1
1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

2
3
4
5
6
7

United States of America,

) Criminal Action
) No. 19-CR-018
Plaintiff,
)
) SHOW CAUSE HEARING
vs.
)
) Washington, DC
Roger Jason Stone, Jr.,
) February 21, 2019
) Time: 2:30 p.m.
Defendant.
)
___________________________________________________________

8
9
10

TRANSCRIPT OF SHOW CAUSE HEARING
HELD BEFORE
THE HONORABLE JUDGE AMY BERMAN JACKSON
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
____________________________________________________________

11
A P P E A R A N C E S
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

For the Plaintiff: Michael John Marando
Jonathan Ian Kravis
U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE FOR THE
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
555 Fourth Street, NW
Washington, DC 20530
(202) 252-7068
Email: Michael.marando@usdoj.gov
Email: Jonathan.kravis3@usdoj.gov
Jeannie Sclafani Rhee
Aaron Jon Zelinsky
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
Special Counsel's Office
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20530
(202) 616-0800
Email: Jsr@usdoj.gov
Email: Asjz@usdoj.gov
For the Defendant: BRUCE S. ROGOW
LAW OFFICE OF BRUCE S. ROGOW, P.A.
100 NE 3rd Avenue
Suite 1000
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
(954) 767-8909
Email: Brogow@rogowlaw.com

 2
Robert C. Buschel
BUSCHEL & GIBBONS, P.A.
One Financial Plaza
100 S.E. Third Avenue
Suite 1300
Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33394
(954) 530-5301
Email: Buschel@bglaw-pa.com
L. Peter Farkas
HALLORAN FARKAS & KITTILA LLP
1101 30th Street, NW
Suite 500
Washington, DC 20007
(202) 559-1700 ext 102
Email: Pf@hfk.law
Grant J. Smith
STRATEGYSMITH, P.A.
401 East Las Olas Boulevard
Suite 130-120
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
(954) 328-9064
Email: Gsmith@strategysmith.com

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
Also present:
13

FBI Case Agent Michelle Taylor
FBI Case Agent Curtis Heide
____________________________________________________________

14
Court Reporter:
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Janice E. Dickman, RMR, CRR
Official Court Reporter
United States Courthouse, Room 6523
333 Constitution Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20001
202-354-3267

 3
1

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:

Good afternoon, Your Honor.

2

This afternoon we have criminal case number 19-18, United

3

States of America v. Roger Stone, Jr.

4

Mr. Stone is present in the courtroom, Your Honor.

5

Will counsel for the parties please approach the

6

lectern, identify yourself for the record.

7
8

MR. KRAVIS:

Good afternoon, Your Honor.

Jonathan

Kravis for the United States.

9

THE COURT:

10

MR. KRAVIS:

Good afternoon.
With me at counsel table is Michael

11

Marando, also from the D.C. U.S. Attorney's Office.

12

Jeannie Rhee and Aaron Zelinsky from the Special Counsel's

13

Office.

14

THE COURT:

15

MR. KRAVIS:

16

MR. ROGOW:

Good afternoon, Your Honor.

17

THE COURT:

Wait.

18

All right.

And

Good afternoon.

Thank you.

One at a time, using the

microphone, please.

19

MR. ROGOW:

May it please the Court, Bruce Rogow and

20

Peter Farkas for Roger Stone.

And Grant Smith and Rob Buschel

21

at counsel table also with Mr. Stone.

22

THE COURT:

23

Who's going to be handling the argument for the

24
25

And I note that the defendant is present.

defendant?
MR. ROGOW:

I am, Your Honor.

 4
1
2

THE COURT:

Well, why don't you remain there.

And you can be seated, Mr. Farkas.

3
4

Okay.

Mr. Haley, could you please provide a copy of
something that I've marked as Exhibit A to Mr. Rogow?

5

MR. ROGOW:

Received, Your Honor.

I have a copy.

6

THE COURT:

I would like to know if Exhibit 1 is the

7

Instagram post for which the defendant docketed the notice of

8

apology, found at docket 38, on February 18, 2019?

9

MR. ROGOW:

It is, Your Honor.

10

THE COURT:

So, Roger J. Stone, Jr. is the

11

defendant's Instagram account?

12

MR. ROGOW:

Yes, sir -- yes, ma'am.

13

THE COURT:

And the post depicted in Exhibit 1 was

I'm sorry.

14

posted and later removed on that Instagram account on or about

15

February 18?

16

MR. ROGOW:

It was.

17

THE COURT:

Okay.

18

deputy clerk.

19

record in this proceeding.

You can return the exhibit to the

And it will be sealed and made a part of the

20

I'm not done with you.

21

So what is your position on behalf of the defendant

22

on whether the media contact order in this case should be

23

modified?

24
25

MR. ROGOW:

My position is that it should not be

modified, that Mr. Stone should have another opportunity to

 5
1

comply.

2

that he can -- you can hear him, Your Honor, and hear him

3

explain what happened, why it happened, and how he apologizes

4

for it, as he did in that filing a couple of days ago.

5

would like to have another opportunity to comply with this

6

Court's original order.

7

regard to that.

8

And I want to put Mr. Stone on the witness stand so

THE COURT:

But he

And I think that is our position with

All right.

Well, if you choose to put

9

Mr. Stone on the stand, I'm going to give you that opportunity.

10

I do have a few questions for you first, and then I may save my

11

other questions for Mr. Stone.

12

In docket 28, your submission in response to my

13

solicitation of submissions about the media contact order, you

14

relied heavily on Nebraska Press Association, a case involving

15

prior restraints on the press.

16

it's pronounced Gentile or Gentile or Gentile case -- indicate

17

that Nebraska -- the Nebraska Press test, the clear and present

18

danger test that you hung your hat on, has to be applied when

19

the restraint is on a participant in a criminal trial?

Does the -- and I don't know if

20

MR. ROGOW:

It does not.

21

THE COURT:

All right.

22
23

So how does it apply then in

this situation?
MR. ROGOW:

It applies by analogy.

And I think even

24

stronger with regard to a defendant which is on trial for his

25

or her freedom.

The Nebraska Press case, of course, deals with

 6
1

restraints upon the press.

2

we're talking about a restraint upon the defendant.

3

Supreme Court has never addressed the restraint upon the

4

defendant in the First Amendment context, as far as I'm aware,

5

which is what I said in my filing to the Court.

6

THE COURT:

In a situation with Mr. Stone,

All right.

The

He's currently on bond

7

pending trial on an indictment charging multiple felonies, and

8

subject to conditions of pretrial release.

9

principles that you're talking about operate in connection with

10

the Bail Reform Act?

11

MR. ROGOW:

How do the

Well, they operate to the extent that the

12

Bail Reform Act focuses on whether or not there is a risk of

13

flight or a threat to the community, for the most part.

14

this situation there is neither a risk of flight nor a threat

15

to the community.

16

And in

The question in this case is whether or not there was

17

a violation of this Court's order, an order that the Court

18

entered, with warnings.

19

our position is that the Bail Reform Act is not the issue in

20

this case in terms of revocation of the conditions of his

21

release.

22

THE COURT:

And Mr. Stone will address that.

But

Well, what if I want to modify the

23

conditions of release?

What's the test for what a Court has to

24

find to impose a condition of pretrial release that's necessary

25

to protect another person or the community?

 7
1

MR. ROGOW:

Well, if you found that there is a real

2

threat to another person in the community, an actual clear and

3

present threat to that person, then of course you could apply

4

Your Honor's power to restrain that person, including

5

revocation of the conditions of release, or change of the

6

conditions of release.

7
8

THE COURT:

clear and specific threat to a specific person?

9
10

Where does the Bail Reform Act require a

MR. ROGOW:

It doesn't require in those terms, a

clear and present threat, Your Honor, but --

11

THE COURT:

Right.

You keep using those terms, and

12

now you've told me that it hasn't been applied in this

13

situation to a participant in the trial and it doesn't apply in

14

the case of the Bail Reform Act.

15

test?

16

MR. ROGOW:

So why do you keep using that

Because I think the test is the proper

17

test to use in a situation where a person is about to go on

18

trial, and is a defendant in a case, and has a right to bail, a

19

right to release on conditions that the Court sets.

20

seems to me that at that point, if the Court is going to not

21

allow him or her to be released, that there ought to be very

22

specific facts.

23

present seems to be a test that gets applied in many situations

24

where important liberty interests are at stake.

25

And so it

I use clear and present because clear and

THE COURT:

All right.

And what is the best legal

 8
1
2

authority you have for the theory that you've just laid out?
MR. ROGOW:

Well, I didn't have any legal authority

3

on that issue because that was not the subject of my response

4

with regard to the gag order.

5

authority off the top of my head, Your Honor, to tell you what

6

case or what statute holds with regard to the conditions of

7

release in a situation like this.

8

situation like this, where you have a specific single instance

9

where this occurred.

10

THE COURT:

So I really don't have any

And I'm focusing on a

You said the following in your very

11

impassioned submission about the proposed media contact order:

12

You said, "While it is true that most criminal defendants do

13

not wish to be heard, either publicly or in the course of their

14

trial, Mr. Stone is not such a defendant.

15

than 40 years, has been talking and writing about matters of

16

public interest.

17

His work, for more

"He's published half a dozen books, many stating

18

controversial viewpoints.

19

articles and has been the subject of many hundreds more,

20

published in myriad publications.

21

a posthumous pardon for Marcus Garvey or the style of his

22

clothes or the state of the nation, Roger Stone is a voice.

23

He's penned many hundreds of

Whether it is his pursuit of

"Given those realities, a prior restraint of Roger

24

Stones's free speech rights would be an unconstitutional

25

violation of Stone's right to work, to pursue his livelihood,

 9
1

and be a part of the public discourse."

2

That raised some questions in my mind, particularly

3

in the wake of the recent events and his explanations for them

4

that may bear on his conditions of release.

5

question is:

6

And so my first

How exactly does he pursue his livelihood?

MR. ROGOW:

He consults with different business and

7

other political persons.

8

The other is he comments, obviously, and gets paid for his

9

commentary.

10

That is one of his kinds of work.

He speaks and gets paid for his speaking.

THE COURT:

All right.

So when he consults, he

11

consults on the subject of communications or public relations?

12

Is that his --

13

MR. ROGOW:

It could be.

It could be both.

14

THE COURT:

-- field of expertise?

15

All right.

Now, he told Pretrial Services Agency he

16

was employed at Drake Ventures, LLC.

17

the work for which he reported an income of $47,000 a month?

18

Is that the communications consulting?

19
20

23

MR. ROGOW:

That's -- as I understand it, yes, Your

THE COURT:

Okay.

MR. ROGOW:

I think it is, Your Honor.

Honor.

21
22

So what is the nature of

Now, I take it the LLC is his

company?
But I cannot

24

speak distinctly with that; I've not been prepared to address

25

that issue.

 10
1

THE COURT:

Do you know if he has any employees?

2

MR. ROGOW:

He may have an employee.

Again, these

3

are questions I'm happy to ask him on the witness stand.

4

intend to put Mr. Stone on for my questioning, for the

5

government's questioning, and for Your Honor's questioning.

6
7

THE COURT:

10

So as long as you understand

he's going to be subject to cross-examination.

8
9

All right.

I have a number of questions.

If you are saying to

me that you would like me to pose them directly to your client,
instead of to you, I will do that; he will be sworn.

11

MR. ROGOW:

I am saying that, Your Honor.

12

THE COURT:

All right.

13

You can call Mr. Stone to the

stand.

14
15

I

I may still have questions for you after, since you
entered your appearance in this case.

16

MR. ROGOW:

I understand, Your Honor.

17

THE COURT:

And I expect you to be able to answer my

All right.

You can call your client to the stand.

18
19

questions.

20

Understand that the United States will have the right to cross-

21

examine him in the scope of his direct.

22

MR. ROGOW:

I do.

23

THE COURT:

All right.

24
25

I do.

ROGER JASON STONE, JR.,
having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as

 11
1

follows:

2

MR. ROGOW:

Thank you.

3

THE COURT:

You may proceed.

4

MR. ROGOW:

May I remain?

5

I thought Your Honor was

going to ask the questions.

6

THE COURT:

7

You can start.
DIRECT EXAMINATION

8

BY MR. ROGOW:

9

Q.

Mr. Stone, you are the defendant in this criminal case, are

10

you not?

11

A.

Yes, I am.

12

Q.

Is this a serious matter for you?

13

A.

Yes, it is.

14

Q.

Does this matter threaten your liberty?

15

A.

Yes, it does.

16

Q.

Does it threaten your family?

17

A.

Yes, it does.

18

Q.

Are your wife and your daughter in the courtroom today?

19

A.

Yes, they are.

20

Q.

Mr. Stone, did you abuse the Judge's trust in you when you

21

posted the Instagram that has now become Exhibit 1?

22

A.

23

am grateful.

24

that I did not take to heart.

25

for which I am heartfully sorry.

Yes, I did.

Your Honor gave me a wide berth, for which I

She also gave me an admonition, which I regret
I believe I abused the order,
I am kicking myself over my

 12
1

own stupidity.

2

But not more than my wife is kicking me.

I offer no excuse for it, no justification.

I

3

believe it is the outgrowth of -- I believe the lapse of

4

judgment was the outgrowth of the extreme stress of the

5

situation.

6

been the subject of a seven-count criminal indictment; never

7

even had a speeding ticket.

8
9

I have been in political combat, but I have never

I'm being treated for emotional stress.
also say that I have acute financial stress.

I should

Your Honor,

10

the -- my consulting business has dried up and is virtually

11

nonexistent.

12

writing, book sales, and speeches.

13

savings.

14

So, I really make my living from speaking,
I have exhausted my

I am being treated for the emotional stress, per the

15

judge's order.

I don't offer any rationalization or excuse or

16

justification.

This is just a stupid lapse of judgment.

17

Q.

18

you mentioned something about a volunteer may have posted the

19

posting.

20

A.

21

didn't take into consideration the implications.

22

is my responsibility.

23

media firestorm.

24

apology is sincere and it is heartfelt.

25

stupid error, for which I apologize again to the Court.

Mr. Stone, in a posting that followed the original posting,

Is that accurate?

I did not select the image.

But I did not review it, and I

I regretted it.

The posting

There was an immediate

I took it down and I issued an apology.

My

This was an egregious,

 13
1

Q.

Do you understand that the posting could be viewed as a

2

threat to the Court?

3

A.

4

recognize the Celtic cross in the corner.

5

it.

6

because I wasn't thinking, and that's my own fault.

7

Q.

8

upon the integrity of the Court?

9

A.

I now realize that.

I didn't think.

That was not my intention.

I didn't

I just glanced at

So I can't rationalize my thinking

Do you understand that the text can be viewed as an attack

I recognize that.

I regret it.

It is, as I said -- again,

10

I think my bad judgment is borne on the -- from the emotional

11

stress of this situation.

12

It was an egregious mistake.

13

do it over again, but I cannot.

14

Q.

15

with the order that she had entered allowing you to speak

16

freely, how can we be assured that there will not be a

17

recurrence of something like this, or anything like this?

18

A.

19

initial order, because I do have to make a living.

20

sorry that I abused your trust.

21

THE COURT:

22

I would, obviously, wish I could

How could we be assured, Mr. Stone, if the Judge remains

First of all, I'm very grateful to Your Honor for the
And I am

I --

Is anybody paying you to speak about this

case?

23

THE DEFENDANT:

24

THE COURT:

25

I can only say I am sorry yet again.

No.

Okay.

So an order that you couldn't

speak about this case wouldn't affect your ability to make a

 14
1

living?

2

THE DEFENDANT:

3

THE COURT:

4

A.

5

let myself down.

6

down.

7

in judgment.

All right, continue.

I recognize that I let the Court down.
I let my family down.

I can only say that I'm sorry.

8
9

That is correct.

I let you down.

I let my attorneys

It was a momentary lapse

Perhaps I talk too much.

But, I am under enormous pressure.

I now have

television commentators talking about the likelihood that I

10

will be raped in prison if I am -- if I am convicted.

11

a stressful situation for me and my family.

12

honesty, I'm having trouble putting food on the table and

13

paying the rent.

14

use anything I raise for my legal defense for my personal

15

expenses.

16

I

This is

And in all

I've exhausted my little savings.

I cannot

That goes strictly for my attorneys.
Your Honor, I can only beseech you to give me a

17

second chance.

Forgive me the trespass.

I'm heartfully sorry.

18

This is a sincere apology.

19

orders scrupulously for the dignity and authority you deserve.

20

I am -- I hope you'll consider my plea because it is sincere

21

and heartfelt.

I will treat the Court and all your

22

THE COURT:

All right.

Mr. Rogow, do you --

23

MR. ROGOW:

Nothing further, Your Honor.

24

THE COURT:

-- have further questions?

25

All right.

Let me ask you a question, Mr. Stone.

 15
1

THE DEFENDANT:

2

THE COURT:

Yes, Your Honor.

The notice of apology said the post,

3

quote, was a random photo selected from the internet, posted at

4

my direction.

5

when just now you said, "I didn't select the image, I didn't

6

review it"?

7

What do you mean by, "posted at my direction"

THE DEFENDANT:

Well, I just said, Get a photo -- I

8

am responsible for the posting.

9

didn't review it properly; that was my fault.

10

a rationalization.

11

I just did not look at it.

I

I'm not offering

I'm taking responsibility for the action.

In all honesty, we wanted to get the apology to you

12

as quickly as possible.

13

I was at a doctor's appointment, the apology was read to me.

14

rushed home to sign it.

15

electronically.

16

THE COURT:

I recognized that I'd made an error.

And it was sent, I guess,

I'm just interested in this concept that

17

you don't see what gets posted on Roger J. Stone before Roger

18

J.

Stone posts it.

Is it --

19

THE DEFENDANT:

20

THE COURT:

21
22
23

I

No, I didn't say --

-- anybody else's Instagram account

besides yours?
THE DEFENDANT:

I'm not sure I understand your

question, Your Honor.

24

THE COURT:

It's your Instagram account.

25

THE DEFENDANT:

Yes.

I am responsible.

 16
1

THE COURT:

And it is fair to say that you are

2

100 percent responsible for anything that gets posted and it's

3

not anybody else's fault?

4

THE DEFENDANT:

That is correct.

I don't have any employees.

I take

5

responsibility.

6

volunteers helping because of my financial circumstances.

7

do a lot of the clerical work.

8

technologically proficient.

9

is my fault.

10

THE COURT:

11

THE DEFENDANT:

12

THE COURT:

13

I am, in all honesty, not very

But I accept responsibility.

Yes.

how to do a Google search?

15

THE COURT:

Yes.

How hard was it to come up with a

photograph that didn't have a crosshairs in the corner?
THE DEFENDANT:

Your Honor, I didn't recognize it as

18

a crosshairs.

19

was brought to my attention by a reporter.

20

It

Do the volunteers that work for you know

THE DEFENDANT:

17

They

Do you know how to do a Google search?

14

16

I do have

I thought it -- I didn't even notice it until it

THE COURT:

Well, and at that point you said, What

21

some say are crosshairs are in fact a logo of the organization

22

that originally posted it.

23
24
25

THE DEFENDANT:

Is that your explanation for that?
That's the truth, Your Honor.

I had

to go back and look at it.
THE COURT:

All right.

But being a logo and being

 17
1

crosshairs are not mutually exclusive, are they?

2
3

THE DEFENDANT:

supposed to be -- it's a Celtic symbol, as I understand it.

4
5
6
7

Well, but I think in this case it's

THE COURT:

Why are you now saying it's a Celtic

symbol?
THE DEFENDANT:

Because I researched it and that's

how it comes up.

8

THE COURT:

9

was actually an occult symbol?

10
11

Haven't you also said publicly that it

THE DEFENDANT:

THE COURT:

13

THE DEFENDANT:

15

It's

the same thing.

12

14

It's a Celtic occult symbol.

What does it mean?
I don't know, Your Honor.

I'm not

into the occult.
THE COURT:

And haven't you also said, on InfoWars,

16

on Tuesday, after you took the post down, that this whole set

17

of circumstances is just another example of the media making

18

you a target?

19
20

THE DEFENDANT:

Well, the media, just as in the

question --

21

THE COURT:

Excuse me.

22

(Pause.)

23

THE COURT:

24

Mr. Stone.

25

THE DEFENDANT:

All right.

I'm sorry.

I apologize, Your Honor.

 18
1

THE COURT:

You can answer the question.

2

THE DEFENDANT:

Yes.

As in the -- as an example of

3

your gag order, it was widely misreported almost immediately.

4

I think people read the headline but didn't read the specifics.

5

And it was misreported.

6

were crosshairs.

7

misrepresentation.

8

because I recognized it could be misinterpreted that way.

9
10
11

I honestly thought it was a
And I took it down.

THE COURT:
was improper.

I honestly did not believe that these

And I apologize

Well, according to the apology, the post

What was improper about it?

THE DEFENDANT:

My attorneys wrote that and I signed

12

it because it was improper for me to criticize at all; I

13

recognize that.

14

THE COURT:

Well, at the time I imposed the order

15

there were no restrictions on your talking about the case.

16

my questions to you are not about the fact that you criticized

17

the office of special counsel, that you criticized me, that you

18

criticized an opinion in the case that I had written earlier.

19

My question to you is what is it that you said was improper

20

when you told me it was improper.

21
22

THE DEFENDANT:

Again, I did not write that, I signed

it on the advice of counsel.

23

THE COURT:

24

THE DEFENDANT:

25

THE COURT:

So,

I would have --

Well, wait.
Yes.

You said to me, "I abused your trust."

 19
1

THE DEFENDANT:

2

THE COURT:

3

THE DEFENDANT:

4

THE COURT:

5

THE DEFENDANT:

6

THE COURT:

7

Yes.

"I'm heartfully sorry."
It was --

Let me finish my question.
I'm sorry.

"I'm kicking myself for my own

stupidity."

8

THE DEFENDANT:

9

THE COURT:

Yes.

"I have no excuse.

10

It was a lapse of judgment.

11

lapse of judgment that you regret?

12

THE DEFENDANT:

It was my stupidity.

I regretted it."

What was the

I shouldn't have posted any of it at

13

all.

It was a mistake for which I seriously apologize.

14

an egregious, stupid mistake.

15

THE COURT:

It was

Why is it consistent with how sorry you

16

were, when you sent the apology, to continue for the next two

17

days to speak publicly about the fact that you're being treated

18

unfairly in this situation as well, that it's really this

19

symbol, that it's really that symbol, it's the media going

20

after you.

21

you're deeply and sincerely sorry?

22

THE DEFENDANT:

How is that consistent with your telling me that

Because that was a reference to what

23

I believe was a media distortion of my intent.

24

not have a malicious intent, Your Honor.

25

THE COURT:

It was -- I did

Do you understand that what you did could

 20
1

have a malicious impact, notwithstanding your intent?

2

THE DEFENDANT:

That's why I abjectly apologized and

3

I have no rationalization or excuse.

4

justify it.

5
6

It was just an error.

THE COURT:

Does the Office of Special Counsel have

any questions they would like to ask the defendant?

7
8

I'm not seeking to

MR. KRAVIS:

Yes, Your Honor.

May I just have one

moment to confer with my colleagues?

9

THE COURT:

10

MR. KRAVIS:

11

Yes.
Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION

12

BY MR. KRAVIS:

13

Q.

Good afternoon, Mr. Stone.

14

A.

Yes, sir.

15

Q.

I would like to start by asking you a few questions about

16

the facts of this Instagram post that we have been discussing.

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

Who exactly posted this photo on your Instagram account?

19

A.

I did.

20

Q.

It was not a volunteer?

21

A.

No.

22

had to go back and look at it.

23

appropriately, as I said.

24
25

Initially I thought it was.

THE COURT:

I do many posts a day.

I didn't think about this

Excuse me.

Did you not just tell me,

under oath, less than five minutes ago, that someone else

I

 21
1

posted it?

2

THE DEFENDANT:

3

else selected the image.

4
5

THE COURT:

I said someone

You saw the image that was posted before

THE DEFENDANT:
inconsistent.

8
9

No, Your Honor.

it was posted?

6
7

No.

Yes, Your Honor.

I didn't choose the image.

THE COURT:

But that's not
I did post it.

Go ahead.

BY MR. KRAVIS:

10

Q.

So, Mr. Stone, to make sure I understand your testimony, it

11

was another person, a volunteer, who selected the image, is

12

that correct?

13

A.

That is correct.

14

Q.

And you saw the image before it was actually posted on the

15

Instagram account?

16

A.

17

potential implications of it.

18

Q.

Who picked this image?

19

A.

Well, nobody who works for me will live up to it, so I'm

20

uncertain.

21

Q.

So you don't know?

22

A.

I do not know.

23

Q.

How was the image conveyed to you by the person who

24

selected it?

25

A.

Yes, but I did not recognize the inappropriate -- or, the

It was emailed to me or text-messaged to me.

I'm not

 22
1

certain.

2

Q.

Who sent the email?

3

A.

I would have to go back and look.

4

don't know.

I don't recognize.

Somebody else uses my --

5

THE COURT:

6

THE DEFENDANT:

How big is your staff, Mr. Stone?
I don't have a staff, Your Honor.

7

have a few volunteers.

8

not the only one texting, because it is my account and,

9

therefore, it's registered to me.

10

the image.

11

my phone.

12

I

I also -- others use my phone, so I'm

So I'm uncertain how I got

I think it is conceivable that it was selected on
I believe that is the case, but I'm uncertain.
THE COURT:

So individuals, whom you cannot identify,

13

provide you with material to be posted on your personal

14

Instagram account and you post it, even if you don't know who

15

it came from?

16

I

THE DEFENDANT:

Everybody who works for me is a

17

volunteer.

My phone is used by numerous people because it can

18

only be posted to the person to whom it is registered.

19

THE COURT:

How large is your volunteer core?

20

THE DEFENDANT:

21

THE COURT:

I have five or six people.

And you're telling us that with all of

22

this attention that has been paid to this post, and the fact

23

that you're coming in here and testifying about it under oath,

24

and the fact that you say you received it electronically --

25

THE DEFENDANT:

Well, I think it was saved

 23
1

electronically.

2
3

THE COURT:

And you don't know who gave it to you to

post?

4

THE DEFENDANT:

5

THE COURT:

6

going to post this"?

But you saw it and you said, "Okay, I'm

7

THE DEFENDANT:

8

implications, as I said.

9

THE COURT:

10

going to post this"?

I do not, Your Honor.

I didn't really recognize the
It was thoughtless.

But you saw it and you said, "Okay, I'm

11

THE DEFENDANT:

12

THE COURT:

Yes.

It was an error, Your Honor.

Proceed.

13

BY MR. KRAVIS:

14

Q.

15

believed the photo was emailed or texted?

16

A.

17

I'm really not certain.

18

Q.

Did you save those e-mails or texts?

19

A.

Prob -- well, I'm not certain how it was transmitted.

20

may have been saved on my phone.

21

Instagram -- I'm banned on Twitter -- my cell phone is used

22

because I'm the only one registered.

23

saved on my phone and it would be posted.

24

honesty, how it was saved.

25

Mr. Stone, did I hear you say a moment ago that you

It was either emailed, texted, or just saved on my phone.

THE COURT:

It

When I post on Facebook or

So, the image would be
I don't know, in all

When you say, "My phone is used," who's

 24
1

the subject of that sentence?

2

helpful.

Who uses your phone to post?

3

THE DEFENDANT:

4

THE COURT:

5

They all have license to post on your

THE DEFENDANT:

If I have them doing shares on

Facebook or working on Instagram, yes, Your Honor.

8
9

All of the people who work for me.

Ins --

6
7

The passive voice is not

THE COURT:

All right.

BY MR. KRAVIS:

10

Q.

Have you gone back -- since the time that this post was put

11

up and taken down, have you gone back and asked the five or six

12

people who work for you --

13

A.

Who saved the images, and nobody will admit to it.

14

Q.

But you believe that you may have either the underlying

15

image --

16

A.

I --

17

Q.

Let me finish my question.

18

have either the underlying image saved to your phone or an

19

email or text message transmitting the image to you, is that

20

correct?

21

A.

22

because I did not want to make the same mistake twice.

23

Q.

How many images did you have?

24

A.

They gave me two or three.

25

Q.

What were the others?

It is possible.

You believe that you may still

I erased all the images of Your Honor

 25
1

A.

I don't recall.

2

THE COURT:

3

THE DEFENDANT:

4

You had a choice?
It was random.

It was an error, Your

Honor.

5

THE COURT:

Okay.

I'm just trying to get to the

6

facts here.

We started with somebody else did it and you

7

didn't see it.

8

posted it."

9

than one image and you chose this one, is that correct?

Then it was, "No, somebody else found it, but I

Now you're telling me somebody else found more

10

THE DEFENDANT:

11

THE COURT:

12

THE DEFENDANT:

13

day.

14

Just randomly, yes, Your Honor.

You closed your eyes and picked?
No, I just -- I do ten of these a

I'm -- I'm trying to struggle with the situation.
THE COURT:

Randomly does not involve the application

15

of human intelligence.

You looked at multiple pictures and you

16

chose one, is that correct --

17

THE DEFENDANT:

18

THE COURT:

19

THE DEFENDANT:

20

THE COURT:

21

BY MR. KRAVIS:

22

Q.

23

you're referring to?

24

A.

25

go back and look.

Yes, but --

-- or not correct?
That is correct.

All right.

Ask your next question.

What are the names of the five or six volunteers that

I would -- Jacob Engles, Enrique Tarrio.

I would have to

I've had an influx of people helping me

 26
1

since my indictment.

2

Q.

3

went back and asked these people and have they all denied --

4

A.

5

from?

6

Q.

7

or fashion, with multiple photographs of the judge, and you

8

selected the one that went on the post, is that correct?

9

A.

That is correct.

10

Q.

How about the text of the post?

11

A.

I wrote that.

12

Q.

The hashtag "fixisin," you wrote that?

13

A.

Yes, I did.

14

Q.

And the phrase "Obama-appointed judge," you wrote that,

15

too?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

Now, Mr. Stone, you've described earlier -- oh, I'm sorry.

18

How -- what device was used to post this message on Instagram?

19

Was it your phone --

20

A.

My cell phone.

21

Q.

-- or other device?

22

A.

My cell phone.

23

possession of the FBI.

24

Q.

25

volunteer who had access to your phone who put the images on

And your testimony is that since the time of this post you

I said, Who got me the photo?

Where did the photos come

And nobody will own up to it.

But your testimony is that you were provided, in some form

Who wrote that?

Yes, I did.

Because all my other devices are in the

And so your testimony is that there may have been another

 27
1

there and you selected from them, to use the phone to post the

2

message on Instagram?

3

A.

I'm sorry.

4

Q.

Your testimony is that someone else may have used your

5

phone to obtain the images --

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

-- and then you used the same device to post the message on

8

Instagram?

9

A.

Yes.

Ask the question again, please.

Yes.

Yes.

I do not exclusively use my own phone.

That's

10

what I'm saying.

11

Q.

12

characterize the post here as a lapse in judgment.

13

that correct?

14

A.

That is correct.

15

Q.

But what we're talking about here, it wasn't just one

16

isolated incident, was it?

17

A.

I'm not sure what you refer to.

18

Q.

On the same day of this post, after the post went up and

19

came down, you did an interview with a program called InfoWars.

20

Do I have that correct?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

And in that interview, you repeated the phrase Obama-

23

pointed judge, right?

24

A.

Yes, I did.

25

Q.

And in the interview you again referenced the Paul Manafort

Now, Mr. Stone, a moment ago I think I heard you
Do I have

Yes.

 28
1

case?

2

A.

I'm not certain.

3

Q.

And in that interview you again referenced, what you called

4

in the post, the Benghazi charges against Hillary Clinton?

5

used that phrase in the InfoWars interview again?

6

A.

It is likely, but I do not recall.

7

Q.

And the InfoWars interview was not the only interview you

8

gave in the time after the Instagram post, is that right?

9

A.

I don't recall another interview.

10

Q.

You gave an interview with CBS News, is that right?

11

A.

I did not.

12

Q.

Did you make a statement to CBS News?

13

A.

I put a statement out on my Instagram feed in which I tried

14

to explain the circumstances as I saw them.

15

Q.

16

the post were within your rights and factual?

17

A.

18

part.

19

Q.

20

that you took down the -- you took down the post only because

21

the photograph was open to misinterpretation?

22

A.

I don't recall.

23

Q.

Did you give an interview or make a statement to the Daily

24

Mail?

25

A.

You

Did you make a statement to CBS News that the statements in

I don't believe I said the first part.

Perhaps the second

Did you give a statement to the Washington Post that said

I did not.

 29
1

Q.

In total, between the time that that Instagram post went up

2

and this hearing, how many statements have you made to media

3

organizations about the Instagram post?

4

A.

I'm aware of no others.

5

MR. KRAVIS:

6

THE COURT:

7

MR. KRAVIS:

8

THE COURT:

9

May I have just a moment, Your Honor?
Yes.
Thank you.
I do just want to confirm, Mr. Stone,

that in your --

10

THE DEFENDANT:

11

THE COURT:

12

Your Honor, may I pour some water?

Absolutely.

There should be some in

there.

13

THE DEFENDANT:

14

THE COURT:

Thank you, Your Honor.

Did you, in fact, during the InfoWars

15

interview, after you took the post down, state that this whole

16

set of circumstances was just an example of the media making

17

you a target?

18

THE DEFENDANT:

Well, I felt the media was falsely

19

saying that I was posing a danger, which was not my intention.

20

And this was not a crosshair from -- in my opinion.

21

not want to be blamed for something that was not my intention.

22

I had no malicious intention.

23

explained the circumstances as -- I explained my lapse in

24

judgment and what cased it.

25

THE COURT:

And I did

The words were poorly chosen.

I'm just saying, asking you:

Did you

I

 30
1

tell InfoWars that this whole dispute over what had happened

2

with the post and all the attention that had been drawn to the

3

post was just another example of the media making you a target?

4

That's very different than saying, "It was a terrible, horrible

5

lapse of judgment for which I'm deeply sorry."

6

know if you said that, as has been reported publicly, during

7

your InfoWars interview.

8

THE DEFENDANT:

9

misinterpretation of my intention.

So I want to

What I said was I thought it was a
Nobody wanted to know -- I

10

was allowed no opportunity to defend myself.

11

immediately assumed that this was a crosshair, which I did not

12

believe it is.

13

Look, I regret the entire thing.

14

error.

I did not have a malicious intent.

15

intention.

16

latitude you gave me.

It was inappropriate.

17

THE COURT:

18

THE DEFENDANT:

19

THE COURT:

20

It was just an
That was not my

I realize it abused the

Can you just answer.
Yes.

It was just

I've --

Yes.

I've heard you say that and I'm going to

take everything you say into consideration --

21

THE DEFENDANT:

Okay.

Thank you, Your Honor.

22

THE COURT:

23

my specific question, which is:

24

on InfoWars that this was just another example of the media

25

making you a target?

-- but I would really like an answer to
Did you say in the interview

 31
1

THE DEFENDANT:

2

THE COURT:

3

THE DEFENDANT:

4

THE COURT:

5

THE DEFENDANT:

Yes, because I didn't feel --

That's a yes?
Yes, Your Honor.

All right.

Yes.

Go ahead.

Thank you.

6

BY MR. KRAVIS:

7

Q.

8

phone.

9

time you posted the message to Instagram?

Mr. Stone, I just have a few final questions about this
Who was with you, in your physical proximity, at the

10

A.

I would think so, yes.

11

Q.

Who?

12

A.

I don't recall.

13

it.

14

Q.

15

your phone?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

Who?

18

A.

Multiple people.

19

Q.

Name them.

20

A.

Let's see.

21

I really don't -- I'm not certain.

22

is a -- like a headquarters.

Was anyone?

I would have to go back and think about

On the day of your Instagram post, did you give anyone else

At some point Jacob Engles, I believe, had it.

23

THE COURT:

24

THE DEFENDANT:

25

THE COURT:

I'm sorry.

I -- my house

I have many volunteers.

I thought you said you had five.
Five is a lot.

Okay.

I just want to make sure that I

 32
1

understood.

2

THE DEFENDANT:

3

THE COURT:

Five is a lot for coming and going.

All right.

4

BY MR. KRAVIS:

5

Q.

6

and password information?

7

A.

Yes, I believe so.

8

Q.

Who?

9

A.

Mr. Engles.

10

Q.

Is Mr. Engles the only person?

11

A.

He's the only one that I'm certain of.

12

Q.

What other social media accounts do you use besides

13

Instagram?

14

A.

Just Facebook.

15

Q.

Does anyone else have your login on Facebook?

16

A.

I'm uncertain.

17

Q.

Mr. Stone, you've mentioned a couple of times now the five

18

or six volunteers, but I've only heard two names.

19

us the list of the five or six volunteers?

20

A.

21

and go.

22

some posting for me, mostly on Facebook.

23

recall the others.

24

Q.

25

a post from four days ago.

Mr. Stone, finally, does anyone have your Instagram login

Or is there someone else?

I have Raymond Peres -- I can't really recall.
They're all part of the same group.

Can you give

People come

Tyler White does

I'm sorry, I don't

It's a revolving situation.

You say it's a revolving situation, but we're talking about
What was the list as of four days

 33
1

ago?

2

A.

I've given you the names that I recall.

3

Q.

You're saying there are other names that you don't recall?

4

A.

I have had -- I would have to go back and examine -- I

5

mean, it has been a whirlwind, sir.

6

and examine it.

7

try to reconstruct it.

8

Q.

9

all of the volunteers --

I would have to go back

I would have to think about who was there and

So as you sit here today you cannot remember the names of

10

A.

Everybody who's --

11

Q.

Let me finish the question.

12

of all the volunteers who were working for you four days ago?

13

A.

Correct.

14

Q.

You cannot remember the names of all the people who had

15

access to your cell phone four days ago?

16

A.

You cannot remember the names

Correct.

17

MR. KRAVIS:

18

THE COURT:

19

I have no further questions.
All right.

Any redirect?

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

20

BY MR. ROGOW:

21

Q.

22

mistake that you made?

23

A.

24

Not -- pardon me.

25

reporter who said, "Why is there a crosshairs in the photo of

Mr. Stone, when did you realize that this was a terrible

After I got a text message from a Daily Caller reporter.
That's incorrect.

From a Daily News

 34
1

the judge that you posted?"

And I didn't know what he was

2

talking about.

3

not what that is, because I didn't believe it is what it is --

4

was.

5

Q.

6

look and you saw what appeared?

7

A.

8

misunderstanding, then I ordered it taken down.

9

Q.

And why did you order it taken down?

10

A.

Because I realized it was a stupid mistake and it was

11

abusing the judge's order.

12

Q.

13

earlier:

14

that something like this will not happen again?

15

A.

16

in my actions.

17

obviously recognize that I'll be held responsible.

18

personal apology.

19

is sincere.

I had to go back and look.

And I said that's

And what did you do once you got that call and you got that

First, I asked that it be cropped so there be no

So I come back to a question that I think I asked you
What assurance can you give the Court, or any of us,

I can only beseech Your Honor that I will be more judicious
I will understand the order better.

I
I owe you a

I've given you that, it's heartfelt and it

This was a screw-up.

I admit it.

20

MR. ROGOW:

Nothing further, Your Honor.

21

THE COURT:

Is it your position that he violated

22

either the order that was in place or the conditions of his

23

release?

24

MR. ROGOW:

No.

25

THE COURT:

What is your position on whether the

 35
1

conditions of his release need to be modified?

2

MR. ROGOW:

They do not need to be modified, Your

3

Honor.

4

probation reports which have been filed with this Court show

5

that he has assiduously followed all the restraints imposed by

6

probation.

7

caused him, and all of us, the concern that brings us to the

8

court this morning -- this afternoon.

9

He has met all the probation requirements.

The

This is the only thing that has come up that has

THE COURT:

And what would you say to me the answer

10

to the question is about why I should be assured that incidents

11

like this would not happen in the future?

12

MR. ROGOW:

Sometimes a person gets a lesson, a

13

lesson that is very hard, especially a person who is used to

14

talking, who sometimes is unrestrained in his talking.

15

lesson sometimes learned is a lesson that can be learned in the

16

future.

17

And a

Obviously, Your Honor has power, if he violates the

18

concept here today that we're talking about, to take further

19

action.

20

continue speaking, be allowed to remain under this Court's

21

order, with the warnings that this Court had.

22

that's an important aspect of this.

23

really, what he's asking for is a second chance to conform to

24

what he should have conformed to from the very beginning.

25

But what we're asking is, is that he be allowed to

And I think that

He was warned.

And so,

There's no question -- you've heard him say it, you

 36
1

hear me say it, you saw the notice of apology -- it was

2

completely inappropriate.

3

not even close.

4

it's indefensible.

It should not have been done.

It is indefensible.

That's the simple part,

5

THE COURT:

I agree with you there.

6

All right.

Let me hear from the government.

7

You may step down, Mr. Stone.

8

THE DEFENDANT:

9

THE COURT:

10

Thank you, Your Honor.

I just want to make sure you've had the

opportunity to say everything you want to say on this subject.

11

THE DEFENDANT:

12

THE COURT:

13

Do you have a position on what steps, if any, I

14

It's

Yes, Your Honor.

Thank you.

All right.

should take at this time?

15

MR. KRAVIS:

Your Honor, the government believes that

16

the facts of this case do warrant a further restriction on the

17

extrajudicial statements of the parties pursuant to Local

18

Criminal Rule 57.7(c).

19

Not a week ago the Court entered a very narrowly

20

tailored order that had very limited restrictions on those

21

extrajudicial statements, and a few days later here we are.

22

The government believes that in light of the facts that have

23

developed over the last few days, that those facts do support a

24

further restriction on the extrajudicial statements of the

25

parties.

And I would like to briefly just make a few points

 37
1
2

about those facts.
The first is that we're not just talking here about

3

the photograph; there is also the text that accompanied the

4

Instagram post.

5

integrity of this proceeding and this forum.

6

defendant, even after he removed the post, continued to amplify

7

that message in the media by giving interviews, including the

8

interview to InfoWars, the statement to CBS News, the

9

statements to other media outlets to continue to amplify -- to

And that text amounted to an attack on the
And the

10

continue to amplify that message.

11

the Court in United States versus Brown referred to as, quote,

12

a desire to manipulate media coverage to gain favorable

13

attention, unquote, thereby threatening to taint the jury pool.

14

That conduct amounts to what

The defendant, even after the Instagram post was

15

taken down, continued to give interviews where he reiterated

16

the statements that appeared in the text of the message.

17

gave varying accounts of who was responsible for the post, what

18

the symbol meant, where it came from, so on and so forth.

19

every time the defendant gave another one of those interviews,

20

he continued to amplify the media coverage and increase the

21

risk -- increase the risk to the jury pool.

22

He

And

I would submit that the defendant's testimony at this

23

hearing was not credible.

I believe that the defendant's

24

testimony, that he -- and I wrote down the quotations:

25

committed a lapse in judgment, that he was sorry, that he

That he

 38
1

regretted it, are belied by the facts that the defendant

2

himself testified to, which were that even after he supposedly

3

realized that the post was a mistake, he continued to give

4

interviews where he used the same phrases and put out the same

5

message, and continued to make statements to the media that

6

would amplify and continue to draw attention to that message.

7

Because the defendant's testimony at this hearing

8

about his -- about his conduct was not credible, and because

9

the defendant's conduct over the last few days has shown a

10

desire to manipulate media coverage to amplify public attention

11

to the messages that he is putting out, that run a risk of

12

tainting the jury pool, the government believes that those

13

facts would support a further restriction on extrajudicial

14

statements of the parties in this case.

15

THE COURT:

All right.

Looking at the Bail Reform

16

Act, however, under 18 U.S.C. Section 3142(g), when I'm

17

considering imposing conditions on someone's release, I'm

18

supposed to consider the available information concerning the

19

nature and circumstances of the charged offenses, the weight of

20

the evidence against the defendant, the history and

21

characteristics of the defendant, and the nature and

22

seriousness of the danger to any person or to the community

23

that would be posed by the defendant's release, or release

24

without certain conditions.

25

Is there anything you would like to bring to my

 39
1

attention in that regard, assuming that I would be considering

2

making any restrictions on speech a condition of his release?

3

MR. KRAVIS:

Your Honor, the facts that I would bring

4

to the Court's attention are the facts and circumstances

5

surrounding the content of the post, in that whatever the

6

defendant's testimony about his subjective intentions may have

7

been, the result of his conduct was the wide dissemination of

8

an image that could be construed, could reasonably be construed

9

by people as a threatening image, and that introduces a new

10

threat of -- a new threat of taint to the -- taint to the jury

11

pool.

12

And because the conduct we're talking about now,

13

because the message we're talking about now are not just

14

messages about proclaiming innocence or articulating a defense,

15

but are messages that could be construed as threatening, the

16

government believes that the restriction on extrajudicial

17

statements would be appropriate under the Bail Reform Act.

18

to be clear, the government also believes that those

19

restrictions would be consistent with the First Amendment under

20

the Supreme Court's decision in Gentile and the cases that we

21

cited in our filing, applying Gentile to restrictions on

22

parties, as opposed to just attorneys.

23

THE COURT:

24

MR. KRAVIS:

25

THE COURT:

All right.

But

Thank you.

Thank you, Your Honor.
Mr. Rogow, is there anything you want to

 40
1

say about the factors that I just listed that apply under 18

2

U.S. Code Section 3142(g).

3

MR. ROGOW:

Your Honor, I think that using 3146 as

4

the vehicle for further restraining him would not be

5

appropriate.

6

interpreted in a fashion, as the government has interpreted

7

them, to call for some further restraint on him.

8

the jury pool argument, for example, I don't think is a

9

credible argument, now that we're months away from a jury

I understand that there are factors that can be

But, I think

10

trial.

And I think that this one incident, with all of the

11

attention that it's gotten, has served the purpose of letting

12

everybody know that this kind of conduct is not defensible

13

conduct anywhere.

14

THE COURT:

In your original pleading you told me,

15

Don't worry, the attention to the original arrest and the

16

search warrant is going to subside.

17

insisted that his name be in the paper every single day since

18

then.

19

media attention is going to subside?

And he has, he has

So what possible basis would I have to conclude that the

20

MR. ROGOW:

I don't think media attention will

21

subside.

22

the -- his arrest and the invasion of his home by the police

23

officers to arrest him, the FBI.

24

about then, because that was what was pertinent at the moment.

25

I was talking about that specific event, in terms of

THE COURT:

That's all I was talking

No, you specifically said that I don't

 41
1

have to worry about the jury pool being tainted because the

2

trial is a long time away, and there's been a rush of publicity

3

at the start, but it's going to subside.

4

something publicly about every single one of those topics,

5

every single day thereafter.

6

forecast be believable?

7
8

MR. ROGOW:

And then he said

So on what basis would that

It would be believable now, given that

he's brought before the Court --

9

THE COURT:

10

every single day.

11

than a court order?

After he apologized, he continued talking

So what will get him to stop talking, other

12

MR. ROGOW:

You and me telling him no more talking --

13

THE COURT:

I'm the court order.

14

MR. ROGOW:

Well, yes, but in a limited way.

15

no question --

16
17

THE COURT:

How would you craft an order that he

would find clear enough to follow?

18

MR. ROGOW:

Will you give me some time to do it, Your

19

Honor?

20

what -- he should not be talking about this Court.

21

not be talking about the special prosecutor.

22

impugning the integrity of the Court.

23

done.

24
25

There's

Because it can be done.

It can be done by refining
He should

He should not be

That's what should be

That's the nature of the order that I'm suggesting.
There are a lot of reasons why somebody may feel like

they should be talking about things like that.

But you and I

 42
1

know, as officers of the court, judge of the court, this is not

2

appropriate.

3

what I ask the Court to do.

4

something, then that is what should be crafted.

5
6

If the Court is intent on crafting

The press will talk about all kinds of things all the
time.

7
8

And that, if we're going to have an order, that's

I mean, there's no question that they -THE COURT:

I'm not trying to impose an order on the

MR. ROGOW:

I understand.

press.

9

But they are interested in

10

him, they're interested in this case.

11

is -- and that's what prompted -- I mean, it was outrageous to

12

see that picture, to see that text.

13

that's why, within hours, Your Honor had that apology on her

14

desk.

15

And what I'm saying

It was outrageous.

And

What I'm saying is if Your Honor is asking me to

16

craft an order, then that is what the order should say:

17

Court should not be criticized by Mr. Stone.

18

should not be impugned by Mr. Stone.

19

case should not be impugned by Mr. Stone.

20

case at the trial.

21

that is the kind of nature of an order that I would suggest the

22

Court should craft that would address the specific needs that

23

we're talking about.

24

THE COURT:

25

The government

The integrity of this
We will defend this

That's the time to defend this case.

All right.

This

And

I'm going to take a break to

try to absorb this, but I'm going to come back and rule.

 43
1
2

You can all remain seated.
back in 15 minutes.

Thank you.

3

MR. ROGOW:

4

(Recess.)

5

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:

6

I expect that I will be

Thank you, Your Honor.

Your Honor, recalling criminal

case No. 19-18, United States of America v. Roger Stone, Jr.

7

THE COURT:

All right.

Under the Bail Reform Act, 18

8

U.S. Code Section 3142(c), If the judicial officer determines

9

that release on personal recognizance or with an unsecured

10

appearance bond will not reasonably ensure the appearance of

11

the person as required -- which isn't an issue here -- or will

12

endanger the safety of any other person or the community, such

13

judicial officer shall order the pretrial release of the

14

person:

15

commit a federal, state, or local crime, and subject to the

16

least restrictive further condition, or combination of

17

conditions, that the judge determines will reasonably assure

18

the appearance of the person and the safety of any other person

19

and the community.

20

(A), subject to the condition that the person not

Those conditions can include any of 13 possible

21

conditions listed.

Among them are restrictions on

22

associations, which has First Amendment implications;

23

restrictions on contacts with witnesses, which has First

24

Amendment implications, and, also; (xiv) says the judge may

25

include an order that he satisfy any other condition that is

 44
1

reasonably necessary to assure the safety of any other person

2

and the community.

3

Under Section 3142(g), in determining whether there

4

are conditions that will reasonably assure the safety of other

5

persons or the community, I'm supposed to take into account a

6

number of things, including the nature and circumstances of the

7

charged offenses, the weight of the evidence against the

8

defendant, the history and characteristics of the defendant,

9

and the nature and seriousness of the danger to any person, or

10

to the community, that would be posed by the defendant's

11

release.

12

In connection with that assessment, you can't

13

overlook the fact that this indictment does not charge the

14

defendant with financial or regulatory irregularities in

15

connection with some business deal a long time ago.

16

even limited to the allegations that he lied to the

17

United States Congress.

18

threatening witnesses, within the past year.

19

It's not

It specifically charges him with

Now, it's true those allegations have yet to be

20

proven.

But for purposes of Section 3142, the evidence

21

detailed in the indictment alone is quite compelling.

22

evidence of the past few days indicates that this defendant has

23

not been chastened by the pendency of those charges, and that

24

in connection with this matter, he has decided to pursue a

25

strategy of attacking others.

And the

 45
1

Let me be clear, at the time of his post he was

2

permitted to criticize the special counsel, the designation of

3

the cases related, and the previous decisions of the judge to

4

whom the case had been assigned.

5

defense suggestion that Mr. Stone is just all talk and no

6

action and this was just a big mistake.

7

But I am not reassured by the

What concerns me is the fact that he chose to use his

8

public platform, and chose to express himself in a manner that

9

can incite others who may feel less constrained.

The approach

10

he chose posed a very real risk that others with extreme views

11

and violent inclinations would be inflamed.

12

read the paper beyond today to know that that's a possibility.

13

You don't have to

And these were, let there be no mistake, deliberate

14

choices.

15

explanations credible.

16

straight on the stand, much less from one day to another.

17

There is some inconsistency in his telling me on the one hand

18

that these public communications are an existential endeavor,

19

essential not only to his income but his very identity, and

20

then, on the other hand, telling us, It wasn't me.

21

I do not find any of the evolving and contradictory
Mr. Stone could not even keep his story

There was no discernible purpose to be served by

22

including any photograph in the post, if the full object of the

23

communication was to challenge the Office of Special Counsel's

24

related case filing, or to take issue with the Court's record

25

in a previous matter, or to solicit donations to a defense

 46
1
2

fund.
But more to the point, the picture that was picked

3

was not selected randomly.

4

important to convey some message, a Google search brings up

5

many unaltered photographs.

6

can be found on the Court's website.

7

If the Judge's appearance alone was

And a perfectly neutral photograph

The defendant himself told me he had more than one to

8

choose from.

And so what he chose, particularly when paired

9

with the sorts of incendiary comments included in the text, the

10

comments that not only can lead to disrespect for the

11

judiciary, but threats on the judiciary, the post had a more

12

sinister message.

13

has made communication his forté, his raison d'être, his life's

14

work, Roger Stone fully understands the power of words and the

15

power of symbols.

16

crosshairs.

As a man who, according to his own account,

And there's nothing ambiguous about

17

And while, yes, it was appropriate that the post was

18

replaced, in the world of social media there really is no such

19

thing as a take-back.

20

defendant understands well that once you put something out

21

there, it's out there.

22

other individuals who have propagated incendiary allegations

23

have, quote, unquote, apologized for them, they have remained

24

in the public domain and consciousness and they have been

25

repeated and disseminated by others and they have inspired

Given the business he's in, the

He's undoubtedly aware that even after

 47
1

violent reactions.

2

Defendant tells me this was a momentary lapse in

3

judgment, an egregious mistake.

4

stupid.

5

possibly pose a problem, and I apologized right away.

6

true, yes, he signed the apology his lawyers wrote that day.

7

I can't believe I was so

Took it down the instant it dawned on me it could
And it's

But he, admittedly, continued to adamantly defend the

8

post, even after he took it down, thereby enhancing the risk

9

that it would appeal to and stoke the passions of an angry

10

crowd, and demonstrating to me that it was the lawyers and not

11

Mr. Stone who were appalled.

12

rings quite hollow.

13

So thank you, but the apology

Now, the context of this behavior is important when

14

considering what to do about it.

15

overwrought inaccurate news accounts that followed my order

16

last Friday, the order I imposed only prohibited lawyers from

17

making public statements about the case.

18

order on the defendant, or the witnesses, restricting them from

19

making public statements about the case.

20

exception of a ban on pronouncements from the courthouse steps

21

and a gentle reminder that contacting witnesses and threats

22

fell outside the range of permissible speech in this case.

23

Notwithstanding the

I did not impose an

With the very limited

And, as he noted, I then accorded the defendant some

24

respect.

I gave him the chance to demonstrate that he

25

recognized the seriousness of these proceedings and the need

 48
1

for them to proceed fairly and unimpeded.

2

himself acknowledged this, stating publicly in an email that I

3

believe he sent to Politico.com:

4

order leaves my First Amendment right to defend myself in

5

public intact.

6

about my comments regarding the case.

7
8

The defendant

I am pleased that the Judge's

I will, of course, continue to be judicious

That didn't last three days.

The privilege, the

liberty he was afforded was promptly abused.

9

You were right about that, Mr. Stone.

10

If the conduct of the past weekend is what Mr. Stone

11

would call judicious, it would be foolhardy for the Court to

12

take no action and wait around to see what injudicious looks

13

like.

14

For all these reasons, then, I find, pursuant to 18

15

U.S. Code Section 3142(c)(1), based on this record and the

16

Instagram post that will be entered under seal as part of the

17

record, that released under the current set of conditions

18

without modification does pose a danger to the safety of other

19

persons associated with this case or the community.

20

In addition, as the case law set forth in the

21

February 15 media communications order, at docket 36, explains,

22

I have a number of duties and responsibilities.

23

duty -- notwithstanding any steps that defendant takes to

24

frustrate this goal -- to preserve his right to a fair trial by

25

an impartial jury.

I have the

 49
1

The publicity generated by the defendant's own

2

actions had precisely the effect I warned him about.

3

attempt to stoke up his followers also stoked up those who

4

disagree with his views.

5

would be the subject of a story, he provoked a series of

6

unflattering posts and comments in response to those stories.

7

The

And by continuing to ensure that he

When the defense asked me not to impose any

8

restrictions on the defendant, it assured me, on page 7 of its

9

submission, that, quote, the first wave of publicity, close

10

quote, considering the indictment and the execution of the

11

search warrant, quote, will subside, close quote.

12

Court's ability to seat a fair jury will not be compromised by

13

the press or by Mr. Stone.

14

And that the

That turned out quickly to be a highly inaccurate

15

prediction.

16

defendant out there fanning the flames.

17

law cited in my order also makes it clear that the

18

responsibility lies with me in the first instance to craft

19

appropriate rules to ensure that the trial does not devolve

20

into a circus.

21

The publicity cannot possibly subside if it's the
The Supreme Court case

The Gentile case and cases cited by the Office of

22

Special Counsel in its submission support the Court's ability

23

to impose restrictions on all participants, not just attorneys.

24

And the Supreme Court and the D.C. Circuit have also emphasized

25

the Court's responsibility.

It notes that order and decorum

 50
1

and dignity are not just old fashioned pleasantries, they're

2

fundamental to the fair administration of justice, which enures

3

to the benefit of everyone, including the defendant.

4

my responsibility to uphold that order.

5

sure that the people who work in this building, the people who

6

need to access the building for their own cases, and

7

prosecutors, jurors, witnesses, parties -- and, yes, judges --

8

can come and go from this building safely.

9

And it's

And it includes making

So, no, Mr. Stone, I am not giving you another

10

chance.

I have serious doubts about whether you've learned any

11

lesson at all.

12

pretrial release are hereby modified to include the condition

13

that, and the February 15th, 2019 media communications order is

14

hereby modified to provide that, from this moment on, the

15

defendant may not speak publicly about the investigation or the

16

case or any of the participants in the investigation or the

17

case.

Therefore, the conditions of the defendant's

Period.

18

The prohibition includes, but is not limited to, no

19

statements about the case during radio broadcasts of his own.

20

No statements about the case during interviews on TV, on the

21

radio, with print reporters or on internet-based media.

22

press releases or press conferences.

23

the editor.

24

or any other form of social media.

25

comment publicly about the case indirectly, by having

No

No blogs or letters to

No posts on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat
And the defendant may not

 51
1

statements made on his behalf by surrogates, family members,

2

spokespersons, representatives, or his, quote, many volunteers,

3

close quote.

4

You may send out as many emails, Tweets, posts as you

5

choose that say, Please donate to the Roger Stone defense fund

6

to help me defend myself against these charges.

7

add that you deny or are innocent of the charges, but that's

8

the extent of it.

9

there they are.

10

And you may

You apparently need clear boundaries, so

Please note that I am not prohibiting you from being

11

part of the public discourse or from earning a living.

12

told me yourself that you will not lose a cent of income if I

13

bar you from speaking about this case.

14

publish, to write, and to speak, and to be, as your lawyer put

15

it, a voice about any other matter of public interest; not this

16

case, not the people in it.

17

supervision.

18

You

You may continue to

Not while you're under my

Under U.S. Code Section 3142(c)(1) and (3), I find

19

that this additional condition is necessary and that it is the

20

least restrictive means possible to reasonably assure the

21

safety of persons associated with the case and the community.

22

I also find that the order is supported by all the reasons and

23

authority set out in my original media communication order.

24
25

Under Local Rule 57.7(c), I find that extrajudicial
statements by the defendant are likely to interfere with his

 52
1

right to have a fair trial by an impartial jury.

2

find, based on this record, that additional public comments

3

about the case by this defendant pose a substantial risk of

4

material prejudice to the case and the due administration of

5

justice.

6

And I further

I agree with the special counsel that the effect and

7

very likely the intent of the post was to denigrate this

8

process and taint the jury pool.

9

What all this means, Mr. Stone, is that any violation

10

of this order will be a basis for revoking your bond and

11

detaining you pending trial.

12

gave you a second chance.

13

will not be a third chance.

14

not comply with today's orders, I will find it necessary to

15

adjust your environment so that you don't have access to the

16

temptations posed by cameras, phones, computers and

17

microphones.

18

So I want to be clear, today I

But this is not baseball.

There

If you cannot or will not or do

I fully recognize that you have, as you've

19

emphasized, the right to defend yourself.

But the charges are

20

not pending out there; they're pending in here.

21

that the government turned over a large volume of material, a

22

huge volume of material to the defense team, and there's a

23

considerable amount to review and it's going to take a lot of

24

effort.

25

fundamental to defending yourself.

I was told

Engaging with your lawyers in that effort is
So there's plenty of that

 53
1

that you can do.

2

motions and a trial date at the next status conference and that

3

should help you focus your attention on activities that do not

4

run afoul of my order.

5
6

Is there anything else I need to take up today on
behalf of the government?

7
8

I will set a schedule for the filing of

MR. KRAVIS:

Nothing from the government, Your Honor.

Thank you.

9

THE COURT:

Anything further on behalf of the

11

MR. ROGOW:

Nothing, Your Honor.

12

THE COURT:

Okay.

10

13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

defendant?

*

Thank you very much.
*

*

 54
1
2

CERTIFICATE OF OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

3
4
5

I, JANICE DICKMAN, do hereby certify that the above

6

and foregoing constitutes a true and accurate transcript of my

7

stenograph notes and is a full, true and complete transcript of

8

the proceedings to the best of my ability.

9

Dated this 21st day of February 2019

10
11
12

/s/________________________

13

Janice E. Dickman, CRR, RMR, CRC
Official Court Reporter
Room 6523
333 Constitution Avenue NW
Washington, D.C. 20001

14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25