stone. And you
were in the room in July of

2016.

I believe, for the record, to clarify, your

testimony yesterday, I believe, do you -- again, I believe your testimony was that
you think that this conversation took place on -MR. COHEN: Either on the 18th or the 19th.
MR. RATCLIFFE: 18th or 19th of

-

MR. COHEN: Yeah, and I believe it was the 19th.
MR. RATCLIFFE: To the best of your recollection.
MR. COHEN: Yes, because
MR. RATCLIFFE:

l-

Okay. So - and you state: Mr. Stone told Mr. Trump

that he had just gotten off the phone with Julian Assange.
MR. COHEN: That's accurate.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. You didn't hear -- what evidence do you have

that Mr. Stone actually had just gotten off the phone with Julian Assange or had
talked to him?
MR. COHEN: None.
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MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.

And then it goes on, that Mr. Assange had told Mr. Stone that within a few
days there would be a massive dump of emails that would damage Hillary
Clinton's campaign.
Same question. What evidence do you have that Mr. Assange actually told
Mr. Stone that?
MR. COHEN: None.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So, as lawyers, we know these are hearsay

conversations, right?
MR. COHEN: Except for the fact that it did happen.
MR. RATCLIFFE: How do you know that?
MR. COHEN: Because I read it in the newspaper.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
MR. COHEN: lt did happen.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So everything in the newspaper is true?
MR. COHEN: No.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
MR. COHEN: Only the negative stuff against me is not true.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All

right.

So

-

MR. COHEN: But they were published as well.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And so --

THE CHAIRMAN: Just for clarity, Mr. Cohen, when you said because it did
happen, you're talking about the dump of the documents?
MR. COHEN: Yes, sir.
MR. RATCLIFFE: I'm asking about the conversations.
UNCLASSIFIED

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MR. COHEN: Oh, I apologize then.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
MR. COHEN: I'll try to stay focused.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. So what evidence do you have that these

conversations actually took place?
MR. COHEN: None.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.

And so then you go on to

say:

Mr. Trump responded by stating to the

effect of, wouldn't that be great?
MR. COHEN: That was what he said to Roger Stone.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Yes. I understand.

Okay.

Assuming all of that is true, that would be evidence of what crime?
MR. COHEN: l'll leave that to you.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. Well, if the record reflects that on July 7th Mr.

Assange had actually sent out a tweet that Wikileaks was going to make a dump
of campaign-related emails of Hillary Clinton or the DNC -- and l'!l let the record

reflect, itself, whether or not Mr. Assange or Wikileaks sent out such a
tweet -- how would that be, again, evidence of any conspiracy, collusion, or

coordination by Mr. Trump?
MR. COHEN: Again, I don't want to play lawyer in this matter, but

foreknowledge of hacking of the DNC's system and the release of information,
possibly.

You know, Mr. Trump further, you know, stated to me afterwards, you know,
do you believe Roger? Because -MR. RATCLIFFE: But I guess my point is Roger Stone could have learned
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that from the tweet 12 days earlier.
MR. COHEN: That's very possible.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.

- all I did is state the conversation as
heard it. I didn't draw conclusions. You know, I didn't talk about - I didn't put in
MR. COHEN: That's not what the

I

my legal, you know, analysis of the information.
MR. RATCLIFFE: I get that, but I'm just trying to clarify the record,
because earlier today you said you believe that provided some basis for you to
make a suspicion or it was circumstantial evidence of -MR. COHEN: lt is my suspicion,

though. lt's my suspicion.

Okay. So based in part on this conversation?

MR. RATCLIFFE:
MR. COHEN: Yes.

Okay. So let me ask you about that, because I'm trying

MR. RATCLIFFE:

to understand. And, again, these aren't trick questions, Mr. Cohen. But, again,
as I think the record is clear, you spent nearly every day with Donald Trump from
2007 to 2017, correct?
MR. COHEN: That's correct.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And you said as many as 10 to 20 times a day you had
conversations with

him.

ls that correct?

MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And you also said that untilthe Trump Russia Moscow
project, you'd had a handful of conversations with him about expressions of

interest in doing something in Russia. Correct?
MR. COHEN: From 2007 all the way through 2015, yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE:
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Okay. So let me ask you then, these suspicions about

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Donald Trump potentially colluding with Russians for any purpose, when did you

first have them? Was there something about the handful times from 2007 to 2015
that gave you cause to believe that Donald Trump was in some way colluding with
Russians or was acting as an agent of the Russian Government?
MR. COHEN: From 2007 lo

2015? No. No, I don't believe during that

time that he was an agent. But I am unsure

-

MR. RATCLIFFE: So at what time did you first begin to have suspicions

that he might be colluding or conspiring or in any way coordinating with the

Russians? l'm just asking -MR. COHEN: But I'm not sure that my statement uses those words at all.

You're putting words into my mouth. I never said Donald Trump was an agent of
Russia.
MR. RATCLIFFE: I understand

that.

My question to you is

-

MR. COHEN: Nor did I say that he or the campaign were colluding.
What

.. I turned around and said that I had suspicions. And my suspicion on this

was predicated on the fact that I was in the office when Roger called. He asked
me what he asked me, do you believe Roger? I don't

know. lt's Roger. Roger's

Roger.
Next thing you know, 2 or 3 days later, out comes the emails. So did I then
believe that Roger Stone was engaging in communication with Julian Assange?

Yeah. Probably. I don't know.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So the timing of your suspicions began in or around that

time.

The first time that Donald Trump was in some way colluding or coordinating

with the Russians, it would have been in that timeframe?
MR. COHEN: Roger Stone was involved with Julian Assange, in my
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opinion .. or had some relationship, connection to him, in my opinion. Plus,
based upon the fact that he made this statement to Mr. Trump and then a couple
days later the DNC emails are released.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
MR. COHEN: And if it wasn't him who had the relationship, it was
somebody who he was speaking to that maybe had the relationship.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. Fair enough.

So my point in raising Donald Trump being an agent of the Russian
Government acting as

-

MR. COHEN: l'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over his sneeze.
MR. COHEN: The reason I raised the issue of Donald Trump

-

the

allegation of Donald Trump being an agent of the Russian Government or acting at
the behest of the Russian Government in colluding or obstructing is because by
early 2017 senior members of the Department of Justice and the FBI were making

those allegations.
I

would like to know what your impression was in early 2017 about the

possibility that Donald Trump could have been an agent of the Russian
Government, given that you had spent all day with him every day, 10 to 20 times a
day talking to him from 2007 to 2017.

Would it have been possible for Donald Trump to be agent of or acting at
the behest of the Russian Government in 2017 without you knowing it, given what
you've related about spending time with him?
MR. COHEN: When you say an agent, can you define what you mean by
an agent?
MR. RATCLIFFE: So
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MR. COHEN: I mean, I don't think Donald Trump was a double agent for

Russia here in the United States. I don't know what

-

I

truly don't know what

you're referring to.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Well, again, what I'm referring to is the public record

that senior officials at th'e Department of Justice and the FBI were investigating
Donald Trump and the Trump campaign upon the concern that he was acting at

the behest of the Russian Government. ljust want to know, in 2017, when you
heard that

-

MR. COHEN:

Okay. So I can't tellyou

he was acting as an

agent. We're

acting in the best interest of The Trump Organization for financialgain when it
came to the Trump Tower Moscow project. That's what we were doing.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
MR. COHEN: I don't know about agent and whether or not he was -- or he

was providing classified information to Vladimir Putin. lt's none of my .. this isn't
my -- it's not my swimming
know, clandestine

lane.

I've never seen Mr. Trump engaging in any, you

-

MR. RATCLIFFE: And that's my point.
MR. COHEN: Right.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And you were with him every day for 10 straight years.
MR. COHEN: lwas with him a lot, yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And that's my point, is do you think you would have
known that?
MR. DAVIS: Excuse

me.

Just for clarification

-

MR. RATCLIFFE: lt's just an opinion.
MR. DAVIS: -- you're asking him what his opinion is about what would be
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the case based upon his past experiences?
MR. RATCLIFFE: Again

- yeah. Respectfully, I guess what I'm getting at

is --

MR. COHEN: I don't think he's an agent of Russia. I think he likes
Russian women, but I don't think he's an agent of Russia.
MR. MONICO: That's not a crime, liking Russian women.
MR. COHEN:

No.

Actually, it's funny, I have a document that he wrote on

the Miss Universe Pageant with a letter that he had sent, I think, to Vladimir Putin:
"Russian women are beautiful," with an exclamation

mark. So, yes, he does like

Russian women, for the record.
MR. RATCLIFFE: I may yield to my colleague from Texas, Mr. Conaway.
MR. CONAWAY: I'll talk real loud.
On page 3, you said that you filed false financial statements with Deutsche

Bank. Was Deutsche Bank your largest creditor? Or how did you -- l'm sorry,
page 3 of your statement. Was Deutsche Bank your largest creditor? Why did

you list that bank and not some other bank?
MR. COHEN: Congressman, I don't agree with your question. I never
stated that Mr. Trump filed false financial statements with Deutsche Bank.
MR. CONAWAY: No, I said you did.
MR. COHEN: I didn't say

that. Where do you -- that's not what it says.

MR. CONAWAY: All right, so why did you list Deutsche Bank on your

statement? ls that the largest creditor at that point in time?
MR. COHEN: My creditor? Or are you talking about The Trump
Organization?
MR. CONAWAY: I assume those copies of financial statements that you
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filed were your financial statements.
MR. COHEN: No,

sir.

They're personalfinancial statements of Donald

Trump.
MR. DAVIS: They're publicly available, and they were seen by hundreds of
millions of people.
MR. CONAWAY: I'm just trying to figure out why that bank.
MR. DAVIS: Take a look at the public statements that were filed
MR. CONAWAY: All

-

right. Thank you.

MR. COHEN: I referred, back in

- just to save you some time. ln my

statement, I talked about how we used that financial statement when we were
looking to obtain money when we were looking to purchase the Buffalo Bills.
MR. CONAWAY: All right.

Then, on page 10, that timeframe, that phone call in 2016, you were still
lawyer for President Trump

- or candidate Trump, Mr. Trump?

MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. CONAWAY: You had a license at that time?
MR. COHEN: ldid.
MR. CONAWAY: So I'm a CPA, not a lawyer.
MR. COHEN: Could've used you.
MR. CONAWAY: lf you believed at that time that he was doing some

wrong, did you have some sort of duty as a lawyer to tell him that?
When you overheard the phone callwith

- alleged phone call between

Stone and Assange and then the phone callyou overheard with Stone and
President Trump, you said that added to your suspicions that something was
AMISS

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a

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As a lawyer, would you have had a duty to tell your client and/or your
employer that something was out of whack with that?
MR. COHEN: Based off of my suspicion?
MR. CONAWAY: Yes.
MR. COHEN: I don't know the answer to that.
MR. CONAWAY: Were you a lawyer at that time?
MR. COHEN: That doesn't mean that I know every fact and circumstance
of what I should

do.

lf I would've said that to Mr. Trump, I would've been fired

immediately.
MR. CONAWAY:

Yeah. You're a member of the bar, and the bar has a

code of ethics, and you're telling me that at that point in time you were unfamiliar
with the bar's code of ethics in terms of your duty as a lawyer?
MR. COHEN: That's not what I'm saying. That's not what !'m saying, sir.
MR. DAVIS: Please don't put words in his
please.
MR. CONAWAY: Okay.
MR. DAVIS: Thank you, sir.

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[2:38 p.m.]
MR. COHEN: lf every time that there was something that seemed amiss

that I overheard, I'd spend half of my day looking up to see whether or not I was
responsible to tell him on every single thing that's wrong that he's

doing. I would

probably last there all of 10 seconds.
MR. CONAWAY: So you're saying then that you weren't really a lawyer in

that full sense.
MR. COHEN: When lwas sitting in that room -MR. CONAWAY: Yeah.
MR. COHEN:

- at the time? I don't know what I was working on. I did

do some legalwork, but, no, lwas
10 other counsels that were

not.

There was general counsel; there were

there. I was his special counsel.

My job was to take

care of matters that were of significance and importance to him.
MR. CONAWAY: So you didn't believe that that phone call was a matter of

significance to him from a legal standpoint, based on your training as a lawyer.
MR. COHEN: I didn't consider it at the time, no.
MR. CONAWAY: Thank you.

lyield back.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All

right. So I think you've made

clear your

recollections for the record regarding the Roger Stone conversation that you
believe serves as the basis for your suspicions. I want to ask you now about the
meeting that involved Don Jr. that you relayed on page 16 and 17 of your written

statement, if you'd turn to that.
And as I mentioned earlier, at the bottom
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that you did not have direct evidence that Mr. Trump or his campaign colluded with
Russia but you had your suspicions.

And then you, on page 17, relate an eventthattook place in the summerof
2017 , correct?

MR. COHEN: The meeting took place in June of 2016.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Right. But as I read this, the meeting took place

in

June of 2016 with Don Jr., the President, and you, where Don Jr. came into the
room and walked behind his father's

desk. That happened

in

:

MR. COHEN: June of 2016.
MR. RATCLIFFE: June of 2016.
MR. COHEN: Approximately, yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: But your testimony, just so I'm trying to make sure that
l'm clear, it was a year later, in the summer of 2017, that you first learned about

the Trump Tower meeting, as people refer to it in the news?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. RATCLIFFE: All

right.

So your testimony is that in 2017 you

remembered something from a year earlier and that it was this

-

- episode.
MR. RATCLIFFE: : episode, that you heard Don Jr. say, the meeting is all

MR. COHEN:

set, and Mr. Trump saying, okay, good, let me know.
MR. COHEN:

Yes.

I actually state that in my paragraph itself.

Something clicked in my mind.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.

So I want you to explain for

me.

You've gotten it written down here.

When you say that you know this meeting was related to the Trump Tower
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meeting and that's what they were referring to, explain to me how you know.
MR. COHEN: I don't know 100 percent for certain, but I said something

just clicked in my

mind. I was sitting, watching television, and I had seen

also in

the newspapers, when they, especially with CNN, had a bunch of silhouettes of
individuals, and they were talking about this meeting that Don Jr. attended

with

-

whatchamacallit

-

with Jared Kushner and Manafort, and ! said, ah, I bet

that was -- that's got to be the meeting, because it was just so odd

-

MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
MR. COHEN:

-

that he walked in -- normally, you know, he would shout it

from the door or he would call his father from the

just

phone.

He just came in and he

MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. And I just want to make --

MR. DAVIS: Let him finish, please.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. Fair enough.

MR. COHEN: And that's just how it happened. So, in my mind,
something just clicked, and I believe that that's the meeting that they were
referring to.

MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
MR. COHEN: Now, I have no evidence to give to you other than the
statement was -- telling you that the statement was made and that just was my
impression of

it.

lt was my suspicion.

MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. And l'm trying to be fair about this, but ..

MR. COHEN: And it's all stated in my statement. Allwe're doing is we're

parsing my words.
MR. RATCLIFFE: No, but I'm
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not.

Because what your words were today,

 136

UNCLASSIFIED

what you just said was, I'm not 100 percent certain. And in your statement, you
say on page 18, Mr. Trump knew that

- knew that was the meeting Don Jr. was

talking about. And .MR. COHEN: No,

sir.

Sir, that's

unfair. That's unfair.

MR. RATCLIFFE: All right.
MR. COHEN: This is why I said that you're parsing

words. So, comma,

I

concluded that Don Jr. was referring to that June 2016 Trump Tower meeting.

Right? lt's my conclusion. lt's my conclusion.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
MR. COHEN: Okay.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So you don't know.
MR. COHEN: And that Mr. Trump

knew. So the answer is, I sit here

before you and I'm telling you that, no, lam not 100 percent certain. As lsaid, it

was my suspicion.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Great.
MR. COHEN: And that's how lwrote it.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Thanks for clarifying.
MR. COHEN: You're welcome, sir.
[Discussion off the record.]
MR. RATCLIFFE: So I want to ask you, earlier today, I thought I heard you

use, in referring to the Trump Moscow project, at one point .. and I may have

misheard. I thought you heard you say "letter of interest" and -MR. COHEN: lntent.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Letter of intent.
MR. COHEN: Never "interest." "lntent."
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MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. And remind me of the date of the letter of intent.

MR. COHEN: lt was signed October 28th.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Of?
MR. COHEN: 2015.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. And a letter of intent would be nonbinding?

MR. COHEN: Absolutely not binding.
MR. RATCLIFFE: So how many letters of intent -- can you give me an

estimate of how many letters of intent, like the one involving the Trump Moscow
project, as it's been referred to, are signed by The Trump Organization or on
behalf of The Trump Organization every year?
MR. COHEN: Quite a few.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Like?
MR. COHEN: I don't know because -MR. RATCLIFFE: I'm trying to get an

or are we talking hundreds, or are we talking
MR. COHEN:

No.

I

would

say:

I

idea.

Are we talking, like, dozens,

-

would say --

MR. RATCLIFFE: lf you know.
MR. COHEN: Actually, I don't

know. I don't know exactly. ljust know

that there was always projects that were in the works.
MR. RATCLIFFE: A lot?
MR. COHEN:

Yeah. There was always something going

on.

MR. RATCLIFFE: And can you give me any estimate of the percentage of
letters of intent that become actual contracts?
MR. COHEN: A small number.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Can you give me an estimate?
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MR. COHEN: Less than 5 percent.
MR. RATCLIFFE:

Okay. So the fact that there was a letter of intent with

this project would be indicative of the fact that it's a long way from being an actual
deal that was going to be consummated.
MR. RATCLIFFE: The deal doesn't get consummated until definitive

documents are drawn and executed. The fact is, in this case, the letter of intent is
open, and it's just considered an active potential project.
MR. RATCLIFFE: And, again, so the record's clear, when this project that

resulted in the letter of intent on October 28,2015, when you first broached the
subject of it with Mr. Trump, his reaction was, be careful.
MR. COHEN: Yes, with Felix.
MR. RATCLIFFE: Okay.
I'm at a good breaking

point.

Do you have any questions?

Okay. All

right.

We'll pass the remaining time for this round and start on the -THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Ratcliffe.
I

just have a couple questions before I turn it back to staff.

Mr. Cohen, you were asked about your conclusion that the meeting you

heard Don Jr. talking to his father about was the meeting with the Russian
delegation in Trump Tower. And I want to ask you about that, quite separate and
apart from whether that conversation that you overheard was about that meeting.
Can you tell us about the relationship between father and son and whether
it's your understanding that the son would take a significant action, like that
meeting, without informing his father?

And let me just preface it by referring you to some remarks that Steve
UNCLASSIFIED

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Bannon made when he opined that there was zero chance that that meeting would
go forward without Don Jr. informing his father.
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: Do you agree with Mr. Bannon's observation? And
what about the relationship would lead you to that conclusion?
MR. COHEN: Absolutely. ! can say with certainty that Mr. Bannon is 100
percent accurate in that statement.
Mr. Trump often said

room.

- and it was embarrassing to be, sometimes, in the

He has a very unique type of relationship -- he's very hard on Don Jr.,

harder than he is on lvanka or

Eric. And Mr. Trump is not shy in front

of people to

say that Don Jr. has the worst judgment of anyone he's every met.

And it's actually one of the reasons I ended up in the company. I was
working on a project -- well, I trying to close it down. lt was a license deal of a
gentleman that he somehow knew, and it was involving Trump Mortgage. And
before even working at The Trump Organization, I was assisting him in terms of
shutting down Trump Mortgage. And it was a Don Jr.type deal.

Then, of course, there were others along the way, and ultimately even with
the property that they have in Charleston, where I had to go to Mr. Trump and ask
for $3.5 million to purchase a note that was going to be defaulting on a property on
Pace Street.
Getting that money from Mr. Trump was not
angry at

Don.

easy. And he, of course, was

This was a project outside of The Trump Organization. lt was with

Deutsche Bank, who had made the

loan. And it was personally guaranteed by

Don, and it would've looked terrible if, in fact, they had to foreclose on the note.

So I use those just as examples. I can give you many -- I can give you
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But Mr. Trump and Don Jr. have a complicated relationship. Again, he

would always say Don has the worst judgment.
lnterestingly enough, though, I don't believe anybody would have taken that
meeting at The Trump Organization or with the campaign without Mr. Trump
knowing, because he micromanaged everything. There was a conversation, right
after that conversation, that was relevant to move it either backwards or fonruards.
You went into his office and you told

think? This

is what I want to

do.

him. And ljust got a response, what do you

And he'll tell you, okay, I'll agree, or I don't.

THE CHAIRMAN: So, Mr. Cohen .MR. COHEN: Sorry for the longwinded explanation.

THE CHAIRMAN: Because father, Donald Trump, had such profound
questions about the judgment of Don Jr. and made that clear to Don Jr., was it -MR. COHEN: To everyone.

THE CHAIRMAN: To everyone. Was it clear to Don Jr. that he could not
undertake serious steps in the campaign or business without his father's approval?
MR. COHEN: Yes, and he knew it.

THE CHAIRMAN: And more than that, that having undertaken a step with
the approval of his father, he would then be compelled to tell the father how it
went.
MR. COHEN: Yes.

And the reason -- again, this is my opinion

-

the reason why Jared and

Manafort were in the room at the time was because he would never let Don do that

by himself
So after
of

them.

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He would turn around and say, Dad, I got a

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I'm taking this meeting.

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1.41

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He doesn't trust

him. "Make

sure Jared," who is the secretary of

everything, "along with Manafort," who was the campaign chairman at the time,
"make sure that they're in the room with

you.

Make sure they join."

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Cohen, based on your understanding of these
players within the Trump world, is it your surmise that the presence of both
Kushner and Manafort at the meeting with the Russian delegation at Trump Tower

was on the instructions of Donald Trump, the father?
MR. COHEN: I believe so, yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: Now, you expressed your less than certitude with Mr.
Ratcliffe that the conversation you heard was about Trump Tower, but you're quite
certain that a decision of that magnitude, to take the meeting with a foreign

delegation offering dirt on a political opponent, you're quite certain that that would
not have been undertaken without Donald Trump, Sr., knowing about it.
MR. COHEN: Absolutely.

THE CHAIRMAN: You were also asked by my colleague, effectively,
whether you believe Donald Trump was an asset of the Russians, going back
decades, as some have surmised based on a variety of things.
Let me ask you a slightly different question. One of the tradecraft the

Russians use is financial entanglement to get people to do their bidding, whether
they're an asset or

not.

How important was money to Donald Trump?

MR. COHEN: lt seems like an obvious question, but very.

THE CHAIRMAN: How important was his net worth? You talked
yesterday about how he wanted to be inflated on the Forbes index. How
important to him was his wealth compared to others?
MR. COHEN: Greater.
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THE CHAIRMAN: And the Trump Tower Moscow building, as I understand
it, you testified, could have been worth hundreds of millions to The Trump

Organization. ls that right?
MR. COHEN: That's correct.

THE CHAIRMAN: And that's way in excess of a normal licensing
agreement, isn't it?
MR. COHEN: Yes, it's greater. And the economics that I negotiated with
Mr. Sater were greater than other licensing deals.

THE CHAIRMAN: And, you know, my colleague asked you about whether
there were any discussions about the propriety or conflict of interest of pursuing
this dealwhile you're running for President. Let me ask you about

that. And I

know we're going to go into this in more detail later, and I apologize for jumping

ahead. But in one of the documents, you emphasize there can't be any public
discussion of Trump Tower Moscow until this deal is complete, correct?
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: Now, once the dealwas complete, then it's going to be
become public eventually, right?
MR. COHEN: Yes, because the intent was to have Mr. Trump go to
Russia for a groundbreaking ceremony.

THE CHAIRMAN: So both you and the Russian Government and, if the
Kremlin needed to be involved, the Kremlin would know that if thd deal was

consummated it would become public, correct?
MR. COHEN: Absolutely.

THE CHAIRMAN: And would there then be an incentive for the Russian
Government not to consummate this deal before the election, if the deal would
UNCLASSIFIED

 UNCLASS I

1.43

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have to become public if consummated?
MR. COHEN: lt's plausible.

THE CHAIRMAN: Would the desire to make that money from the
Russians be a motivating
MR. COHEN:

-

Yes.

from this deal be a motivating factor for Mr. Trump?
We wanted the project to go forward.

THE CHAIRMAN: You talked about the statements with the lawyer to
characterize the meeting at Trump Tower about adoptions rather than what it was

about, sanctions. ls that right?
MR. COHEN:

Yes.

That's what I read.

THE CHAIRMAN: The Russians wanted relief from sanctions?
MR. COHEN: That's what I read. Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: At the same time Donald Trump wanted to make all this
money from Russia.
MR. COHEN: From the Trump Tower Moscow project, yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: Do you see how that might be compromising to Mr.
Trump?
MR. COHEN: lt's plausible. Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: And, lastly, you were asked about conversations with
Mr. Stone and why it would be necessary for Mr. Trump to either elicit information

from Mr. Stone about Julian Assange if it was already something that Julian
Assange was tweeting about.
Let me ask you about something that's in the pleading

-

the indictment

against Roger Stone. lt states: After the July release of stolen DNC emails by
Organization 1, a senior Trump campaign official was directed to contact Stone
about any additional releases and what other damaging information Organization
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1

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UNCLASS]E]ED

had regarding the Clinton campaign.
Who would have been in a position to direct a senior campaign official?
MR. COHEN: I would suspect Mr. Trump.

THE CHAIRMAN: And if Mr. Trump was directing a campaign
official -- senior campaign official, do you have any idea who that would be he'd be

directing to reach out to Stone?
MR. COHEN: I don't know who they're referring to in

that.

lt would have

to be also on whatever the time period was, because there was a period of time
there was Corey Lewandowski, and then after Corey it became Manafort, and then
Manafort was with Bannon, and then after Bannon, Kellyanne Conway

joined.

So

I don't know who they're referring to.

THE CHAIRMAN: And then

-

MR. COHEN: But, sir, Mr. Chairman, it's more than just the fact that he
was getting information that he would be able to use or that would help to
compromise the Hillary Clinton campaign. lt was also because it was for

mean, he'd be getting this information, this opposition research for

free.

free.

I

And

that's why he wanted it also.

THE CHAIRMAN: And the timing and the content of this. Anything that
went beyond Mr. Assange's tweet, if he was able to find out information, would be
of value to the campaign?
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Goldman.
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

O

Just following up on that meeting related to where the call with Roger

Stone was, you testified that Stone told Trump that he had spoken to Assange. ts
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745

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that right?

A
O

Yes.

Okay. When Mr. Trump got off the telephone with Roger Stone, did it

seem like he already knew that this information was coming?

A
O

No.

You were talking earlier about your suspicions, and we had a

conversation about circumstantial evidence. Let me lay out this timeline for you.

This conversation, you say, was July 18th or

A
O
A
O

19th.

ls that right?

That's correct.
The dump of the DNC emails was July 22nd.
Okay.

And then on July 27th, do you recall that Donald Trump made a public

request to Russia to find Hillary Clinton's --

A
O
A
O
A
O

The 30,000 emails on Hillary Clinton, yes.

Okay. Did he make that public request of China?
Not that I recall.

Did he make that public request of any other country?
Not that I recall.

So would this be something that might be considered a suspicious

statement by the President, in your mind?

A
O
senior

Plausible.

And let's talk just for a second about Roger Stone in terms of the

official. The pleading is around the same period of time, in July of 2016.

Does Roger -- are you aware of Roger Stone having a long-term relationship with
Paul Manafort?
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 146

UNCLASSIFIED

A
O

Yes.

And at that time of the campaign, July 2016, was Paul Manafort the

campaign chairman?

A
O
A
O
A

I

apologize. I don't know the answer to that.

Now, Roger Stone and Donald Trump, what's their relationship like?

They've known each other a long time.
Do they speak regularly?

When the political game was going on, whether it was in 2011, and

then again starting in 2015, yes, more often than in the time period in between.

O

So when there was something political that Trump was interested in,

Stone would have a more active involvement with him, correct?

A
O

Yes.

Now, have you heard Roger Stone be called in the media and others a

dirty trickster?

A
O

Yes. That's also how Mr. Trump used to refer to him.
And so, based on your knowledge of Roger Stone and your knowledge

of what Trump has said about Roger Stone, okay, do you believe that the

foreknowledge of the release of hacked emails is the type of thing that Roger
Stone would know about?

A

I don't

-- I mean, I have no knowledge as to whether he would or he

wouldn't. lt is something that Roger Stone would talk about or would be capable
of doing, in my opinion.

O

Okay.

And real quick, before we get back to some of your other testimony in
response to some of Mr. Ratcliffe's questions, Mr. Ratcliffe asked you why you did
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not plead guilty to conspiracy to make false statements. But you were the one
who actually made the false statements. ls that right?

A
O

I made the false statements.

And so, if someone else encouraged you to make the false

statements, then that person would be charged with conspiracy to commit false
statements --

A As a co-conspirator.
O - right?
A Yes.
O But you were the one who actually did it.
A That's correct.
O And then you went through some of the evidence that you presented
yesterday, or the documents that you presented yesterday, and you discussed
with Mr. Ratcliffe what the purpose was and whether it was for something illegal or
just something, you know, reputationally harmfulto his character, right? Do

A Yes.
O - you remember that? All right.

-

Now, you're not a securities lawyer, are you?

A
O
A
O

No.

So are you familiar with securities law and accounting regulations?
No.

So you wouldn't necessarily know -- and, in fact, that was not your role

at The Trump Organization, right?

A
O
UNCLASS I

That's correct.
So you would not know how Donald Trump or The Trump Organization

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T

t48

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might have marked the reimbursement checks that you got from them on their
books and records?

A

I have no

idea.

Plus, at the time that I started receiving the monthly

checks, I was no longer even located

O

there.

I had already vacated.

Right. But you're not familiar with how they would have -- what they

would have done with those accounts payable on their accounting?

A No. There are three people that - well, actually, four: approximatety
four people that would know. Potentially Mr. Trump -- oh, I'm sorry.

O Yeah. No, that's fine.
A Mr. Trump - do you want me to continue or no?
O Yes. Go ahead.
A Mr. Trump, Alan Weiselberg, Jeff McConney, and possibly Deborah
Tarasoff because she's the one who prints out all the checks, so she would know
under what code it was going.

O
A
O

Can you spell "McConney" for the record?
M-c-C-o-n-n-e-y.
Okay.

And then, finally, there was some discussion of the personal financial
statements of Donald Trump for 2011 and 2013 that you provided to the Oversight
Committee and to this committee. ls that

A
O

-

As well as 2012.

Sorry. As well as 2012.

Right.

Do you have any knowledge of everything that The Trump Organization

might have used those personalfinancial statements for?

A
UNCLASS

No.

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149

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O

So would you consider that to be evidence of fraud?

Let me take a step

back.

Do you believe those financial statements are

inaccurate?

A
O
A

Yes.

Why do you believe that?

Well, first of all, despite the letter from Jonathan Lowe of Predictive,

which talks about the value of the Trump brand, I don't believe that $3 billion
number is legitimate.

O
A

What about the other numbers that are on there?
And then -- lwas going backwards. Sorry.

- and this is something that's
also pretty well known - Mr. Trump makes determinations based upon - he
And then, as far as the assets are concerned

makes determinations on the value of the asset based upon his persona! feeling.

O

Did Mr. Trump direct you or Mr. Weiselberg to inflate the numbers for

his personal statement?

A

I'm

O

Did you overhear any conversation with Alan Weiselberg about these

sorry.

Did he ask me to inflate the numbers? Not that I recall,

no

numbers?

A Conversation between Mr. Trump and Alan Weiselberg?
O Uh-huh.
A No. The statements that I had heard from Mr. Trump directing me
and Alan Weiselberg were, he wanted to rise in the Forbes 400 list, and he
directed that Alan and I go and meet with the writer for Forbes and give her the
information, explain to her the value of the assets, which were already
UNCLASSIFIED

-

which

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150

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were inflated.

O

So the value of the assets on those personal financial statements

were, to your understanding, inflated.

A
O

Yes.

Okay.

Now, if those were submitted to an insurance firm or a bank

and they were sworn to, might that be evidence of a crime?

A
O
A
O

I actually pled guilty to

it.

lt's count number 6.

Not to these specific financial statements, but to others.
That's correct.

So if they were sworn to in order to obtain insurance or a bank, that

might be what you would call direct evidence of a crime.

A
O

Yes.

All right.

Let's -- we're going to take a break from Trump Tower Moscow for a
second.

A
O

I thought we would

take a break.

Sorry. We're going to try to push through. We've got a lot to cover.

Now, you previously said that you testified before this committee in October

of

2017.

A
O
A
O
A
O
UNCLASS

ls that right?
Yes.

And prior to that testimony, you were asked to produce documents
Yes.
-- as

well.

ls that right?

That's correct.

And I think you testified earlier that both you and The Trump

] FIED

-

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T

1s1

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Organization produced documents to the committee.

A
O

Yes.

Okay. And you were aware of the documents that The Trump

Organization produced?

A

The documents went through my attorney, so only the ones that I saw

from him.

O

Well, l'm not talking about the specific documents, but you were aware

that The Trump Organization was submitting documents related to you.

A
O
A
O

Yes.

Okay. And you also, individually, produced documents, right?
I believe so, yes.

Now, did you at any point intentionally withhold any documents that

were relevant to the request from this committee?

A
O

No.

Are you aware of whether or not The Trump Organization withheld any

documents that were relevant to the request for this committee?

A

There was one document in particular that I don't know why it was not

over. And

turned

it had to do with a conversation that ! had with an assistant to

Mr. Peskov.

O
A
O
A

And what was that document?
lt was an email.

From who to whom?
From her to

me.

I only learned of

.. it only jogged my memory and I

only had the recallwhen I saw that document during another meeting with the
Special Counsel's Office.
UNCLASS

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O
A
O
A
O

So the special counsel showed you this document.
Yes.

And was it your Trump Organization email?
Yes.

And it was a communication between the assistant to the secretary to

Vladimir Putin and you?

A Yes.
O And what did the email say?
A lt was about calling her.
O Calling her about what?
A About the Trump Tower Moscow project O Okay.
A - based upon my request to speak to Mr. Peskov, which was, of
course, pursuant to the text message that I received from Felix Sater.

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ED

[3:11 p.m.]
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

O

And we're going to get into that

later.

But how do you know that that

document was not produced by The Trump Organization?

A

Because I contacted Steve Ryan and James Commind (ph), and

I

asked them to look through the document production, and they did not have it.

O

Now, prior to your testimony in October of 2017, you also provided a

written statement to the committee. ls that right?

A
O

Yes.

And that was at least one subject or the subject of your guilty plea

before the special counsel?

A Yes.
O Who drafted this statement?
A The final statement or the O No. Who drafted - who initially drafted the statement?
A I believe it was me.
O And what did you do with it?
A I then sent it to Steve Ryan and -O What did he do with it?
A He then passed it along to a series of other attorneys as part of the
joint defense agreement.

O

Okay. So you had a joint defense agreement with other individuals.

ls that right?

A
O
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That is correct.
And who were those other individuals that you had a joint defense
ED

 154

UNCLASSIFIED

agreement with?

A

lf I miss one, I will try to let you know so you can correct the record,

but it was obviously Steve Ryan. There was --

O
A

Sorry, can you talk about the individuals, not the lawyers.
I'm

sorry. The individuals would be Mr. Trump, Jared Kushner,

lvanka Trump, Don Jr., The Trump Organization, and I believe that's it.

O
A
O

When
I'm

-

sorry.

No, I don't think Eric was part of this,

no. Sorry.

And how was that group selected to be in the joint defense

agreement?

A
O

Because Mr. Trump was supposed to pay for it.

Okay. Are you aware of there being any other joint defense

agreements that may have involved the President?

A
O

I'm not aware of any.
But, for exampte, Paul Manafort was not in this joint defense

agreement?

A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O
A
UNCLASS I

Not that I'm aware of, no.
So who was the lawyer for Jared Kushner?

Abbe Lowell.
And who was the lawyer for lvanka Trump?
I believe also.

Abbe Lowell?
I believe so, yes.

Who was Don Jr.'s lawyer?
I believe it was Alan Garten.

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O
A

155

ED

Alan Garten with

G-a-rt-e-n,

were always sort of

O
A
O
A
O
A
O

yes.

Or Alan Futerfas. lt was one of the

two.

They

-

Together?
Together, yes.
And who was The Trump Organization outside counsel?

That could have been Allen Futerfas. And then Mr. Trump's was -Who was the President's lawyer?

Jay Sekulow.
So Mr. Ryan, you said, circulated the statement to the other lawyers

within the joint defense agreement?

A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O

I believe so, yes.

Why do you believe that?
Because it's what I recall.

And then

-

And I think:
What happened next?
I received back a rendition of the draft for my review.

And were there any changes?
Yes, there were changes.
Do you recall what those changes were?

ldo

not.

Do you have in your possession the drafts of the statement prior to the

final draft?

A
UNCLASS

I

will look for them, and I will find them.

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156

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O
A
O
A
O

And willyou provide them to the committee?

Yes, if you ask.
Now, do you know who made any of those changes?

ldo

not.

Did you have any conversations with Steve Ryan about who

had -- who added any input into the statement?

A
O
A

Yes.

And what did he tellyou?
I

don't recall specifically, but I know that others had input into the final

statement. I believe one part Abbe Lowellwanted was either inserted or
removed. He wanted no comments about lvanka. And then there were other
changes as

well.

I

would really have to look through the document. ! don't have

it --

O Okay.
A - committed
O One minute.
A Sure.

to memory.

[Discussion off the record.]
MR. COHEN: For the record, ljust made mention that my counsel hasn't

stopped eating since I met

him.

I lose five pounds -- I'm actually going to be

writing a book. lt's called the Mueller
even thinking about

it.

diet.

lt's how to lose 25 pounds without

lt's a whole lot better than the South Beach

going to be a bestseller.
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

O
UNCLASS

Are you still in this joint defense agreement?

I EIED

Diet.

lt's

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UNCLASS

A No. The joint defense agreement terminated.
O When did it terminate?
A Around the time that we had concluded with Judge Kimba Wood for
the privilege document review.

O
A
O
A
O

ln the Southern District of New York?
Yes.
So after the searches of your homes and

offices. ls that right?

Correct.

And there was a privilege review before a judge in the Southern

District?

A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O

Yes.

ls that correct?

Judge Kimba Wood or Barbara Jones was also involved.
And so at the conclusion of that privilege review -The joint defense agreement came to an end.
Now, why did it come to an end?
Because McDermott Will & Emory wanted out.
They wanted out of your case, or they wanted out of the joint defense

agreement?

A
O

They wanted out of both.

And so did you ask your new attorney to reenter the joint defense

agreement?

A
O
A
UNCLASS

No.

Why not?
Because Mr. Trump didn't pay McDermott Will & Emory and left a

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pretty large outstanding invoice. So, therefore, there was no point in bringing

them in on the

JDA. ln all fairness, McDermott

Will & Emory did all the work for

everybody and then got stiffed. So I wasn't going to now do that to Petrillo and
owe even more money.

O

You referenced -- in my last minute here, you referenced the privilege

review.

A
O

Yes.

And yesterday you testified that the recording between you and

Donald Trump about the AMI stuff with David Pecker that is now public, that Rudy
Giuliani waived the privilege on that document. ls that right?

A
O

On the recording, yes.
Do you know whether he ever asserted a privilege on that document?

Was that the subject of the litigation in the Southern District of New York?

A
O
A
O
A

I'm not sure.
But you do know that he waived the privilege -Yes.

-- and, therefore, it was signed?
Yes.

MR. GOLDMAN:

Okay. I see our time is up.

THE CHAIRMAN: Why don't we take a 5-, 10-minute recess, and then
we'll resume.
MR. COHEN: . lt's to my knowledge. To my knowledge, I believe. Can

I

just correct the record for one second? I just want to clarify one quick thing. To
my knowledge, I believe.
MR. DAVIS: !t would be, to my knowledge, Giuliani waived the privilege.
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IRecess.]
DR. WENSTRUP: This committee has somewhat of a running joke with

Mr. Himes and

me.

He often

says: Aren't you glad you're not an attorney, that

you went to medical school instead of law school?

So let me ask you, what was your motivation for becoming a lawyer?
MR. COHEN: I failed out of medical school.
DR. WENSTRUP: That I get.
MR. COHEN: My father is an otolaryngologist, a diplomat in head and
neck reconstructive surgery. My mom is a surgica! nurse and an allergist. And

everyone in my family is either a doctor or a lawyer. First cousins, all lawyers and

doctors. And the doctors are married to lawyers. So I figured it's a good
profession.
DR. WENSTRUP: One or the other, right?

MR. COHEN: Yes.
DR. WENSTRUP: So, in your job, your title was special counsel, correct?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
DR. WENSTRUP: Now, was that for Mr. Trump only or was that for

anyone in the business, the family? How did that work?
MR. COHEN: lt was generally Mr. Trump and, when he wanted, on behalf
of the family.
DR. WENSTRUP: So you have to forgive me here, because I understand

sort of the term of general counsel and someone may be a tax counsel or a real

estate counset, you know, patent counsel, whatever. So what does a special
counsel

do?

I'm not real'familiar with that.

MR. COHEN: I guess it would just be handle special situations that are of
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significance to Mr. Trump.
DR. WENSTRUP: So a sort of whatever we may have you do type of

thing?
MR. COHEN: Correct.
DR. WENSTRUP: As pertains to legal matters?
MR. COHEN: To anything.
DR. WENSTRUP:

Anything. So I get a little confused with the term "fixer"

or "fixing."
MR. COHEN: Me too.
DR. WENSTRUP: Because I think of something like in my practice a

patient may call the office and say, "Hey, there's something wrong with my
insurance claim, they didn't process it right," and I could turn to staff and say,
"Would you fix that for them,"

right? ls that the type of thing we're talking about

or, you know -MR. COHEN: Yes.
DR. WENSTRUP:

- glitches that come up?

MR. COHEN: Anything that he wants me to handle.
DR. WENSTRUP: So, typically, benign type of things maybe?

MR. COHEN: Many.
DR. WENSTRUP: Did you ever advise Mr. Trump or the family, for that
matter, and say that something is ill-advised or unethical or illegal?
MR. COHEN: Not that I recall.
DR. WENSTRUP: So there was never a situation where you might have

given that advice on something. I don't know. Did you feel that wasn't in your
purview to do if you did feel that way, or did you just think everything was well
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ED

advised, ethical, and legal?
MR. MONICO: I suppose there's a question of whether this breaches the

attorney-client privilege at some point, I suppose. I mean, it's hard to imagine,
but

DR. WENSTRUP: lt's a pretty vague question, ! guess, but I'm not asking

for a specific detail.
MR. MONICO: lgotcha.
DR. WENSTRUP: And I won't go

there.

I understand that.

MR. COHEN: I'm sorry, can you repeat the question?
DR. WENSTRUP:

Yes.

I mean, was there ever a time, one that you felt

something was ill-advised or unethical and illegal and you advised as such, or did
you just

-

MR. COHEN: I was actually known for telling him I don't

agree. Whether

he would do it or not thereafter was, of course, his decision, but there were things

that I would say to

him:

No, I wouldn't do it that way.

DR. WENSTRUP: So you talked about some things being said in code,

like:

I never was told directly to do such and such, but the code was that I was

supposed to.
So, even if it was ill-advised, unethical, or illegal, did you just

-

did anyone

ever say to you, "Well, I want you to do it anyway," and then you did it?
MR. COHEN: Not that I recall.
DR. WENSTRUP: Did you ever lie to Mr. Trump?
MR. COHEN: Not that I recall.
MR. MONICO: I mean -DR. WENSTRUP: Yeah, in his employ, during that time.
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MR. COHEN:

Yes. Yes. Actually, yes, I did.

DR. WENSTRUP: And how was that received?

MR. COHEN: Oh, he never found out.
DR. WENSTRUP: But you

-

MR. COHEN: Would you like the example as an example?
DR. WENSTRUP: lf you're --

MR. COHEN: I mean, I'm willing to do

it.

He asked me to make a phone

call and let's say to a reporter. And I just didn't reach out to the reporter. And he

said, "Have you -- did you speak to the reporter?" "No, I left a voice message."
It was a

lie. But there's no point in speaking

to that reporter because the article is

already out.
DR. WENSTRUP: Maybe that was a white lie, but we won't go there.

MR. COHEN:

Okay. But

it's still a lie.

DR. WENSTRUP: And you can answer this however you want because
know you've been through this the last few days, but you would say that you lied

for him?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
DR. WENSTRUP: Were you ever forced or intimidated into continuing to

work for Mr. Trump in some way?
MR. COHEN: No.
DR. WENSTRUP: There was no kind of extortion or blackmail type of

thing.

So you could have left any time on your own?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
DR. WENSTRUP: But you stayed.
MR. COHEN: ldid.

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DR. WENSTRUP: So, when someone declares that they're running for

office, should they quit their job, do you think, and quit engaging in everything?
Like for me, when I decided to run for office and I announced and filled out my
papenrvork, I continued to

work. As a matter of fact, I operated until about 6 days

before I was sworn in.
And I ask that because there was some reference to business actions
taking place while Mr. Trump was still a candidate. So do you find that that was
wrong, that he should still be engaging in business while he's a candidate, or
should he still be free to do that?
MR. COHEN: What I think is irrelevant. lt's what the rules permit or don't

permit. I obviously thought it was okay because I was doing it.
DR. WENSTRUP: Most of us who run for office, you know, until we win,

we got to keep our day job,

right? And so that's my point to that because I felt like

there was some reference that there shouldn't be business taking place while as a

candidate. Because not everyone can afford that luxury of dropping their day job
is the point I'm trying to make.

And you're okay with international business, right? You have no problem
with international business?
MR. COHEN: No.
DR. WENSTRUP: How many countries does the Trump enterprise, for

lack of a better word, have business in, do you
MR. COHEN: I can name a

think?

Do you know offhand?

few. I mean, they're in Dubai, in Scotland,

in

lreland. They were in Panama. You have Toronto. You have Canada, to name
a few.

DR. WENSTRUP: So are all these countries considered staunch allies of
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the United States of America?
MR. COHEN: I don't

know. I know Toronto because that's where my

family is from.
DR. WENSTRUP: You made mention earlier of Romania. You started to

tell something about Romania.
MR. COHEN: Yes.
DR. WENSTRUP: What were you going to say about interactions with
Romania?
MR. COHEN: There was a potential real estate opportunity in Romania.
DR. WENSTRUP: And did that ever come to fruition?
MR. COHEN: No.
DR. WENSTRUP: How many times did the topic come

engaged was

that?

up?

How

How far did it get?

MR. COHEN: I don't understand your question, sir.
DR. WENSTRUP: Well, you know, in a business deal, it starts with a

conversation. Hey, what about Romania? We may go there. Let's start
engaging with people in Romania. You know, you're special counsel. Do you

engage in those conversations and be aware that, hey, we're looking at Romania?
And how many times?
And the reason I ask this is because you mentioned before about Russia
came up like a handful of times, right? So how many times did Romania come

up?

And how many times does a country come up in your conversations with Mr.

Trump when a business deal is being looked at?
MR. COHEN: So it's an interesting question. As it relates to me, not a lot,
because that really wasn't my function. The reason that I was involved, for
UNCLASS I

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UNCLASSIF]ED

example, in the country of Georgia was because Giorgi Rtskhiladze was a friend of

mine. And the reason Felix reported to me was because he considered himself

a

friend of mine.
And the people from Romania, the Edemeskus (ph), I met them while with
Mr.

Trump. That was the big Las Vegas meeting, the one with Agalarovs, that we

met the Edemeskus (ph) there, and they took my number. And they're in real

estate in Romania, so I was a point of contact. But most, if not virtually all, real
estate deals were divvied up between Don Jr., lvanka, and Eric.
DR. WENSTRUP: lt's hard to tell, because your title is so ambiguous and

you never know where you're going to be involved or not, correct?
MR. COHEN: Neither did

L

DR. WENSTRUP: Well, I guess what I'rn trying to figure out, it seems to
me a handful of times that you heard of a possible deal in Russia. lt doesn't

sound like a lot, because I got to imagine it takes a lot of conversation to actually
finish a

deal.

That's what I'm trying to establish

here. And do you consider

a

handful of times a lot of engagement?
MR. COHEN: I don't think it's a

lot.

Over --

DR. WENSTRUP: Say for the deals that you were engaged in.
MR. COHEN: I don't think it's a lot.
DR. WENSTRUP: Yeah, okay.
MR. COHEN: Over a period of 2007 to ..
DR. WENSTRUP:

Exactly. Okay.

MR. COHEN: But, again, that's just

me.

I

don't know what anybody else

in the organization -- the deals that I worked on were just deals that I had personal

relationships to individuals.
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FIED

DR. WENSTRUP: So, with that in mind, that's what I'm trying to get at, is
that five

- a handful, but that's five or so, is a pretty minimal amount of time of

engagement in any potential deal.
MR. COHEN: I'll agree with that.
DR. WENSTRUP: lyield back.

THE CHAIRMAN: Just for clarification -DR. WENSTRUP: lyield to

-

THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, I'm sorry.
DR. WENSTRUP: That's mY bad.

THE CHAIRMAN: The handful of times you're talking about is before the
discussions began on Moscow Trump Tower, right?
MR. COHEN:

Yes. As I said, it's up until the point

of Trump Moscow.

THE CHAIRMAN: OkaY, thank You.
MR. GOLDMAN: Just one more thing on that, if I could. You mentioned

the Agalarovs. Was there discussion with The Trump Organization and the
Agalarovs about building a Trump Tower in Moscow?
ttIR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. GOLDMAN: Were you involved in that at all?
MR. COHEN: No.

THE CHAIRMAN: We yield

back.

Sorry about that.

BY

o

Mr. cohen, thank you for being here

today. A real quick question

about Felix Sater. So, earlier, you had mentioned that Felix Sater and Donald
Trump had a bad blood type of relationship at the point in time in 2015. ls that

correct? Did I hear you correctly?
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A
O

I

don't know if it was 2015, but at some point, yes.

Got

it. And he told you:

Just be carefulwith Felix Sater.

ls that right?

A
O

He did.

Okay. So, on page 84, of the transcript from when you came to talk

to us back in October of 2017

- and I'll let you open that up. Near the bottom of

the page, Mr. Swalwell asks, "And Felix Sater, is he someone that at the
time" -- oh, 84.
Mr. Swalwell

asks: And Felix Sater, is he someone that at that time you

trusted?
You

said:

I had no reason not to trust

him.

However, that would never

change my standard operating procedure.
Can you talk for a minute about your feelings towards Mr. Sater as
compared to NIr. Trump's feelings for Mr. Sater? Was there a difference of
opinion there?

A
O

Yes.

Okay. And just based on your personal relationship with him or, I

mean, what was the divide?

A

I had no animus towards Felix and Felix had none towards

me.

And

I

did nothing within which to, you know, harm him, and he did nothing within which
to harm me.
So I had no reason not to trust him that the deal was legitimate, not to
mention, as I stated here, I have a standard operating procedure. Even if he was
mad at me, it wouldn't have made a difference. There are three things that

wanted, and I needed them in order to start to draft, you know, the definitive
UNCLASSIE]ED

I

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ED

documents.

O

Got

it.

Thank

you. And Mr. Ratcliffe

earlier went through pages 56

through 60 on the transcript in terms of the dossier allegations, and I won't relive
all that with you, but just in summary, you confirmed your testimony that you gave
us back in October that the dossier allegations against you were

false.

So

everything from you working as a secret conduit with the Russians, meeting in
Prague, cleaning up ManaforUPage's mess, any sort of key role you may have had
in an alleged Kremlin-Trump campaign relationship.
I

guess my first question regarding that is, when you first heard about these

allegations, how did you feel?

A
O
A

Angry.
I imagine
I

so.

l'd be pretty upset. And

was angry because where I found it - I know exactly where I was at

the time that I got my first phone

I

-

and his

sponsored by

team.

call. And I was in Florida with my son at!

He played for a team called
He was starting pitching

, which was

againstf

,

which is the number one baseball team in the country. And he was starting.
Now they rocked him, because he was watching me pacing back and

forth.

And

- I was so angry, and we're connected. He's my heart.
O Absolutely.
A And I ruined the whole experience for him.
O How did you first find out? Who told you about it?
A Roz Haldeman (ph) and Tom Hamburger.
O Got it. And were you contacted by anyone in the press regarding the

he was

allegations?
UNCLASS]FIED

 UNCLASS

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A
O
A
O

They are the press.
They are the press. Anyone else?

- you asked me the first time. lt was from there.
Okay. Got it. How did you respond when you were getting questions

That's the

from folks in the press about the allegations against you?

A

As I said, I've never been to Prague, and I never went to clean up

Manafort's mess, and it just

-

you know, I told them the story of when I got

-

you

know, when I got back, the first thing, you know, with Mr. Trump was, this is a

terrible story, this is a nightmare. And I had just left the office, you know, at the
time, when it first came

out.

And I was home. I had just gotten home. lt must

have been 7:30, 8 o'clock. And he said, have you ever been to Prague? And

said,

no.

I

So he goes: Michael, this is important. This is serious. We're getting

killed.
I

said:

Mr. Trump, I've never been to Prague.

So, you know, I said: Would you like to see my passport?

So he

goes: Yeah, can you bring

it over?

So I put my jacket back on, and I walked
and everybody examined

O

over. And I brought

my passport,

it. And I've never been to Prague.

So, when Mr. Trump was talking to you about this, he seemed

concerned or he seemed,like this was a surprise to him, the news of the dossier?

A
O

Yes.

Okay. And then those press contacts you mentioned, when were the

first ones that happened with
time?

A

lt was in January.

UNCLASSIFIED

you?

When were you first notified, about what

 UNCLASS

O
A
O
I

Lto

I FIED
January of2016?
Yes.

Okay. All right.

yield back.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Goldman.
MR. GOLDMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

O

We were speaking earlier about this written statement that you

submitted to the committee prior to your testimony last time, and we were talking
about the other lawyers in the JDA who reviewed

it.

And that

-

I think you

testified that your attorney, Stephen Ryan, circulated a draft of the statement and
then received comments back.

A
O

[Nonverbal response.]
Did you have -- were you present for any conversations with anyone

other than your attorney about this written statement?

A
O

Not that I recall.
Did you have any conversations with anyone about your testimony

before your testimony occurred?

A
O
A

Yes.

I'm going to get to that in a minute. So do you recall

-

lt's like a cliffhanger. Now, in my head, !'m thinking, you know, what's

that question? Sorry.

O

Do you recall in your written statement that you said that the proposal

for the Trump Tower Moscow went from September 2015 until the end of January
2016?
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A I believe so, yes.
O Do you want to look at it?
A No. ! believe so.
O All right. And then was that accurate?
A To the best of my knowledge, yes. Oh, was that accurate? The
answer to that is no.

O

Do you recall there being -- did you learn of any conversations that

your attorney or you had yourself with any of the other attorneys in the joint
defense agreement about that statement?

A
O

I'm

sorry. You lost me on that

one.

The statement -- let's just look at it.

MR. GOLDMAN: lt's exhibit 44, and we would offer it into evidence.

[Cohen Exhibit No. 5
Was marked for identification.l
MR. GOLDMAN: So, in the third paragraph is where I'm looking, at the
bottom, the last three sentences.

THE CHAIRMAN: Can you just identify what the document is?
MR. GOLDMAN:

Sorry. This is the statement of Michael D. Cohen,

Esquire, that was submitted to the committee I believe August 28th of 2017.
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

O

And then you see where

it,

says, "By the end of January 2016,1

determined that the proposalwas not feasible for a variety of business reasons
and should not be pursued further. Based on my business determinations, The
Trump Organization abandoned the proposal."
Are any of those statements accurate?
UNCLASS

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 UNCLASS

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A
O

772

ED

No.

Do you recall any conversations about those three sentences prior to

submitting the written statement?

A
O
A
O

I

don't recall.

But you do recall

,orr"rr.rions

prior to your testimony. ls that right?

Yes.

And do those conversations center around the same lie as to when the

Trump Tower Moscow deal ended, that it was January 2016?

A
O

Some of the conversations, yes.

So let's just focus then broadly on the conversations you had prior to

either submitting the written statement or your testimony. And maybe that's an
easier way of framing it if it's hard to remember which related to which.

A
O

Because I don't have timelines, so it's --

Okay. Now, you said you had conversations about either your

testimony or this written statement. Who did you have conversations with?

'

A
O
A
O
A
Q
A
O
A
O

UNCLASS I

Jay Sekulow.
How many times did you speak with Jay Sekulow?

A lot.
And remind us who Jay Sekulow is?
Attorney for President Trump.
When you say a lot, can you give an approximation?

Twenty or more.
Was your attorney on the phone for all those conversations?
No.

So you had conversations one-on-one with Jay Sekulow?

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UNCLASS

A Yes. lt was discussed with Steve Ryan, and he authorized
speak to Jay once, of course, the joint defense agreement was in

me to

place. Plus,

I

had the previous relationship with Jay.

O

Okay. How many of the conversations, the 20 conversations involved

just you and Jay Sekulow?

A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O

I

would say the bulk.

And these were all on the telephone?
Yes.
So over the course of how long did these 20 conversations occur?
I

don't have the answer to

that.

I can try

- if you'd like, I ..

The inauguration was January 2017.
Yes.

The request to you was May of 2017 from this committee, okay. Your

production of documents and the statement that you provided was August of 2017.

And your testimony was October 24th of 2017. Okay. That's some of the
timeline.
Over how many months do you think that you had these 20 conversations

with Jay Sekulow about your upcoming testimony?

A

I'd probably say that at least more than half, if not more than that,

during the month before the statement in the testimony, within that

month. I had a

lot of conversations with Jay.

O

So tell us what Jay Sekulow said to you about either the statement or

your testimony before Congress.
MR. MONICO: lf the joint defense agreement is in place, is this a potential

privilege problem or not?
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IFIED

THE CHAIRMAN: Counsel, if there's any indication that he was being
urged to testify falsely, it would be nullified by the crime/fraud exception.
MR. MONICO: Okay.
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

O

Are you comfortable proceeding, Mr. Cohen, to discuss the

conversations you had with Mr. Sekulow?

A
O

Yes.

Was Mr. Sekulow essentially acting as your lawyer for these

conversations?

A
O

No.

He was the President's lawyer, but there were one-on-one

conversations?

A
O

Yes.
And what did he tellyou about -- let's focus on this January 2016 date.

Did you have any discussions with Jay Sekulow about stating that the Trump

Tower deal ended January 2016?

A

We talked about the entire statement. I can't tell you .. it happened,

you know, 2 and a half years

ago.

I don't

want to start to expand upon -- I'd rather

do it in more of a generality.

O
A

Start general. Go ahead.
We talked about staying on message. And the message was always

was whether I was -- when I was with Mr. Trump or during these conversations, it

was always about to stay on message, which is there's no Russia, there's no
collusion, there's no business
staying
UNCLASS

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deals. And that was the message that we were

And that was the message that I was going to put into the statement,
ED

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UNCLASS]FIED

and

-

O

So, if I can interrupt, this statement deals only with the Trump Tower

Moscow.

A Correct.
O Right?
A Yes. But the reason it stops in January of 2016 is because the
documents that we had, meaning Steve Ryan, were -- there were text messages
between Felix and myself. And there's one in January where I said to

him:

l'm

done. We're finished.
And that's the message prior to the "if you don't believe me, call Peskov"

text.

That's why we used January as the date.

O
A
O
A
O
A

Did you discuss that with Jay Sekulow?

Yes.
And what did he say about using January as the date?

Good. Good.

Let's just stay on

message. Keep this thing short.

And what was the message about January 2016?
lt was the period of time, it was before the lowa

just a good

time.

lt was just

caucus. And it was

- it was before, it was a couple weeks before the

lowa caucus, and let's just keep it that

way. And, again, since

the deal didn't take

place, what would have been the harm?

O

But what is the relevance of the lowa

want you to say that

A

I

caucus? Why did Jay Sekulow

-

don't know. At the time, I don't know. That was just the date that

we had an endpoint, which was the Felix and my text. lt was before the lowa

caucus.

Let's just

UNCLASSIFIED

-

 UNCLASS

O
A
the

-

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Did Jay Sekulow know that the dealwas discussed until June of 2016?
I believe

so.

Again, as I previously also testified, that it was before

really, the beginning of the campaign, which is the lowa caucus, where

everything really kicks off.

O

Okay. Let's use that. Did Jay Sekulow know that your discussions of

Trump Tower Moscow in which you also discussed it with Donald Trump carried
past the lowa caucus into June of 2016?

A
, O
A
O

I believe so, yes.

Do you recall having conversations with him about it?

To the best of my recollection, yes.
Now, Dr. Wenstrup asked you some questions, and I believe you said

that there's nothing wrong with continuing to have business deals while you're a

candidate. ls that right?

A
O
A

He asked me that question, yes.

And do you agree with that?
I

wasn't part of the campaign. And I wanted to see this project

become a reality. Yes, I continued to work on it.

O

And you said earlier there's nothing illegal about pursuing a deal in

Moscow?

A
O

There is nothing illegal about pursuing a deal in Moscow.
So did Jay Sekulow tell you then why he wanted you to lie about

pursuing a deal in Moscow during the campaign?

A

Not that I recall,

no.

This was the message. And we were preparing

-

that this whole

over. There's no - the investigation is going

to come to an

the statement and stay on message, and there's nothing going
thing is going to be
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UNCLASSlF]ED

end in like 6 weeks. Don't worry; it's all good. The boss loves you.
Actually, he would refer to him as the client, you know, or say to
left with the client, and he loves

you.

Don't

worry.

me:

I

just

He's sorry about this, or he's

sorry about that, that you have to go through this.
And everybody looked at this document. lt got sent around. And this
became the final statement as with the other document.

O

Do you know if everybody in the JDA approved of this document

before it was submitted?

A

I

don't know who did or who didn't, but I do believe it was circulated

amongst everybody.

O

Did Stephen Ryan tell you that anyone objected to any statements in

this document?

A

Yes. Abbe Lowell, I believe. I believe if it's this document.

did.

Lowell

Abbe

He wanted a section either included or excluded that dealt with

lvanka.

O

Did that section relate -- we haven't been through it yet, but did lvanka

Trump have a relationship with a Russian official's wife?

A

I

don't know if she has a relationship or

not.

I

do know that she

received an emailfrom the wife of Dmitry Klokov.

O
A
O

And who is Dmitry Klokov?
He's an Olympic Gold Medalweightlifter.

And did Abbe Lowell relay to you any concerns about including

information -- withdrawn.
Did you have conversations with Dmitry Klokov?

A
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ldid, yes.
ED

 UNCLASS

778

I FIED

O
A

And what were those conversations about?
There's

-

I had a verbal conversation with

him.

lt was about

-

 

thought it was about the Trump Tower Moscow project. Can I sort of take you
through the

O

I actually don't

want you to because we will go through

it.

!'m just

trying to understand what -. I'm trying to get at what Abbe Lowell wanted.

A
O

I never spoke to Abbe Lowell.
I understand, but it was relayed to you that Abbe Lowell wanted

something. Was it removed from the written statement?

A
O

I believe

so.

I believe so, yes.

Let's take a step back,

though. Everybody saw this final draft. To

your knowledge, everybody in the JDA saw this final draft?

A
O

To my knowledge, yes.
And did anybody voice any objections to you submitting this to

Congress under the penalty of false statements or perjury?

A
O

Not that I'm awaie of.
Did there come a time when you had a conversation in person with

Jay Sekulow in the White House?

A
O
A

Yes.

When was that?
I

apologize. I don't recall the date. lt could be February of 2017,1

believe.

O
A
O
UNCLASS

I EI

Was it -- I'm sorry.

May.

May of 2017.

May of 2017?
ED

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A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O
A

lt was in response to your invitation to appear.
And who did you meet with in the White House?

The President.
And Jay Sekulow?

And I brought Jay Sekulow with me, yes.
Anyone else?
No, it was just the three of us.

And describe that conversation for us.
So we sat down after pleasantries. Mr. Trump asked -- President

Trump asked
He

me:

Why did you say

no?

Just cooperate.

goes: There's nothing here. There's no Russia. There's no collusion.

There's no business dealings. Why didn't you cooperate?
So I said: Because Jay told me not to.
He
I

don't

says: What are you talking

-

said: Well, they sent an invitation, and like to a bad

go. You say you're like -

bar mitzvah, you just

so then, ultimately, we got the subpoena, and now

I had to go.

O

What else did the President say to you about

-

let me take that back.

Did you have any discussions about what you were going to say to Congress?

A

Again, in the conversation with the President, when he said to me,

"There's no" -- he goes, "Michael, why don't you just cooperate? There's no
Russia, there's no collusion, there's no business, there's no deals, and this is all
going to be over" -- I know what he's saying to me.

O
A
UNCLASS

What's he saying to you?
What he's saying to me

I FIED

is:

There's no Russia. Stay on message.

 UNCLASS

180

I FIED

That's the message that we've all been talking about for the past 6-plus months.

O

You stated a lot that the President would say, "There's no Russia."

Russia is obviously a country. There is Russia. So what did you understand him

to mean when he said, "There's no Russia"?

A

First of all, you're not allowed to be funnier than

me.

Because l'll leave. I'm not under subpoena. Now take that joke
l'm

sorry.

All right?

back.

I'm sorry.

I'm just so tired.

When Mr. Trump referred to Russia, he's talking about Moscow. He's
talking about business. He's talking about Putin. He's talking about relationship
with Moscow and relationship with Vladimir Putin.

O
A

And how did you know that?
Because that was the message. That was the message that we had

all been just promoting for the last X number of months, going back to the
campaign.

O
A
He

What did Jay Sekulow say in that conversation?

Well, Mr. Trump asked

said:

him: Why did you tell him not to show

Because it didn't make

up?

sense. Let them, you know, require

him

to come.
And, again, Mr. Trump just
And then

O
A.
O
A

said: You know, just cooperate.

-

How long was the conversation?
Well, we were there for --

Sorry, I interrupted

you.

You were going to say, and then what?

Then we spent about a half hour

there. And then it was decided that

Jay was going to represent Mr. Trump and sort of join that team because, at the
UNCLASS

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ED

 181

UNCLASSIFIED

time, there were a lot of invitations to a lot of people to appear to give testimony.
So Jay said, "Don't worry, I'll help you find a lawyer," at which point Mr. Trump

said, "And don't worry, because, you know, we're going to take care of it," meaning
the Trump Org.

O
A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O
A

Where was this meeting in the White House?
ln the Oval Office.
Have you

- had you ever been to the Oval Office before this meeting?

Yes.

How many times?

This I believe was either the second or third time.
And have you ever been to the Oval Office since that meeting?
From what time to what time?
May 2017 to the present.
No, not that I .. oh, I was? Was that

- oh, July. Yes, July 2017. lt

was an unofficial visit.

O
A

What does that mean?
My daughter was working for Omarosa and Melania as a summer

intern. And ljust went to go pick her up and to have lunch with my daughter
the First Lady upstairs in the private residence.

O
A
O
A
O
A

Did you see the President during that visit?

tdid.
Did you speak to him?

tdid.
For how long?
Fifteen minutes.

UNCLASSIEIED

and

 UNCLASS

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I FIED

O
A

Did you discuss your upcoming testimony at all?
Not that I

recall. lt was a lot of people trying to push me out because

I

was taking him off schedule.

O

Let me just go back to I think the lie about January

2016. Did you

have any conversations with Alan Garten about either this statement or your
testimony where you also testified that the deal ended in January 2016?

A
O
A
O
A
O

ldon't recall.
How about Alan Futerfas?
I

don't believe so.

And Abbe Lowell?
I

don't believe so.

Do you believe that all of them knew that the Trump Tower

negotiations went to June of 2016?

A
O

I believe they did.

Mr. Cohen, I'd like before Wednesday

-

I know you're exhausted right

now, but if you could take a little bit of time and try to think back to the

circumstances around the preparation of this statement, around the conversations
you had with Jay Sekulow, whether there were other conversations, and

in

addition, please try to look for the draft statements that would have shown the prior
iterations of this written statement.

A
I can

I'll do that tomorrow. And tell me who to send the documents. What

do is fonrvard to you -MR. MONICO: Send them to me.
MR. COHEN: Got

it.

I can fonruard to you any emails -- well, I'm going to

fonruard to my counsel any emails from myself with Steve
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Ryan. And lwill even

 UNCLASS

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ask Mr. Ryan if he can check his system to see how it was circulated.
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

O

That May

-

did you have any conversations with the President other

than that May 2017 meeting in the Oval Office about your testimony?

A
O
A
O
A
O
A

I spoke

with the President on several occasions on the phone.

And what
I don't

- how many times do you think you spoke to him?

-- I don't recall.

You said severaltimes, though?
Yes.

And what did he say to you about your upcoming testimony?
I

don't recall specifically, but it's all .. the message that he would

constantly relay had to do with it's all -- it's not -- this investigation is not going
anywhere, just -- there's no Russia. I mean, I don't know how many times he said

to

me:

There's just no Russia. This whole thing is a giant witch

hunt. lt's a

witch hunt.
And, again, I knew exactly what he meant, but he doesn't have to -- for me,
he didn't have to say it more than

once. I got it the first time, you know, what we

were all in agreement on.

O
A
O

Would this be a good example of what you called code?
Yes.
Did you have any discussions with anyone else about your -- other

than your own attorneys, about testifying falsely to the Congress before it
occurred?

A
O
UNCLASS

No, not that I recall.
Did you speak to anybody at The Trump Organization?

] FIED

 184

UNCLASSIFIED

A
O
A
O
A

No, not that I recall, about the dates specifically. No, not that I recall.
Did you speak to anybody else in the Trump administration?
Not that I recall.

And did you speak to anybody else who was on the campaign?
I may have spoken to Hope

every now and

Hicks. I don't recall. I spoke to Hope

then. And don't forget also they had the statement. They knew

exactly what was going to be said.

O

Now, let's just take a second for

- after your testimony,

did you speak

with the President about your testimony?

A
O

I

don't believe so.

Did you receive

- did you receive any messages

about what the

President thought about your testimony?

A
O
A
O
A

Yes.

From whom?
I received a phone call from Jay Sekulow.

What did he say to you?

"l was just with the client," and he goes, "He heard you did a great

job," and he said to me, "He loves you, don't worry, everything's going to be great,"
something to that extent.

O

Did you tell anyone outside of the group included in the JDA that you

were not truthful to Congress?

A
O

Outside of the

JDA?

Not that I recall.

Did you participate in encouraging anyone else to be not truthful when

testifying either before Congress or the Special Counsel's Office?

A No. lt's interesting,
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because despite the fact that Steve Ryan was

 UNCLASS

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I FIED

really a point of .- a point person in the JDA, they were all having conversations as

well amongst themselves, which I always found to be interesting. That we were
really not included in a lot of the stuff as it related to the JDA.

O
A
O
A
O

But did Steve Ryan relay back to you what others were saying?
Yes, when it came to especially the documents.
But

- all right. So that's what you're going to try to think about -

Yes.
-- over the next few days.

Now, during your prior testimony, you testified that you had discussions with
people associated with the White House or the President about pardons. Do you
recall that?

A
O

Yes.
Do you recall having conversations about pardons prior to your

testimony?

A

Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: Then what I would suggest, because we have 5 more
minutes, I think the members probably have a couple more questions before we
go to the break, and it sounds like you're getting into a new area.
MR. GOLDMAN: Yes, perfect.

THE CHAIRMAN: Let me just ask a couple quick questions and pass it on
to my colleagues.
Mr. Goldman asked you about a missing email that the special counsel
showed you.
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: And that was an email that was evidence that the
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 UNCLASS

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ED

Trump Tower negotiations did not end in January, correct?
MR. COHEN: That is correct, sir.

THE CHAIRMAN: lt was an email in the month of April or May. Anyway,
it was it was post January.

MR. COHEN: Yes, definitely post January.
[Discussion off the record.]

THE CHAIRMAN: The email I'm referring to

- and I guess I may have had

my dates wrong -- was an email about setting up a meeting with or discussion with

Peskov. That's the email I'm referring

to.

Do you recall that?

MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Goldman asked you about that?
MR. COHEN: I don't recall him asking me about it.

THE CHAIRMAN: This was an email that was missing from the
production.
MR. COHEN: No,
I may have conflated the

sir.

two.

No,

sir.

That's -- yes, my apologies then, because

The email that's missing was an email from an

executive assistant of Dmitry Peskov, and I believe her name was Elena
Poliyakova

(ph). And that was a conversation that I had

had post the January

date because that's where Felix Sater had told me to reach out to Peskov.
THE CHAIRMAN: That's what lwas thinking of.
MR. COHEN: Oh, okay.

THE CHAIRMAN: My staff may have been thinking I was thinking of a
different email. But that was a post-January email, correct?
MR. COHEN: Yes, sir.

THE CHAIRMAN: And that emailwould have indicated that the testimony
UNCLASSTFIED

 1.87

UNCLASS]F]ED

that you were going to give would be false, because that email was well after
January?
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: And it involved you seeking the Kremlin's help in the
deal?
MR. COHEN: lt was an email that asked for someone to reach out to me

because I was curious about the status of the project as far as the Kremlin knew
about it, yes.
THE CHAIRMAN: What I wanted to ask you is, what can you tell us about
that missing from the document production? Who was involved in the document

production? Was

it done by that joint defense group, or was it done --

MR. COHEN: lt was done by The Trump Organization.

THE CHAIRMAN: The Trump Organization. And the lawyer for The
Trump Organization was?
MR. COHEN: Alan Futerfas, along with Alan Garten.

THE CHAIRMAN: So those two Alans would have been responsible for
the document production?
MR. COHEN:

Yes.

So the way that it worked is there was a series of

terms that I believe this committee provided, and this just didn't make it

in.

We

don't know why, but it just never made it in.
THE CHAIRMAN: Well, that is very curious. Did you ever have a
conversation with either of these attorneys or others about why that document was

not included in the production?
MR. COHEN: Sadly, they don't speak to me.

THE CHAIRMAN: And, to your knowledge, were there other documents
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 188

UNCLASS I EIED

evidencing that the transaction went beyond January that were also not produced?
MR. COHEN: lt's possible. I don't have an answer to that.

THE CHAIRMAN: And who would have produced the documents within
Trump Organization for those two lawyers?
MR. COHEN: I mean, there was an lT department that's run by a

gentleman named Jae

Cho. So I would suspect it was - it would be them.

THE CHAIRMAN: And would those people

-

the lT people, I assume they

would not be in a position to determine ultimately whether documents that were
part of the word search would be turned

over.

That would be for the two Alans.

MR. COHEN: Correct. He would do a bulk drop into a file, and they

would go through them for either privilege or improper word term.
And by the way, Jae is spelled J-a-e.
THE CHAIRMAN: And I'm going to go to my colleagues. Last question

I

have for you is, when you were informed that the client thought you did a good job,
how would the client know what your testimony was before the committee?
MR. COHEN: I don't know the answer to

that.

I was

just happy to hear

that he thought I did a good job.
THE CHAIRMAN: Did you ever learn that either someone from the
committee or others gave feedback back to Mr. Trump about your testimony?
MR. COHEN: That's a good question. I never actually even thought to

ask

it.

ljust did not.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Swalwell and Ms. Demings and Mr. Maloney?
MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Cohen, you said a couple times that you believe

that Mr. Sekulow knew that the Trump Tower Moscow extended beyond January
2016 and that others did
UNCLASS

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too.

What makes you say that you believe that they

 UNCLASS

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ED

were aware of that?
MR. COHEN: Well, because they read the document, and my belief is that

they spoke to their ctients and discussed the document with them.
MR. SWALWELL: And you're saying the document they would have read

would have clearly shown that it went beyond January 2016.
MR. COHEN: Yes, sir.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Swalwell, we're going to come right back to -- we're
out of

time.

I

didn't know if you

-

[Discussion off the record.]
MR. SWALWELL: Thank

you.

Going back to the earlier block on the

Trump Tower meeting in June 2016, did the conference rooms at Trump Tower
have like a speakerphone conference phone capability?
MR. COHEN:

Yes. All the telephones. They're made from Avaya.

MR. SWALWELL: Was it ever the case that Mr. Trump would not be at a

meeting physically but that he could listen to what was going on at a meeting?
MR. COHEN: Oh, that's definitely possible, sure.
MR. SWALWELL: Has that happened before that you've seen it happen?
MR. COHEN: Where he was put on a conference call?
MR. SWALWELL: Yes.
MR. COHEN: Yes, he's done conference calls.
MR. SWALWELL: And just, finally, when you said speaking in code, 'lno
Russia, no collusion, witch hunt," can you just give us other examples

where -- because one interpretation could be that those are the words of an
innocent man saying "no Russia, no collusion, witch hunt." You interpreted it as
stay on message. Can you give us other examples where he was telling you
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ED

 UNCLASS

I FIED

something in that vein and you clearly knew and he clearly knew that it was
something opposite?

UNCLASSIFIED

190

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191

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14:21 p.m.l

MR. COHEN: Can ljust tackle your first part of it, as far as Russia?
MR. SWALWELL: Or if he knew -- if he had said

-

MR. COHEN: The reason why I would say that, just instead of talking

about, like, which hamburger to order, it would be more

- right after I - right after

he would make a statement or as he was going to a rally to make the statement

and I would, as an example, be walking with him towards the elevator or down to
the car, he would just say to me, he goes, what's happening with Russia?
So he knew that my conversations with Felix regarding the property were

continuing. He also knew that we were not advancing, which, you know,
frustrated him a little bit, frustrated me.
MR. SWALWELL: And did those conversations extend into when it had

become publicly reported that Russia was interfering in the elections?
MR. COHEN: lt went up through about to June.
MR. SWALWELL: And June, just for the record, is when the first public
reports came out.
Did he ever express to you a concern that you had a deal with Russia that

was at least, you know, in the works and it was being reported that Russia was
interfering in our elections?
MR. COHEN: No.
MR. SWALWELL:

Okay. Thank you.

MR. COHEN: Not that I recall.
MR. SWALWELL: lyield back.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Demings.
MRS. DEMINGS: Thank you so much, Mr. Cohen.
UNCLASS

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 UNCLASS

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792

ED

Very, very quickly, kind of back to the conversations that you had regarding

the Russia deal extending toward the Trump Tower deal extending past January,
did you ever have anyone other than Mr. Trump or Mr. Sekulow tell you to stay on
message, speak in code, and suggest that you were deceptive about how long

that deal actually went fonruard? Anyone else?
MR. COHEN: Not that I recall, no, ma'am.
MRS. DEMINGS: Okay.

And last question. Regarding your conversation

- or the conversation

that

you overheard between Mr. Stone and Mr. Trump regarding the dumping of the
emails, did you ever, in that conversation, hear Mr. Trump say to Mr. Stone that
any hacking, dumping of emails, stealing of emails, coordinating with Russia would
be inappropriate and potentially illegal?
MR. COHEN: No, ma'am. The word "Russia" between the two never

came up during that conversation.
MRS. DEMINGS: But you never heard Mr. Trump say that any behavior of

that nature may be unethical, inappropriate, or illegal?
MR. COHEN: No, ma'am. No.
MRS. DEMINGS:

Okay. Thank you.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Maloney.
MR. MALONEY: Mr. Cohen, ljust want to be really clear about something
you testified to just a couple minutes

ago.

Describing that Oval Office meeting

you had with Jay Sekulow and the President, you said the President said to you,
just cooperate. And are you telling this committee that you understood him to be
telling you indirectly to lie?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
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193

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MR. MALONEY: And when Mr. Sekulow called you after your testimony
and said, you did great, I was just

- excuse me. I think you said, I was just with a

client, you did great, he loves you, don't worry, everything is going to be great.
Why would he say that to you?
MR. COHEN: To keep me within the joint defense agreement.
MR. MALONEY: Was it your understanding that Mr. Sekulow knew you
had lied and was trying to put your mind at ease?
MR. COHEN: Again, possibly. I mean, that's certainly plausible.

The thought was that, since the project never went anywhere, just minimize
the relationship. There was so much media attention to Russia and collusion and
involvement and relationships, that the goalwas just minimize

it.

That's why it

was three very short meetings or conversations that I had with Mr. Trump.
MR. MALONEY: But if I may

-

MR. COHEN: Yes, sir.
MR. MALONEY:

- Mr. Cohen, you knew you had lied at that point when

you were speaking to Mr. Sekulow.
MR. COHEN:

Yes. And Mr. Sekulow

knew that

-

MR. MALONEY: And did it make you feel better -MR. COHEN: I'm sorry?
MR. MALONEY: Did it make you feel better about having lied to Congress,

what he was saying to you?
MR. COHEN: No, it didn't make me feel better at

all.

lt was

- I was just

staying on message. And it was a mistake.
MR. MALONEY: But do you feel he was encouraging you?
MR. COHEN:
UNCLASS

] FIED

Yes. Yes. lt was all about

-- again, it was all about the

 I FI

UNCLASS

794

ED

same message that he had been giving not just to me privately but to the world:
There's no Russia. I don't know how many times that he must have said the

samething. And he said itto me a handful of times privately, and he certainly
said it a significant number of times publicly. And I was just trying to stay on

message. Because I never expected this whole thing to become what it's
become.
That's why, when he would say .. when Mr. Sekulow would say to me, you
know, don't worry, this is all coming to an end, you know, okay,

great. When?

Oh, about 6 weeks. Six weeks would come, and I'd say, what's happening now?
Ah, it's going to be about another 2 months. You know, I'm like, okay. And then
the

raid. And

it was just

-

you know, it just hasn't stopped.

THE CHAIRMAN: I yield back to you.

I:

Do you have any member questions?

THE CHAIRMAN: Are you close to finishing

up?

Because then .- why

don't you go ahead, and then we'll go to Mr. Welch. And then Mr. Goldman will
finish the rest.
BY

O

Perfect. All right.

Sorry about

that.

Earlier, I had said, regarding your first interactions with

the press on the dossier, I had said January of

2016. I meant 2017. Butyou

agreed with me.

So I just want to make sure -- I meant 2017 , but I just want to clarify your
first interactions with the press regarding the dossier -.

A
O
UNCLASS

I'm

sorry. Yes, it was 2017.

Okay. Perfect. I was making sure that was clear.

I FIED

 UNCLASS

195

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Also, related to the ltlay 2017 meeting with the President, you know,

I

understand that there was this perceived code based on your years of experience

with him and that, even though he said cooperate, you thought he meant to lie.
But given the fact that the President has continually said there is no Russia, there
is nothing, would a possible explanation for that have been there is no Russia

story here, just cooperate? ls that a possibility? Would he have said

"cooperate"? Why even say "cooperate"?

A

Because it was a negative story that came out in the press about me

turning down this committee voluntarily. And, again, in order to stay on message,
the only way to stay on message is just cooperate, go in and tell them what you
know, and what you know is stay on message.
So, yes, your explanation is plausible, but there is another side that's
plausible as well.

O
A
O

Sure.

Stay on message, cooperate, and don't create suspicion.

Sure. And the reason I ask is because, I mean, not to be the funniest

one in the room, but, I mean, my wife and I have a code too, and I misread that
code sometimes --

A
O

Yes.

-- and I get in trouble.

So that's the reason why I'm asking this, is because, you know, the

President has been very vocal, both, you know, in public, as he said, but also, as
we've heard, in private, about there being no Russia story here. And I'm just
thinking maybe, perhaps, you had this code, but because he said cooperate,
there's nothing to be afraid of, cooperate
UNCLASS

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* not that he said "nothing to be afraid

 UNCLASS

196

I FIED

of," but you see what l'm saying -- cooperate, you know, there is no Russia, go
forward, that is certainly a plausible explanation, no?

A

lt's plausible.

You know, just to give you an example when you asked about code. So
I'm sitting with a friend of mine in a

car.

We were heading to Teterboro (ph)

Airport. And I get a phone callfrom Mr. Trump - President Trump. And the First
Lady is on the phone at the same

time.

And that was right after the

announcement about the $130,000 payment.
Now, obviously, he knows that I paid

it. We'd had months'worth

of

conversation about it, not to mention he's already started to pay me back. And he
says to me, Michael, he goes, did you really pay $130,000 to Stormy Daniels?

And I said, yes.
And he, of course, had the First Lady on the phone. And I was like, yes.
So he goes, well, why'd you do

that?

I said, well, because sometimes, you know,

just because something's not true doesn't mean that it can't hurt

wow.

He goes, Melania, do you believe

that?

you.

He goes,

He took $130,000 out of his

pocket.

And he goes, why didn't you tell me about

it?

I said, well, I figured I would

tell you, but I expected you were going to lose the election. You know, then
would have told

you.

I

But, unfortunately, you won, and, you know, I guess I'lljust

call it a cost of doing business. He's like, man, you're the greatest. He goes,

I

can't believe that.
I don't believe Melania believed it for a half a second, but that was the code,

He didn't have to tell me in advance to lie to the First
he was saying.
UNCLASS

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Lady. I knew exactly what

 UNCLASS I

1,97

FIED

O

Was there an inside joke about the code with people? Did you ever

talk to anyone about, like, the code? You know, "You know what Trump's all
about, right?" You know, talking to your buddies, talking to people who interact
with Mr. Trump about similar instances of the code?

A

I

don't know if there was a running

joke.

It's just, you know, you

knew -- well, most of us knew, who had, you know, relationships with him, most of
us knew what he was thinking or what he was intending to do.

O

Got

it.

Okay. Thank

you.

That's allwe have.
THE CHAIRMAN: I'm going to go to Mr. Welch and then to Mr. Goldman.
Just a quick followup question. The President has made, continues to

make, repeated public statements that he has had no business dealings with

Russia. You knew that to be flatly untrue, correct?
MR. COHEN: Yes, sir.

THE CHAIRMAN: So the code, in case of the business dealings with
Russia, was to repeat the falsehood he was saying publicly, was it not?
MR. COHEN: lt was to repeat the message, yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: And the message was, we have no business dealings
with Russia, and if we ever did, it ended in January.
MR. COHEN: Correct.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Welch.
MR. WELCH: Well, just following up on that, by the time you did the

statement, it was clear there were some business dealings with Russia.
MR. COHEN: Oh,
MR. WELCH:
UNCLASS

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yes.

Yes, sir.

Right. So this statement, if you had put in June instead of

 UNCLASS

198

I F]ED

January, you would have been okay.
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. WELCH: And it would not

-

MR. COHEN: Well, actually, no, sir, because I think it minimizes also the
number of communications that I had with the President. I believe

so.

But if not,

that's the other statement. My apologies.
MR.

WELCH: Okay. And, I mean, the message wasn't say January, not

June. The message

was to minimize the contacts with Russia. That had sort of

fallen apart because enough information had come out that there, in fact, had
been some discussions about a Trump Tower in Russia, correct?
MR. COHEN: That's correct.
MR. WELCH: All
process of how this was

right.

So who

-

I

just want to go through a little bit the

written. You didn't sit down and write this.

MR. COHEN: I don't recall that I wrote this statement, first that I drafted it.

But I definitely edited it and put my 2 cents into

it.

Or I may have drafted it and

everybody else started editing it.
MR. WELCH: Well, who actually presented the final product for you to
sign?
MR. COHEN: My attorney.
MR.

WELCH: And that's Mr. Sekulow?

MR. COHEN: No, that was Steve Ryan.
MR. WELCH: All right, Steve

Ryan. And did Mr. Ryan know that June

was the right month, not January?
MR. COHEN: I don't recall discussing that with him.
MR. WELCH: Did Mr. Sekulow know that it was June that was the right
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 199

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UNCLASS

month, not January?
MR. COHEN: I believe if he took it to his client, which he stated to me that
he did, that he spoke to the client, that he would know that it would be false.
MR.

WELCH: Well, why didn't you put in February or March?

MR. COHEN: Because it corresponded to the text message where I'm

telling Felix that we're done, I've had enough.
MR.

WELCH: So that was the link. And who came up with that

connection as the -MR. COHEN: That was based on -MR. WELCH:

- justification?

MR. COHEN: I'm
MR. WELCH: No,

sorry. Say it again?

no.

Who came up with that link as a justification to use

January, presumably because it would have some credibility tying back to that
text?
MR. COHEN: lt was based upon the information that was provided to

Steve Ryan from The Trump Organization as far as the documents.
MR.

WELCH: So just so I understand this, there was communication

between Ryan, your attorney, and The Trump Organization about what was going
to be the content of this statement?
MR. COHEN: I don't know if there was communication about what was
going to be written as much as the documents that were produced in order to
produce this document.
MR.

WELCH: Well, I'm still a little confused here. There was a decision

made by somebody to put down January, correct?
MR. COHEN: Correct.
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200

] FIED

MR. WELCH: And are you saying that was your decision to put down
January?
MR. COHEN: No.
MR. WELCH: You went along for the ride.
MR. COHEN: That's correct.
MR. WELCH: All

right. And to the best of your knowledge, who made the

decision to put in January?
MR. COHEN: lt was

-

I had conversations with Jay Sekulow regarding

just ending it in January.
MR.

WELCH: Elaborate on that a little bit.

MR. COHEN: Because it was -- again, it was about a week or so before

the lowa caucus. And based upon the information that we had, it was just a good
end date because it corresponds to documents that were being produced or that
we were aware of.
MR. WELCH: Thank you.

THE CHAIRMAN: Did I understand you to say that Mr. Trump reviewed
your testimony and approved it through Mr. Sekulow before it was submitted?
MR. COHEN: That was my understanding, that he had also seen the
statement.

THE CHAIRMAN: And on what basis is that your understanding?
MR. COHEN: Mr. Sekulow expressed that to me.

THE CHAIRMAN: So Mr. Sekulow told you that the President had read
your written testimony, false written testimony, before you provided it to Congress?
MR. COHEN: Yes, that he

- Mr. Sekulow said that he spoke to the client

and that, you know, the client likes it and that it's good.
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ED

THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
Mr. Quigley for one question. Then we've got to get to Mr. Goldman.
MR. QUIGLEY: ln everything you've said this week, including what we're

talking about now, is there anybody else, when you think about it, that could help
substantiate these matters that we haven't talked to or that the President would
more than likely have shared some of this information

with? His politicalworld,

his government world, and his business world.
MR. COHEN: Can you be a little more specific? I also don't know who

you spoke to or who

-

THE CHAIRMAN: May I make a suggestion, Mr. Quigley?
MR. QUIGLEY: Sure.

THE CHAIRMAN: Because we'd love you to think about that question
between now and March 6th and maybe confer with your counsel.
MR. COHEN: Sure.

THE CHAIRMAN: But if you can go through and, you know, look for those
prior iterations of your written testimony and any other ideas you have about how
your statements may be corroborated.
MR. COHEN: Uh-huh.
MR. QUIGLEY: Who else might corroborate the allegations you've made

this week?
MR. COHEN: Well, the conversations, unfortunately, between Jay

Sekulow and I were just the two of us.
I

am aware, because l've seen it, I believe the Special Counsel's Office had

a telephone log that shows Michael, Jay, Jay, Michael, Michael, Michael, Jay, Jay,

and it just goes on and
UNCLASS

I FIED

on.

And it was just, like, long pages. And it's prior

-

 

 UNCLASS

202

I FIED

believe around the time of

this.

So if -

MR. QUIGLEY: We'llfollow up.
Go ahead.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Goldman.
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

O
A
O
A
O

Was that your cell phone?
Yes.

And his cell phone or his office line?
I

don't know, but I would say it was probably his cell phone.

Okay.

When I ended my last questioning

:

and we're almost done here, So --

A Okay.
O - keep with us -- we were just getting in to discuss any conversations
you had with anyone related to the White House or the administration about

pardons. Who did you speak to about pardons?

A
O
A
O
A

Jay Sekulow.
How many times did you speak to Jay Sekulow about pardons?
Quite a few.
Did you speak to anybody else about pardons?
Yes.

o

What I'm saying is, did you speak to

anybody else associated with the President, the White House, or the

administration about pardons?
UNCLASS

] FIED

 203

UNCLASSIFIED

A No. I believe it was specifically
O Okay. And -

Jay Sekulow.

MR. MONICO: Hold on a second.
[Discussion off the record.]
MR. COHEN: So indirectly? Directly or indirectly?
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

O
A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O
A

Direct conversations.
Direct, it would be, I believe, Jay Sekutow.

And how many conversations did you have?
Quite a few.
ln what time period?

Around the time of this investigation and post-.
Before you testified?

Yes, before and after.
Before and after.
Yes.
Okay.

The concept of pre-pardon had come up before, and the problem with

that, which we ultimately --

O
A
O

Well, hold

on.

Hold on.

Sorry.

What is

- you had a conversation

with Jay Sekulow about something

called a pre-pardon?

A
O
UNCLASS

Yes.

How many conversations did you have with him about pre-pardoning?

I FIED

 204

UNCLASSIFIED

A
O
A

One or two.
And what did he say to you?

The problem with a pre-pardon is that you have to answer every

question because technically you have immunity, so you can't assert any Fifth
Amendment privilege.

O

Let's back up for a second, because that presupposes that you've

already discussed the idea of you getting a pardon. Did Jay Sekulow tell you that

the President was considering giving you a pardon?

A
least

-

That's not the way that he stated it, but we had a conversation, one at

I believe it may have been two

- and I am not 100 percent certain of the

exact date that that occurred, but the concept of a pre-pardon was discussed, yes.

O

Okay. So if you said that's not exactly how he said it, what do you

remember him saying about the idea of you getting a pardon?

A

Well, it wasn't just

me.

lt was globally, in order to, I guess, shut down,

you know, this investigation. And I had said to him, you know, what .. well, you
know, there's always the possibility of a pre-pardon. And

O

-

Let's take your time, because it's important for us to understand not

just the gist of the conversation but who said what exactly. All right?
So you mentioned something called a global pardon. Did he use that
term?

A
O
A

No.

Okay. What do you mean by a global pardon?
Okay. That in order to shut this whole thing down, that this is how

they were potentially going to do it, and everybody would just get a pardon. And
said, well, it wouldn't be a pardon, it would be a pre-pardon, because nobody's
UNCLASS

I EIED

 UNCLASS I

205

FIED

been charged yet.

So it ultimately just became, that's not really something that could be
accomplished, because then they'd have the right, again, to ask you questions,
everyone on the team.

O
A

So when you say everyone, who do you mean?
I guess

whoever it is that you started to request to come in, testify,

subpoenaed. I don't know who --

O So he did not define anyone?
A No. I'm sorry. There was no definition.
O Did he mention anybody else's name who may have been considered
for a pardon?

A
O

Not that I recall.

Okay. The message

- was the message

that you received that the

President was considering to give you and others a pardon? ls that what your

testimony is?

A No. My testimony is that topic came up, and I had conversations

with

Jay Sekulow regarding the possibility of pardons.

O

Okay. So it wasn't that the President

-

did Jay Sekulow say anything

about the President being involved in these ideas?

A

Well, in our conversations, it was always about the client, you know,

where he would say to me that the client is, you know, sorry that you're going
through this, I just got off the phone with him, or I just left him, and, you know, he
loves you and, you know, can't believe this is happening. And then topics of

conversation that included pardons also came up.

O

And how did they come up?

UNCLASS]FIED

 UNCLASS

I FI

A
O
A

206

ED

ln the conversation.

Okay. And what did he say to you?
Again, you're asking me to sort of respond back

MR. MONICO: We can do

this.

We can try

-

-

we'll go over these in the

next couple days.
MR. GOLDMAN: Okay.
MR. COHEN: And I may actually have a text or something that's out there
I

will search for them.
MR. GOLDMAN:

O

What we would appreciate you also looking for is any communications

that you had, either by email or text, with t\Ir. Sekulow.

A
O

Sure.

You also indicated there were indirect messages relayed to you about

pardons?

A
O

And what do you mean by that?

A

-- it's an individualwho has a relationship to somebody inside the

Yes.

White House that is closely connected to the President that not only spoke to me
about pardons in person, on the telephone, and also via
might even be a text or an

O
UNCLASS

-

  believe that there

email. I'd have to check on that one.

So there is some person who we will not name here --

I F]ED

Yeah, an email

 UNCLASS

207

I FIED

A
O
A
O

Correct.

-. to protect the investigation

-

Yes, sir.
-- who was relaying messages from the White House to you about the

possibility of a pardon?

A

Yes. And that's

through this individualwho has a relationship to the

President.

O
A
O
A
O

And was this before or after the search warrants were executed?
I believe after.

Okay. So that would've been after April 9, 2018?
Yes.

Okay. After those search warrants, did you ever have any

conversations with Jay Sekulow about a possible pardon?

A
O
A
O

I

don't believe so.

Okay. So your conversations with Jay Sekulow predated the search.
Yes, I believe so.
Let's just finish up on the Jay Sekulow

stuff. You said you think

you

had conversations with him about pardons both before and after your testimony
here, October 24,2017?

A
O
A
O
A
O
UNCLASS

Yes.

ls that right?
Yes.

Okay. Were they all similarly about pre-pardons?
Pre-pardons and/or pardon.
Because did he indicate to you that there was a consideration after

] EIED

 UNCLASS

208

I FIED

your testimony here of pardoning anybody else?

A
O

I

don't recall if that was the ..

Did he ever make

- did he ever say anything to you about the

possibility of pardoning Michael Flynn?

A No. We didn't discuss Michael Flynn, not that I recall.
O Did he ever say anything to you about the possibility of pardoning

Paul

Manafort?

A
O
A
O

Not that I

recall. lt was more --

How about Rick Gates?

Again, it was more just as a global sort of conversation.
And when he was talking about everybody, did you understand him to

mean people that had already been charged by the special counsel?

A
O
A
O
A
O

Yes.

So that would not have been a pre-pardon, correct?
That would not have been a pre-pardon.

And did he draw that distinction to you?
We didn't get that deep into the woods.
Okay.

Let's go back to this unnamed intermediary.

A
O
A
O
A
O
UNCLASS

Yes.

ls this person's connection in the White House also Jay Sekulow?
No.

ls it someone in the White House Counsel's Office?
I

don't believe so, no.

But it's someone affiliated with the President.

I FIED

 UNCLASS

I F]

A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O
A
O

209

ED

Yes.
Someone who works in the administration?
Do you mean affiliated or close to?

Well, you tell me.
Close to.
Close to the President.
Yes.
Employed by the White House?

What, are we playing that game where you put it on your forehead?
I'm grasping for straws here, Mr.

Cohen.

I'm just trying to figure out

- not the intermediary. You don't have to talk about the intermediary.
A Well, if you ask me any more questions, it's either the person or King

who the

Kong, right?

O

Well, there are a lot of other options. You said it's someone close to

the President.

A
O
A

Yes.

ls it a friend of the President?
I'd prefer not to answer that question, please.

MR. MONICO: We can check and get back to you on that.

THE CHAIRMAN: Can I -- just, if I could, Mr. Goldman.
The second person that we're talking about, but not by name, that has a
contact within the White House, the contact within the White House is close

enough to the President to be able to make the case for a pardon?
MR. COHEN: Yes, sir.

THE CHAIRMAN: And this intermediary, did they reach out to you or did
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS

210

I FIED

you reach out to them about the subject of the pardons?
MR. COHEN: Well, they reached out to

me.

And the topic of

conversation was part of that initial and subsequent conversations.

THE CHAIRMAN: And did they reach out to you, was it your impression,
for the purpose of discussing a pardon with you?
MR. COHEN: Amongst other things, yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: And did this intermediary tell you whether they had
been tasked to do that by this associate of the President?
MR. COHEN:

No.

But what they did is they included that individual's

name who's close to the President, including sending me a screenshot of my
name from the telephone log and then the individual that's close to the President's
name, and then another conversation with that individual and then my name again,
to demonstrate that he actually was speaking to this person.

THE CHAIRMAN: And was it your impression from the conversation you
had with this intermediary that the subject of a pardon for you had been discussed

with the President?
MR. COHEN: I'd have to actually go back and refer to the

want to be wrong on that answer, but

text.

I don't

-

THE CHAIRMAN: And was there any suggestion as to what you needed
to do or not do in order to get a pardon?
MR. COHEN: No.

THE CHAIRMAN: Was there any indication in that conversation with the
intermediary about why they were approaching you on the subject of a pardon?
MR. COHEN: Not that I recall.

THE CHAIRMAN: And how many conversations did you have with this
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS

2LL

I F]ED

intermediary?
MR. COHEN: Quite a few. About at least 10, maybe more.

THE CHAIRMAN: And they began after the search?
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: And they continued untilwhat point?
MR. COHEN: I would say approximately 2 months.

THE CHAIRMAN: They had 2 months of duration after the search?
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: And was there a precipitating event that brought about
an end to those discussions?
MR. COHEN: Yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: What was that event?
MR. COHEN: The answer to that would actually kind of give away the
answer
[Discussion off the record.]
MR. COHEN: Well, something occurred with me where --

THE CHAIRMAN: I was going to say, was it a change in your
circumstance or theirs?
MR. COHEN:

Mine. That - yes, that's why I decided -

THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.
MR. COHEN:

-

to disengage that person in conversation.

THE CHAIRMAN:

lsee.

Okay.

lf I could, with respect to Mr. Sekulow, you had repeated conversations with
him on the subject of pardons?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
UNCLASSIFIED

 UNCLASS

272

I FIED

THE CHAIRMAN: And did he indicate that he was having those
conversations with you at the behest of the President?
MR. COHEN: At the behest of the President? I don't

know. That the

President knew of the conversations.

THE CHAIRMAN: So he let you know that he was discussing with the
President a potential pardon for you?
MR. COHEN: Yes, that that was part of our conversations.

THE CHAIRMAN: And did the conversations with Sekulow on the subject
of pardons take place before or after the search of your premises?
MR. COHEN: Well, there were some that I believe were before, which is

why I wanted to check in terms of timing, and then definitely after.
THE CHAIRMAN: And were any of the conversations you had with
Mr. Sekulow contemporaneous with the conversations you had with the second
intermediary?
MR. COHEN: lt's possible,

yes.

lt's possible. Again, I'd have to just

check.

THE CHAIRMAN: And you had

-

MR. MONICO: Well, hold on one second.
[Discussion off the record.]
MR. COHEN: I don't recall if I spoke with Sekulow after the

raid.

But

I

may have, though. That's why I want to just check.
THE CHAIRMAN: Did the two know of each other? Did Mr. Sekulow
know there was a second person acting as an intermediary for someone in the

White House?
MR. COHEN: I don't recallthat.
UNCLASSIFIED

 UNCLASS

I F]

2L3

ED

THE CHAIRMAN: Just let me ask one other question, and then I'llturn it
over to my colleagues on this subject
MR. COHEN:

-

Sorry. I really don't want to be evasive.

I'm just trying to

respect, you know, the request.

THE CHAIRMAN: No, no,

no. Listen, you've had three gruesome

days,

and none of us can imagine what you've been through.
MR. COHEN: Thank you.

THE CHAIRMAN: You described conversations with Mr. Sekulow at times
when he would talk globally about maybe we'llgive everyone a pardon and make
this thing go away, correct?
MR. COHEN: Correct.

THE CHAIRMAN: Were there also conversations, though, that were quite
specific to

you? I'm talking

to my client, he knows about this, we're discussing a

pardon for you.
MR. COHEN: I don't know if he would specifically state it, again, the way
UNCLASS

I EI

ED

 214

UNCLASSIFIED

that you're putting it, where I just got off the phone with a client or something.
But, yes, there were conversations that were specific to me regarding a potential
pardon.

THE CHAIRMAN: My colleagues, and we'll let Mr. Goldman finish up after.
MR. MALONEY: Mr. Cohen, you said there was a screenshot that the

unnamed individual sent
I

you.

Could you tell us about that, please, a little more?

think you said that it was intended to show you that that person was

communicating with someone close to the President and it was a screenshot of a

phone log from, like, an iPhone? ls that what you were saying?
MR. COHEN: Yes, sir.
MR. MALONEY: And the point of that screenshot was, again

-

MR. COHEN: To show that he had the relationship with the individual, that
it wasn't fake.

MR. MALONEY: But did that screenshot show recent communications that

were intended to assure you that that person was speaking on behalf of that
person close to the President?
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR. MALONEY: And if you recall, how recently were those interactions
with the person close to the President that were reflected in that screenshot?
MR. COHEN: To the best of my recollection, it was that day or the day
earlier.
MR. MALONEY: So, in effect, it was meant to tell you, look, l'm talking to

this person right now; you can talk to me.
MR. COHEN: Yes,

sir.

That's exactly what it was meant to do.

MR. MALONEY: And you still have a copy of that screenshot?
UNCLASSIEIED

 UNCLASS

2L5

I FIED

MR. COHEN: Yes, sir.
MR. MALONEY: Thank you.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Castro?
MR. CASTRO: No questions.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Goldman?
BY MR. GOLDMAN:

O

I

just had a couple of followup questions.

ln any of your conversations with Mr. Sekulow when you discussed
pardons, did he reference in any way, either directly or indirectly, that he knew that

you had made false statements to Congress?

A

Well, he

-

I believe that he knew that the January date was

inaccurate.

O

But I'm saying, in those conversations about the pardons, did he say

that that was a reason why they were discussing a pardon for you?

A
O

Specifically? Not that I recall.
And just so we're clear, what was the reason why Jay Sekulow gave to

you for why you would receive a pardon?

A

Because there's no Russia, there's no collusion, and this whole matter

should just go away.

O
A
O

I'm talking about Mr. Sekulow, not Mr. Trump.

Right, but he was speaking on behalf of his client.

Right. But so the whole issue go away, what did he issue

by the

whole issue going away?

A

Well, here I was in a situation where now I'm testifying, and there is a

lot going on, and I certainly didn't want this in my !ife, and the President didn't want
UNCLASS

I FIED

 216

UNCLASSIFIED

this, you know, going on either, and the topic of pardons came up.

O

And is it fair to say that the reason why they were considering what

you called a global pardon was to get rid of these investigations?

A
O

To shut down the investigation.
Okay.

THE CHAIRMAN: I have one last question, and then we'll let you go,
Mr. Cohen.
MR. COHEN: Thank you.
MR. BITAR: We have a final statement.

THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, and a final statement. Okay.
Mr. Trump reportedly said of his firing of Comey that it would lift the cloud

and make the Russia stuff go away, or words along those lines. Was it your
sense in talking about a pardon of all these persons that it would likewise make
the Russia problem go away?
MR. COHEN: That's what I believed, yes.

THE CHAIRMAN: Maher.
Oh, Mr. Swalwell.
MR. SWALWELL: Why did you not go along with the pardon plan?
MR. COHEN: I would've taken it at that point in time, you know, early on,
because then it was, well, you know, you have to wait until you get further down'

the road.
MR. SWALWELL: Why aren't you going along with it now?
MR. COHEN: I'm sorry?
MR. SWALWELL: Why aren't you going along with it now?
MR. COHEN: I -- because I don't want a pardon from
UNCLASS

I FIED

him. And it was

 UNCLASS

I FI

217

ED

supposed to end in 4 weeks, and then it was 6 weeks, as I had previously stated.

And they said to me, well, you know, it will be September. And then September
came around, and the joint defense agreement came to an

end.

You know,

Mr. Trump refused to make payments to the lawyers, and -[Discussion off the record.]
MR. COHEN: Because I don't want

it.

I don't

want it from

him.

I

accepted the responsibility. You know, I took the plea, and I'm prepared to accept

the consequences. There's much more here, and ljust don't believe .MR. SWALWELL: And do you believe that, had you just stayed engaged
on the pardon talk, even having the raid happen and the indictments dropped, that
if you'd just gone along and stayed on message, that you probably could have

gotten the

-

MR. COHEN: I don't believe

it.

I

don't believe that the President is going

to give lt/anafort a pardon. I don't believe he would give anybody a pardon.
And, again, so, talk about code, right? He sends out these messages that
if you take the fall for him, you're a good guy, and if you don't, you're weak or

you're a

rat.

Meaning, someone like mysetf, that there's definitely no pardon for

you.

He'll never give Manafort or anybody a pardon because politically it's not
going to be good for

him. So he's going to keep

it on message so that Manafort

stays silent, and Roger Stone, and they just go along with, again, the narrative, but
he'll let them rot in jail forever. He just doesn't care.
MR. SWALWELL: Yield back.
MR. COHEN: lt's all about him.

THE CHAIRMAN: Maher.
UNCLASSIFIED

 278

UNCLASS I EIED

MR. BITAR: Thank you.

To conclude today's interview, my name is Maher

Bitar.

I'm the general

counsel for the committee. Thank you for appearing today and for committing to
return on March 6th.
MR. COHEN: Yes.
MR.

BITAR: ln advance of your appearance on March 6th, we will be

sending a formal communication to your counsels listing the documents that we
seek from you as well as asking you to recall and refresh your memory on certain
matters that we've discussed during the proceeding.

The documents will include, to the extent you have access to them, the joint
defense agreement; phone records reflecting some of the time periods that we
have discussed during today's interview; drafts of your statements to this

committee, including multiple drafts if there are; Mr. Quigley asked you about who
else could substantiate certain discussions; any text communications -THE CHAIRMAN: Could I interrupt for one moment before members leave
the room?
MR. BITAR: Yep.

THE CHAIRMAN: Today's session is in executive session. ljust want to
remind everyone. Nothing that was said here leaves the

room. And of particular

sensitivity is anything concerning the potential actions by the Southern District of
New York or the special counsel.

So I just want to remind everybody, none of this stuff that we talked about
today leaves the room.
Thank you.
MR. BITAR: Thank you.
UNCLASS

I FIED

 UNCLASS]FIED

2L9

And just, finally, there was also discussion of a screenshot.
MR. COHEN: Uh-huh.
MR. BITAR: We will catalog all of this in a formal communication from the
committee to your counsels.
Separately, we provided to the minority a complete set of the exhibits today,
only some of which were introduced into the record. These include executive

session and other sensitive material. And as discussed with the minority, we will
be collecting them now and we will bring them back to the March 6th appearance.
Thank you very much.
MR. COHEN: Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 5:01 p.m., the deposition was concluded.]

UNCLASS

I FIED

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August 14,201'l

EXlllBtT n

traoP

VIA E-MAIL
Hon. K. Michael Conaway
Hon. Adam B. Schiff
c/o Mr. Kashyap P, Patel, Esq.
Mr. Wells C. Bennett, Esq.

Ms. Shannon L. Green, Esq.

House Permanent Select Comminee on Intelligence

HVC-304, The Capitol
Washinglon, D.C.20515

Re:

Michael D. Cohen, Esquire

Dear Representatives Conaway and Schiff:

I am writing on behalf of my client, MichaelCohen, in connection with the inquiry of the House
Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (the "Committee") into potential Russian
interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election. We have previously delivered to your offices
two document productions and have others in preparation. The Committee included Mr. Cohen
in its inquiry based solely upon certain sensational allegations contained in the "Company
Intelligence Reports" (the "Dossier") released to the public in or around January 2017. Absent
those allegations, Mr. Cohen would not be involved in your investigation. We now write to
address those allegations.
As a preliminary matter, we have not uncovered a single document that would in any way
corroborate the Dossier's allegations regarding Mr. Cohen, nor do we believe that any such
document exists. Mr. Cohen vehemently denies the claims made in the Dossier about him,
which are false and remain wholly unsubstantiated. We believe the allegations are so profoundly
wrong about Mr. Cohen that the Dossier is libelous and any repetition of its allegations by the
Committee should be rejected.
Instead, we believe the Committee should discern and publicly disclose the entity or entities that
paid for the 35-page Dossier. It should seek all the work papers of the Dossier's author, MI-6
former intelligence agent, Mr. Christopher Steele. It should consider whether the Dossier was
intended to and did impact the election by making totally false allegations about Mr. Cohen and
others.

US. pnclice conducl.d through Mcolr,tDlt Wll il Em.ry Lu.

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Hon. K. Michael ConawaY
Hon. Adam B. Schiff
August 14,2017

Page2

would provide
If Mr. Cohen were questioned about the Dossier's allegations, we believe that he
only the allegations
the information set iorth below, Mr. Cohen vehemently denies not

as well as any summaries
addrcsscd bclow, but also any and all substantively similar allegations,
of those allegations.

l.

Allegation (Page l8): "Kremtin insialer reports TRUMP lawyer coHEN's
secret meeting/s wtih Kremlin officirls in August 2016 rvas/were held in
prague": Mr]Cohen denies this allegation and it is entirely false. Mr. Cohen has
Cohen
only one passport, which was issued by the u.s. Department of State' Mr'
to PragLre, Czech Republic, as evidenced by his passport' He
2016.
did not participate in mee-tings with Krimlin officials in Prague in August
has

Z.

nevcitar.l.d

.,Rossotrudnichestvo was being used as cover for this
Allegation (Page lE):
relationship an-d its-ofiice in Prague may well have been used to host the
COHEN/R;ssian Presidential Adm inistratiou (PA) meetin g/s" : Mr. Cohen
the
denies this allegation and it is entirety false. Mr. Cohen is not familiar with
any
of
having
aware
is
he
nor
organization, ilssotrudnichestvo, or its members,
to
lraveled
has
never
Mr.
Cohen
de-atings with the organization as described.

prague, Czech Repullic, as evidenced by his passpgrt. Hc did not meet "officials
from the pA Legai Department clandestinely in an EU country in August 2016."

3.

Allegation (Page 18): "KOSACHEY, also 'plausibly denlable' being part of
the Russian lelslature rather than cxccutive, had facilitated tbe contoct in
prague and bfimplication, may have attendedthe meeting/s with COHEN
theri in August."i lrrlr. Cohen denies this allegation and it is entirely false . Mr'

Cohen has nlver traveled to Prague, Czech Republic, as evidenced by his U.S.
passport. He did not participate in meetings of any kind with Kremlin offrcials in
irrague in August 2016. Mr. Cohen does not know Kostantin Kosachev, nor has
he ever met with Mr. Kosachev.

4.

Allegation (Page 18): "COHEN met oflicials from the PA Legal Department
clandestineiy in an EU country in August 2015. This was in order to clean up
thc mess lefi Uetrind by western media revelations of TRUMP ex-campaign
mana ger MANAFORT's co rrupt relationship_w_ith the former pro-Russian
yANdKOVyCH regime in Ukraine end TRIIMP foreign policy advisor,
Carter pAGE,s secret meetiugs in Moscow rvith senior regime ligures in July
2016. According to the Kremtin advisor, these meetinglswere originally
scherluted for CbgnN in Moscow but shifted to what was considered an

 Hon. K. Michael ConawaY
Hon. Adam B. Schiff
August 14,2017
Page 3

operationally .soft, EU country when it was judged too cornp.romising for
him to travei to the Russinn capitat.": Mr. Cohen denics this allegation and it is
entirely false. Mr. Cohen did not meet "officials from the PA Legal Department
clandestinely in an EU country in August 2016." Mr. Cohen has never traveled to
Russia, nor was he ever scheduled to travel to Moscow for the purposes
described.

5

6

7

Allegation (Page 30): ,,[A] key role in the secret TRUMP campaign/Kremlin
relatlonship was being played by the Republican csndidate's personal lawyer
Michael COtfEN.": Mr, Cohen denies this allegation and it is entirely false. Mr'
Cohen is not aware of any "sccret TRUMP campaign/IGcmlin relationship," Mr'
Cohen did not play any role in this fictitious relationship'

Allegation (Page32): .,Kremtin insider outlines important role played by
TRUMP's lawyer COHEN in secret liaison with Russian leadership.": Mr.
Cohen denies this allegation and it is entirely false.
Allegation (Page 32): "COHEN engaged with Russians in trying to cover up
scandal of MANAFORT and exposure of PAGE and meets Kremlin officials
secrctly in the EU in August in pursuit of this goal,": Mr. Cohen denies this
atlegation and it is entirely false. Mr. Cohen did not participate in any secret
meetings with Kremlin oflicials in the European Union in August. Mr. Cohen has
never "engaged with Russians" in an attempt to conceal or suppress information

about Paul Manafort, Carter Page, or anyone else.
8.

Atlegation (Page 32): "[A] Kremlin insider hightighted the importance of
Republican presidential candidate Donald TRUMP's lawyer, Michael
COHEN, in the ongoing secret liaison relationship betrveen the New York
tycoon's campaign aud the Russian leadership' COHEN's role had grown
foltowlng lbe departure of Paul MANNAFORT as TRUMP's campaign
manager in August 2016.i: Mr. Cohen denies this allegation and it is entirely
false. Mr. Cohen is not aware of any "ongoing secret liaison relationship"
between the Trump campaign and "Russian leadership," nor did he play any role
in such a relationship.

 Hon. K. Michael ConawaY
Hon. Adam B. Schiff
August 14,2017

Page4

I

r0.

ll

(COHEN now wos heavily engaged in a cover up and
A[egation (Page 32):
dam-age limitation operatlon in the attempt to prev-en_t the full details of
tnU[iP's rclationship with Russia being exposed.": Mr. Cohen denies this
allegation and it is entirely false. Mr. Cohen is not aware of any impropriety
relaling to Mr, Trump's "relationship" with Russia, nor is he aware of Mr. Trump
having-any impropeipolitisal relationship with ofticials of the Russian
feOeration. Atcordingly, Mr. Cohen has taken no action whatsoever lo "cover
up" any aspcct of Mr. Trump's dealings in Russia.
Allegrtion (Page 33): .,Things had become even 'hotter' since August on the
rRUMr-Russia track. According to the Kremlin insider, this had meant
thai direct contact between the TRUMP team and Russia had been farmed
out by the Kremlin to trusted agents of influence working in pro-government
policy institutes like that of Law and Comparative Jurisprudence. COHEN
i,ot"iver continued to leed for the TRLTMP tesm.": Mr. Cohen denies this
atlegation and it is entirely false. Mr, Cohen is not aware of any indirect
conimunications between the "TRUMP team" and "trusted agents" of the
Kremlin. Mr. Cohen did not play any role in such communications'
Allegetion (Page 34): .,TRUMP',s representative coHEN accompanied to- Prague in AugustiSeptember 20f 6 by 3 colleagues for secret discussions with
Xre-mtin reprisentrtives and associated operators/hackers": Mr. Cohen dcnies
rhis allegation and it is entirely false. Ir{r. Cohen has never traveled to Prague,
Czech Republic, as evidenced by his passport. MI. Cohen did not participate in
discussions of any kind (secret or othcrwisc) with "Kremlin rcpresentatives and
associated operators/trackers" in August or September 2016.

12.

Allegation (Page 34): "COHEN had been accompanied to Prague by 3
colleagues and the timing of the visit was either in the last week of August or
the first week of September. One of their main Russian interlocutors was
Oleg SOLODUKHIN operating under Rossotrudnichestvo cover.": Mr.
Cohen denies this altegation and it is entirely false. Mr. Cohen has never traveled
to Prague, Czech Republic, as evidenced by his passport. Mr' Cohen is not
familiar with the organization, Rossotrudnichestvo, or its members, nor is he
aware of having any dealings with the organization as described. Mr. Cohen does
nol know OIeg Solodukhin, nor has he ever met with Mr' Solodukhin.

 Hon. K, Michael ConawaY
Hon. Adam B. Schiff
August 14,2017
Page 5

13.

Allegation (Page35): "In Prague, COHEN agreed contingency plans for
various scenarios to protect the operation, but in particular what was to be
done in the event thai Hittary CLINTON won the presidency.": Mr, Cohen
denies this allegation and it is entirely false. Mr. Cohen has never traveled to
Prague, CzechRepublic, as evidenced by his passport. Mr. Cohen was nol part of
any-,,operation," rior did he ever discuss or agree to plans of the type described.

In an cgregious attempt to link Mr. Cohen to an imagincd scheme, the Dossicr states, "COHEN's
wife is-of Russian descent and her father a leading proPerty developer in Moscow." Mr. Cohen
denies the implication of this statement, which is both offensive and patently absurd' Mr. .
Cohen,s wife-is from the Ukraine and carne to the United States when she was five years old,
Mr. Cohen's father-injaw is not a "leading property developer in Moscow," nor does he own a
dacha in Russia. Neither Mr. Cohen nor any member of his family had any involvement in the
conduct alleged in the Dossier.
Other sources have also refuted the Dossier's allegations regarding Mr. Cohen. We have
attached a few, representative examples of news articles refuting the Dossier's allegations:

.

.

-

Natasha Bertrand, Explosive memos claim Trump's lawyer mel with Kremlin oflicials
but he may have beei mistakenfor a person with the same raze, BuslNEsS INSIDER, Jan.
I I , 20 I 7, http://www.businessinsider.com/michael-cohen-trump-201 7- I ("On
Wcdnesday, L US gor"*tnent source told CNN's Jakc Tapper that a different Michael
Cohen, not Trump's lawyer, was in Prague in August and September 2016")
Shane Harris, Devlin Barrett, and Alan Cullison, Spy Agencies Investigating Claims
Trump Advisers l(orked lttrith Russian Agenls, THe Well SrneerJounNAL, Jan. 9,2tJ17,

http:/www,wsj.com/articles/spy-agencies-investigating-claims-trurnp-advisers-worked'
wiih-russian-agents-1484101731 ("The FBI has found no evidence that [Cohen] traveled
to the Czech Republic, where the meeting allegedly took place in August of last year,
officials said.")

.

Brian Ross, Matthew Mosk, and Patrick Reevell, Former British Spy Gathered
Unsubstantiated Intel on Trump, Officials Say, Aac News, Jan. 11,2017,
http:l/abcnews.go.comAJS/british-spy-gathered-unsubstantiated-intel+rumpoflicials/story?id=44720601 ("ABC News went to the address lir*ed to the property
developer in Moscow identified in the report as Cohen's father in law. A tenant at the
luxury Moscow residence put ABC News in contact with the owner, who said
emphatically that he had no connection to Cohen.")

 Hon. K. Michael Conaway
Hon. Adam B. Schiff
August 14,2017
Page 6

We do not believe that the Committee should give credence to or Perpetuate any of the.Dossier's
altegations relating to Mr, Cohen unless the Committce can obtain independent and reliable
conoboration of those allegations, which we do not believe exists. Based on Mr. Cohen's
proffered responses to the Dossier's atlegations, we do not believe that an interview or testimony
concerning these allegations is wananted.
Please contact me at your earliest convenience at

about this submission,

$f.*,Wo^,
Counsel

for Michael Cohen

Enelosures

ifyou have any questions

 BUSINESS

INSIDER

Explosive memos claim Trump'S lawyer met
but he may have
with Kremlin officials
been mistaken for a person with the same
name

-

m

NATASHA BERTRAND
JAN. 11,2017, 10:11 AM

Memos authored by a British operative
and provided to US intelligence officials
about President-elect Donald Trump's ties
to Russia claim that TrumP's lawYer,
Michael Cohen, met secretlywith ltemlin
of6cials in Prague in Autust 2016.
Cohen has dismissed the reports on the
memos as "fake newsr" and accounts
corroborating his version of events have
surfaced since the material in the memos,
whie,h is unverified, was published in full
by BuzzFeed on Tuesday.

"speaking to a compatriot and friend on 19
October zot6, a lGemlin insider provided
further details of reported clandestine
meeting/s between Republican
presidential candidate Donaltl Trump's
lawyer Michael COHEN and Ikemlin
representatives in August 2ot6," the
dossier reads.

MichaelCohen, an attorney for President-elect Donald Trump.
Rlchard Dreu/A?

"The Kremlin insider clearly indicated to his/her frientl that the reported contact/s took place in Prague, Czech
Republic," it said.
The memos claimed that the Trump campaign and the Kremlin had established an "exchange of information" of
"mutual benefit" that was in part facilitated by Cohen.
Cohen denietl the allegations on TWitter on Tuesday night, shortly after CNN broke the story that the FBI and the
CIA hail presented a synopsis of the unidentified British operative's intelligence to Tnrmp last week as part of a

classified report.

"I have never been to Prague in my life. #fakenews," Cohen tweeted. He included a photo of his passport.

 6

MichaelCohen

Follow

@MichaelCohen2l2

I have never been to Prague in my life. #fakenews

9:21 PM

- Jan10,2017

7,802

11,121

31,779

Cohen told The Atlantic that he was in New York for the better part of August and visited the University of
Southern California with his son at the end of the month to check out its baseball team. Their visit on August 29

was corroborated by a person within USC baseball who talked with The Atlantic.

On Wednesday, a US government source told CNN's Jake Tapper that a different Michael Cohen, not Trump's
lawyer, was in Prague in August and September zo16.
The memos from the British operative, who is apparently consiclered legitimate by US intelligence officials, were
compiled in a dossier that has been circulating among journalists and government officials since last year,

 THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
POLITICS

NATIONAL SECURITY

Spy Agencies Investigating Claims Trump Advisers Worked With
Russian Agents
The unverified allegations-including a claim Russia has material that could be used

to blackmail Mr. Trump-were deemed sufficiently significant to brief the
president-e lect

U.S. President-elect Donald Trump listening to members of the media in the lobby of Trump Torver in Nerv York on
Monday, Pl lO.[o;ALf]lN LOI-lR-JONES/PR[SS POOL

By
Shane Horri:s,

Devlin Bqrretl und

Alan Cullisott
January 9, 20.l7

U.S. intelligence agencies and the Federal Bureau of Investigation have spent rnonths trying to
substantiate explosive clairns, compiled by a fbrmer Western intelligence official, that Russian

 govemment operatives engaged in an extensive conspiracy with advisers to Donald Trump's
presidential campaign and employees of his company, people familiar with the matter said.
to
The unverified allegations-including a claim Russia has material that could be used

blackmail Mr. Trump-were deemed sufficiently significant by senior intelligence officials to
summarize them in a two-page addendum to the classified briefing President-elect Trump
people
received last Friday about Russian efforts to influence the U.S. presidential campaign' the
said.

"FAKE NEWS - A TOTAL POLITICAL WITCH HUNT!" Mr' Trump tweeted after the
allegations surfaced pubticly Tuesday evening.
U.S. officials confirmed that a summary of the information had been given to Mr. Trump. They
said sharing of such unverified information was taken out of an abundance of caution that the

incoming president should be aware of allegations being made against him that could become

public-a decision intelligence

experts backed. President Barack Obama received the same

information, offi cial s said.
The agencies are continuing to investigate the claims, the people familiar with the matter said.
Russia on Wcdnesday denied it had compromising material on Mr. Trump, calling the report an

"absolute fabrication" and an attempt to damage U.S.-Russian relations.
,,1

can picture how difficutt a decision this must have been," former CIA Director Michael

Hayden said of the decision to inform Mr. Trump. "But

if we had this data, others may have had

this data too. And regardless of truth or falsity, I can see why they thought the

pre

sident-elect

should know."
Among the allegations, contained in a set of confidential memos written by the former official.
are that

Mr. Trump's attomey, Michael Cohen, met with Kremlin officials and discussed how to

arrange cash payments to hackers working under Moscow's direction against the presidential

campaign of Hillary Clinton. The FBI has found no evidence that he traveled to the Czech
Republic, where the meeting allegedly took place in August of last year, officials said.

 Mr. Cohen, in an interview, denied any such meeting. He said in an interview Tuesday evening
that he had never been contacted by the FBI or any other U.S. agency on these issues. He said

Mr. Trump has also not contacted him about them. Mr. Cohen said he previously knew about the
allegations because he had been contacted about them byjournalists.

The former official who compiled the dossier works for a private investigations company and
was hired by both Republicans and Democrats to investigate Mr. Trump, according to one

official close to the matter. His reports have circulated for months among law-enforcement and
intelligence agencies as well as congressional offices and news outlets, including The Wall Street
Journal. While U.S. agencies have been unable to veriff the allegations, the former official who
produced the report has a long and respected track record among intelligence officials. The

Journal hasn't been able to verify the allegations.
The memos, which have been the subject of intense interest, include claims that Russian officials
have evidence of Mr. Trump engaging in sexual acts with prostitutes and have held the

information in reserve

as potential blackmail.

The memos were published in

full online Tuesday evening, amid the latest twist in a monthslong

feud between the intclligence community and Mr. Trump over the qucstion of whether and why
Russia interfered with the U.S. election.

Before last week's briefing, the heads of the intelligence sgencies spent hours testifying before
the Senate about their evidence, which showed that Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an
extensive hacking campaign and leaks of private emails, principally directed at Democrats, in a

bid to help Mr. Trump.

Mr. Trump had expressed skepticism about the claims. After the briefing he received Friday, he
toned down his rhetoric and seemed to allow that thc Russians had engaged in hacking, though
he later added that it was important for the U.S. to maintain good relations with Russia.
Russian officials have repeatedly denied involvement in election-related hacking or trying to

influence the U.S. presidential elcction.

 The revclations about the unsubstantiated allegations could complicate a week in which several

of Mr. Trump's highest-level cabinet officials face confirmation hearings before the Senate and
when Mr. Trump, on Wednesdav morning, is scheduled to give lris first press conference since
July.
Top lawmakers already have inquired publicly about the kinds of issues described in the memos,
In a hearing Tuesday with four top intelligence officials, Sen. Ron Wyden (D.. Ore.) asked FBI
Director Jarnes Comey if the bureau had investigated whether individuals close to the Trump
campaign have any links to Russians. Mr. Comey declined to answer, saying he couldn't confirm

or deny ifan investigation had begun.

t'Bl Director

James Comey before the Senate Select Comminee on Intelligence on Tuesday' PHOTO: JOSHUA

ROBERTS/REUTERS

CNN first reported that officials had given the allegations to Mr. Trump.
"The story as presented by CNN lacks any accuracy and is yet another attempt to discrtdit Mr'

Trump's landslide victory in this election," said Mr. Cohen, executive vice president of the
Trump Organization and special counsel to the president-elest.

Mr. Trump won the electoral college but lost the popular vote to Mrs. Clinton

 Mr. Cohen said that there is "zero truth" to the idea that there has been any relationship between
the Trump Organization and the Russian govemment or any ongoing communications during the
campaign between the Trump campaign and Russian affiliates'

A Russian official who was alleged to have met with Mr. Cohen in Prague, Oleg Solodukhin,
also denied any such meeting took place, calling the report "some kind of misunderstanding."
House Intelligence Commiftee Chairman Deyin Nunes (R., Calif.) said that he hadn't seen the
memos and that they hadn't been discussed in a briefing on Tuesday for the heads of the

intelligence committees and top lawmakers from the House and Senate, the so-called Gang

of

Eight.

"It should not be a surprise to anyone

that the Russians are always looking for dirt on any

politician," he said. "That wouldn't be news."
Asked how damaging the implications could be to Mr. Trump, Mr. Nunes said.

"l

would not

jump to any conclusions here. This seems maybe taken a linle out of context."
Mr. Nunes is one of the lawmakers working with Mr. Trump's transition team

Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn and K.T. McFarland, Mr. Trump's picks for national security adviser and
deputy national security adviser respectively, declined to comment on the reports.

The memos appear to have been a subject of interest in Congress since last fall. In an Oct, 30
letter, then-senate Minority Leader Harry Reid (D., Nev.) wrote to Mr. Comey accusing him

of

"a disturbing double standard for the treatment of sensitive information."

Mr, Reid wrote that Mr. Comey had publicized any potentially damaging information about
Hillary Clinton, while behaving very differently regarding Mr. Trump.
"You possess explosive information about close ties and coordination between Donald Trump,
his top advisors, and the Russian govemment," Mr. Reid wrote. "The public has a right to know

this information. I wrote to you months ago calling for this information to be released to the

public."

 Exhibit 2
From:

Sent:
'o:

Subject:

Giorgi Rtskhiladze
9l24l20t5 5:47:10 PM
Michael Cohen [/O=TRUM
Re :,Qox aa

HPSCI - Michael Co
(Feb. 28, 2019)
P ORG/OU=F

irst Ad ministrative Group/cn =Recipients/cn=mcohenl

ug Tparvrn.doc

Here is an interpreted quick translation. Let's discuss this and the rest at 3pm

I
E

"To Mayor of Moscow, Mr. Sergei s. Sobyanin

B
E

H

Dear Mayor,

e1"+<r<A

l: lb o1l,lr
tor,v
,6
I

tlic,o(as

l\l\i +ol,Ld(

Based on the rapid development of Moscow's real estate sector in the past a ferv years and it's ever-growing
potential the Trump Organization is being approached by the Global Prospect LLC a lvloscow based real estate
development company co-founded by one of legendary Russian architects, developer and a statesrnan Mr.
Michael Posokhin to participate in a project of a monumental proportions which would be called Trump World

Tower Moscow and would housed in the heart of Moscow City development'

The Trump World Torver project would be destined to change lhe entire landscape of the real estate
developmint in Mosoow and with such gtobally recognized brand name as Trump it is likely for the project to
steer the attention of international investors towards Moscow as well as act as a symbol of stronger economic,
business and cultural relationships between Nerv York and Moscow and therefore United States and the Russian
Federation.
Trump organization is looking forward to furthering the development of this exciting project with Global
Prospect and to engaging in a close dialogue with you and your administration in order to better understand
your future plans on development of the Russian capital.

To this end, we woutd like to invite you and your team to visit us in New York City in the nears future and to
plan for Trump organization to visit Moscow in order to have a first hand look at the location of the Trump
World Tower Project. "
Respectfully
Giorgi Rtskhiladze
President

The Toroil Group

Green Wind Energy Group
555 Madison Ave

sth Floor, New York,

100r2
D

NY

This e-mail message, and any attachments to it, are for the sole use of the intended recipients, and may contain
confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution of this email
message or its attachments is

prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by

reply ernail and destroy all copies of the original message. Please note that any views or opinions presented in
this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. Finally, while
the company uses virus protection, the recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of
viruses. The company accepts no liabiliry for any damage causcd by any virus transmitted by this email.

COMPANY PROPRIETARY AND CONF IDENTIAL INFORIUATION

MDC.H-o00567

 On Sep 24, 2015 , at 12:47 PM, Michael Cohen <mcohen(rDtrumpors.com> wrote:
I need it translated
Sent from my iPhone

MichaelD. Cohen

Executive Vice President and
SpecialCounsel to
Donald J. Trump
725 Fiflh Avenue

New Yor

New York 10022

Phone:

Cellular

mcohen@trumporq.com
On Sep 24,2015, at 12'.47 PM, Giorgi Rtskhila

WilI explain allat

wrote

3

Respectfully
Giorgi Rtskhiladze
President
The Toroil Group

Green Wind Energy Group
555 Madison Ave
5th Floor, New York, NY
10012

D

This e-mail message, and any attachments to it, are for the sole use of the
intended recipients, and may contain confidential and privileged
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution of this
email message or its attachments is prohibited. If you are not the intended
recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the
original message. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email

are solely those ofthe author and do not necessarily represent those ofthe
company. Finally, while the company uses virus protection, the recipient should
check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company
accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email

On Sep 24,2015, at 12'.40 PM, Michael Cohen <mcohen@trumporg.com> wrote:
What is this?
Sent from my iPhone

MichaelD. Cohen

COMPANY PROPRI ETARY AND CONFIDENTIAL I NFORMATION

MDC-H.OOO568

 Executive Vice President and
Special Counsel to
Donald J. Trump
725 Fifth Avenue

New York, New York 10022
Phone

Cell

m c oh en (D.trum

On

oorq. com

24 2015 at l2'.3 8 PM, Giorgi Rtskhiladze

wrote:

Letter to the Mayor of Ivloscow from Trump org.
Can you translate or you need me to have it
translated? We need to send this lener to the Mayor
of Moscow (second guy in Russia) he is aware of
the potential project and will pledge his support
rvhich means that the only spot remaining in
Moscow citi rvill be dedicated to Trump tower and
financed. Talk at 3.
<AonaauA Tpar*an.doc>

Respectfully
Giorgi Rtskhiladze
President
The Toroil Group
Green Wind Energy Group
555 Madison Ave
5th Floor, New York,

NY

100 2

D

This e-mail message, and any attachments to it, are
for the sole use of the intended recipients, and may
contain confi dential and privileged
information. Any unauthorized review, use,
disclosure or distribution of this email message or
its attachments is prohibited. If you are not the
intended recipient, please contact the sender by
reply email and destroy all copies of the original
message. Please note that any views or opinions
presented in this email are solely those of the author
and do not necessarily represent those ofthe
company. Finally, while the company uses virus
protection, the recipient should check this email and
any attachments for the presence of viruses. The

COMPANY PROPRIETARY AND CONF.IDENTIAL INFORMATION

MDC.H-000569

 Majority Exhibit 4
HPSCI

- Michael

(Feb.28,2019)

Georgiy Rukhiladze
9/27 l21ts 5:02:25
Michael Cohen [/O=TRUMP ORG/OU=First Administrative Group/cn=Recipients/cn=mcohen]
Re: Trump Tower Moscow_2015-09-23.pdf

From:
Sent:
To:

Subject

taike- as discussed here's generaf info

for the proposed

t
E
o

g

Ts

Cohen

+rc8
EXHIBII

H

company name:

Global Development Group LLc a Russ'ian company
l'lajori ty shareholder; N'i chai'l posikhin (the princ'ipa1 developer and co-architect
in EU t,lercury tower in Moscow city
htt ps t / / en. m . wi ki pedi a. o r g /wi ki /ue e cury -cj ty-Towe r
simon ttizharadze (l sent you photo of him with Trump) and myself
company lddress

l

of the tallest building

Ulitsa
rederation 101-1,29

25 aolshaya Gruzinsksya

Moscow, Russian

Projects:
rrump residentia'l building (r''l'l have the project presentation for you on Tue) and Trump World tower
(your project concept which is being shared with the presidents cabinet and Moscow mayor) both projects
being'located in Moscow City development and developed in direct co1'laboration with the Moscow Mayors

offi

ce .

Let's get the term sheet going.
cheers.

GR

Sent f rom ny

'i Phone

> on Sep 23, 2015,

at

11:46 AM, Michael Cohen <mcohen@trumporg.com> wrote:

to it, are for the so1e use of the intended recip'ients, and
confident'ial and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
distribution of this emai'l message or its attachments is prohibited. rf you are not the intended
recipient, please contact the sender by rep'ly emai'l and destroy all copies of the original nessage.
P'lease note that any views or op'in'ions presented in this ema'iI are soleiy those of thc author and do not
necessarily represent those of the company. Fina11y, while the company uses virus protection, the
recipient should check this enail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no
liabi'lity for any darnage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
> <Trump Tower Moscow_2015-09-23.pdf>
> This e-mail message, and any attachments
may contain

> Sent from my

'i Phone

> lvti chael D. cohen
> Executive vice President
> special counsel to
> Dona'l d J, Trump

> 725 Fifth
> New Yo
> Phone:
> Cel'l ul ar
> mcohe

and

Avenue

mpo

ert rrl,
I

:16 p,n

rg . com

ffi,,n,
Mi+otne,tl

COMPANY PROPR I ETARY AND CONFI DENTIAL I NFORMATION

MDC-H.OOO47,t

 g
g
E

artered
3z5l

ba-

>rrr
t

Drlfr^^te.Gol dnT,arrt

ibit

44

HPSCI - Michael Cohen
(Feb.28, 2019)

STATEMENT OF MICHAEL D. COHEN, ESQ.
Today, August 28,2017, my legal counsel, Stephen M. Ryan of McDermott Will & Emery LLP,
produccd documents to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (the
"Committee") on my behalf. Certain documents in the production reference a proposal for
"Trump Tolver Moscolv," rvhich contemplated a private real estate development in Russia. The
proposal rvas similar to other ideas for real estate projects contemplated years before any
campaign. I am rvriting to provide the Committee rvith additional information regarding the
proposal.
As background, other U.S. hotel chains and brands had already opened in Moscorv, including
Hyatt Hotels Corporation, Marriott International, Inc., and the Ritz-Carlton Hotel Company.
Similarly, the Trump Organization had foreign hotels, as lvell as golf and land projects, in
Canada, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Panama, Philippines, Scotland, South Korea, Turkey, the UAE
and Uruguay. During my ten years rvith the Trump Organization, the company received
countless proposals for licensing deals and real estate ventures in locations across the globe.
In or around September 2015,1 received a proposal for thc construction of a luxury hotel, office,
and residential condominium building in Moscow, Russia. I performed some initial due
diligence to assess rvhether the "Trump Tower Moscolv" proposal aligned rvith the'frump
Organization's strategic business interests. Based on my preliminary assessment of the proposal,
the licensee rvould be required to find and present an appropriate parcel of land that could be
obtained and developed rvith all necessary govemment permits and permissions. In addition, the
licensee rvould be responsible for all development costs and financing of the land and building.
The Trump Organization would license the "Trump" brand name to a qualified Moscorv-based
real estate development company for the purpose of identiffing, promoting, and marketing thc
building. The proposal rvas under consideration at the Trump Organization from September
2015 until the end of January 2016. By the end of January 2016,Ldetermined that the proposal
rvas not feasible for a variety of business reasons and should not be pursued further. Based on
my business determinations, the Trump Organization abandoned the proposal.
I rvorked on the proposal rvithin my capacity as Executive Vice Prcsident and Special Counsel to
the Trump Organization. I performed a dual role in evaluating the proposal and provided both
Iegal and business advice. I primarily communicated rvith the Moscorv;based development

company,I.C. Expert Investment Company ("Expert Investment"), through a U.S. citizen thirdparty intermediary, Mr, Felix Sater.

Mr. Sater lvas formerly an executive at a company called Bayrock Group and rvas involved in
the deal for the Trump SoHo Nerv York Hotel, rvhich broke groundin2}}7. Mr. Sater claimed
to have appropriate rclationships rvithin the business community in Rurssia in order to obtain the
real estate, ftnancing, goverrrment permits, and other items necessary for such a development.
The Trump Organization did not cmploy Mr. Sater in connection rvith tlie Trump Torver
Moscorv proposal, nor did the Trump Organization compensate Mr. Sater for his involvementin
the proposal. Mr. Sater acted as a deal broker and rvor.rld have been compensated by the licensee
if the proposal had been successful. I have know"n Mr. Sater for several decades and I routinely

 handled communications with him regarding the proposal. Mr. Sater, on occasion, made claims
about aspects of the proposal, as rvell as his ability to bring the proposal to fruition. Over the
course of my business dealings with Mr. Sater, he has sometimes used colorful language and has
been prone to "salesmanship." As a result, I did not feel that it rvas necessary to routinely
apprise others rvithin the Tmmp Organization of communications that Mr. Sater sent only to me.
Mr. Sater constantly asked me to travel to Moscolv as part of his efforts to push forward the
discussion of the proposal. I ultimately determined that the proposal lvas not feasible and never
agreed to make a trip to Russia. Consequently, I did not travel to Russia for this proposal (nor did
any other representative of the Trump Organization to the best of my knorvledge) and I have
never traveled to Russia. Despite overtures by Mr. Sater, I never considered asking Mr. Trump
to travel to Russia in connection rvith this proposal. I told Mr. Sater that Mr, Trump lvould not
travel to Russia unless there rvas a definitive agreement in place. To the best of my knolvledge,
Mr. Trump lvas never in contact with anyone about this proposal other than me on three
occasions, including signing a non-binding letter of intent in 2015.
On or around October 28,2015, Trump Acquisition, LLC executed a non-binding letter of intent
("LOI") with Expert Investment, memorializing the parties' "intention to negotiate for and
attempt to enter into a mutually acceptable agreement covering all aspects of the transaction."
The parties expressly agreed that, "unless and until a License Agreement between the Parties has
been executed and delivered, . . . no party shall be under any legal obligation ofany kind
lvhatsoever to consummate a transaction hereby by virtue of this LOL" Following execution of
the non-binding LOI, rve began more detailed rvork and analysis regarding various aspects of the
proposal. For example, rve solicited building designs from different architects and engaged in
preliminary discussions regarding potential financing for the proposal. In mid-January 2016,lvlr
Sater suggested that I send an email to Mr. Dmitry Peskov, the Press Secretary for the President
of Russia, since the proposal rvould require approvals rvithin the Russian government that had
not been issued. Those permissions were never provided. I decided to abandon the proposal less
than trvo weeks later for business reasons and do not recall any response to my email, nor any
other contacts by me with Mr. Peskov or other Russian govemment officials about the proposal.
The proposal never advanced beyond the non-binding LOI. I did not ask or brief Mr. Trump, or
any of his family, before I made the decision to terminate further lvork on the proposal.
The Trump Tolver Moscorv proposal rvas not related in any rvay to Mr.,Trump's presidential
campaign. The decision to pursue the proposal initially, and later to abandon it, lvas unrelated to
the Donald J, Trump for President Campaign. Both I and the Trump Organization \yere
evaluating this proposal and many others from solely a business standpoint, and rejected going
fonvard on that basis.

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