January 16, 2017
Dehcho Process MSR Report to Premier McLeod and Minister
Bennett
Overview:
Over the period August 2016 to mid-January 2017, I visited all but one
of the Dehcho First Nation communities that are still party to the
Dehcho Process negotiations1. I met separately with the Fort Providence
Metis and jointly with the Metis and DFN communites in Fort Simpson.
At their request, I also met with the Katl’odeeche First Nation in their
community just outside Hay River. In addition, I attended two sessions
with the DFN and Metis leadership and had several one on one
conversations with the Grand Chief.
Some community meetings were well attended. At others, the
attendance was sparse. Moreover, it was clear that those who did attend
did not always have a firm grasp or detailed knowledge of the issues,
much less of the state of play in the negotiations. In most communities,
attendees raised some issues that are not directly germane to the
negotiations and, as a general rule, community elders tended to
dominate the discussions even when there were younger people in
attendance (which was not always the case). One older person
remarked to me privately that it was important for the elders to be
heard because they feared that the younger generation was only
interested in money.
The discussion with the Katl’odeeche Chief and elders focused on their
take on the history of the file. The bottom line of their message was that
they were prepared to return to the fold in the negotiating process if
they could retain their status as a reserve and be granted selfgovernment. I was subsequently advised by the Grand Chief that if the
KFN retained their status as a reserve, it would make it impossible for
them to be part of the Dehcho First Nation negotiation because there
would then be two categories of people…”the haves and the have-nots”.

Weather prevented my getting to Wrigley but a sizeable delegation subsequently
came to Fort Simpson to meet with me.
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 While there were certainly some common themes that emerged, there
were also differences of emphasis among the communities, particularly
with respect to the desire to see development projects undertaken.
I prepared and submitted reports on meetings in the individual
communities as they occurred. What I will set out in this report are the
main themes that emerged in the discussions and drawing on that, I will
make some observations and draw some conclusions.

Main Themes:
A) Land Issues: Preservation of the land (including the water) is a
central preoccupation for all the communities. The elders were
the most vocal in explaining what the Dehcho perceive as their
relationship to the land and the importance of protecting it. That
said, there were many who clearly think that it is possible to
approach development and use of the land in a responsible
manner and there were several who stressed the urgency of
providing job opportunities for the younger generation. In their
words, young people need and expect job opportunities and it is
the duty of leaders to provide for prosperity now and in the
future.
A few focused specifically on the question of resource royalties
and the need to ensure that DFN communities share equally in
any development that does occur in the region.
Despite repeated attempts by the Grand Chief to draw out
communites’ views on the issue, there was almost no discussion
of the specific question of quantum at the community meetings. It
was however raised at my first meeting with the Dehcho
leadership where the number in play was still 80,000 square
kilometers. At a few community meetings the Grand Chief
referred to the “Tlicho formula” and in the Fort Simpson meeting,
he implied a quantum of 50,400 sq. kms, which he arrived at by
multiplying what he asserted was the per capita quantum for the
Tlicho (14 sq. kms.) by what he asserted was the Dehcho coalition
population (3600); no one (other than the press) picked up on it
or commented on it.
In one community (Fort Providence) a great deal of emphasis was

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 placed on the role and rights of the harvesters. It was argued that
it would be important to ensure the future of their way of life.
B) Related Land Issues: Related to comments about the importance
of the land and the water were concerns about the Protected
Areas Strategy (PAS) and Edehzhie. A few people expressed
dismay that progress towards a PAS seems to have stalled while
others (including the Grand Chief on several occasions) referred
to the central importance of Edehzhie and the fact that the
boundaries had been curtailed.
Another related issue was land ownership….many speakers
insisted on the position that the land belongs to the Dehcho and
that governments have nothing to give/offer them. (Chief Antoine
of Fort Simpson made it clear that he would not compromise on
land ownership.) Several people (notably but not exclusively in
West Point) also expressed dismay that they were being taxed on
property that they consider belongs to them.
C) Treaty Concerns: The relationship between the DFN communities
and the Crown and the related issue of the status of the existing
treaty was another common theme in the discussions. Here again,
it was the elders who, for the most part, insisted that the
negotiations should lead to an agreement that builds on or
extends Treaty 11 rather than replaces it. In almost every
community (Nahanni Butte being a notable exception) there were
lots of complaints aired about current GNWT policies or actions
and past Government of Canada “treacheries” but the specific
insistence that the negotiation on land quantum should be
between the First Nation and the Government of Canada seemed
to be a preoccupation mainly of some of the leadership. The Grand
Chief made this point in introducing me at almost every meeting,
but it wasn’t picked up by very many of the community speakers.
That said, Chief Antoine (Fort Simpson) insisted that he would
never compromise on the issue of Treaty 11 and Chief Gladys
Norwegian (JMR) appeared to support him.
D) Governance: Only a few individuals addressed this issue. One
person argued for a public government “similar to Nunavut” but
other comments were short on specifics. Those who did speak to
the issue stressed the importance they attached to it but they
seemed unclear about how it would or should work. Not
surprisingly, Metis speakers were anxious that any governance
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 model that is chosen should embrace minority rights and
inclusion.
As I understand it, discussions at the Main Table on governance
are not far advanced. It is difficult to say therefore whether the
“Tlicho model” would be acceptable or whether the leadership
and communities have different aspirations.
At the final meeting with the leadership, I raised the issue of
governance and asked specifically what they understood by a
public government. No one picked up on my question.
A few individuals referred to the DRMA describing it as the body
that is supposed to help the Dehcho Dene govern their lands and
resources and insisted that it should be the ultimate governing
body. It is perhaps worth noting that the Katl’odeeche First Nation
expect that they would be part of the lands and resources
management regime for the region even as a whole if they are not
part of the coalition that enters into a land claim agreement.
E) Pace of the negotiations: There were many concerns expressed
about the length of time the negotiations are taking. The fault was
laid mainly at the door of Government but one Chief allowed that
the Dehcho leadership was “not always working together” and
suggested that, on occasion, the leadership found itself “in the
position of being too harsh”. Another former Chief made a very
emotional plea for a conclusion to the negotiations so that his
community could continue to build on what their forefathers had
established and yet another person said that the negotiations
were tying up resources needed to address serious community
problems.
In separate discussions with the Grand Chief, he said that he is
under pressure to complete an agreement and he repeatedly
stressed his desire to “get a deal done”. He also said that he wants
something in place in the next 18 months.
F) Draft Interim Land Use Plan: There appeared to be wide-spread
support for the emerging Land Use Plan. There is still a need for
in-depth community briefings on the main elements of the Plan
(and I believe that these are in train) but generally speaking,
community members appeared to be receptive to it.
G) Financial Settlement: The subject of the financial settlement never
arose in the community discussions or with the leadership. In
separate discussions with the Grand Chief, I asked whether he had
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 an amount in mind. He did not respond in specific terms but said
that if the other elements of a draft agreement are sorted out, he
was confident that it would not be difficult to agree on a number.
H) Other Issues: There were other issues raised by community
speakers that are not directly related to the negotiations (except
possibly to the extent that they may bear on the wider issue of
governance). These included: residential schools and the need for
increased funding for healing, inadequate community budgets,
mental health issues, Dehcho Dene representation at senior levels
of government and government agencies, tax issues, the Truth and
Reconciliation Commission, the historical role of the Catholic
Church in the region, the difficulty in capturing the true nature of
the relationship of the Dene to the land in the English language,
inadequate funding to cover the administrative costs of delivering
services to the communities on behalf of various governments and
the pernicious effects of the availability of welfare to people who
do not need it (particularly the youth).

Comments/Observations:
1. It was clear that most people in the various communities had
limited knowledge of the draft agreement and its main issues.
This may be (as suggested to me by the Grand Chief) because
people lost their focus on the issues during what was a break in
meaningful Main Table discussions during the various elections in
2015 and before that, as a result of the “misunderstanding” over
the bilateral GNWT/DFN negotiation. In any event, there were
quite a few complaints from community members about the lack
of information on the negotiations as well as on other issues. One
person in Fort Simpson talked about apathy in the Dehcho
communities and the need for educated Dehcho members to join
the negotiating team. But whatever the reason(s), there will
certainly have to be a major information initiative launched to
ensure that community members who will vote on a draft
agreement are in a position to do so. If they do not know or
understand the main elements of a draft agreement, the
temptation may be to vote against it. In this regard, the Grand
Chief is already talking about the funding he will need for a major
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 campaign involving monthly meetings of the leadership and
frequent briefings in the communities to deal, inter alia, with land
selection.
2. Perhaps not surprisingly, it was clear that DFN positions are
crafted by the leadership and presented to the membership as
something they should support. It is a top down process. Hence on
the issue of land quantum, for example, community members had
no independent thoughts on what it should be (other than it
should be “enough”). At several meetings, the Grand Chief
referred to the Tlicho formula (which in his view yields a DFN
quantum of 50,400 sq kms). Nor did they express detailed views
on governance. If a compromise on land quantum and land
selection can be reached at the Main Table, it seems likely that
community members could be persuaded to accept it. The same
goes for governance issues if the Grand Chief and the leadership
assert that the interests of the Dehcho communities are protected.
3. There is a clear difference in priorities from community to
community. Some are deeply traditional, concerned mainly about
conservation of the land and water and preservation of their way
of life, while others are anxious to take advantage of the resources
available to them. To some extent, these priorities are
reflected/shaped by the individual Chiefs. That said, the Grand
Chief is confident that if he has the right package, he will, with the
support of a few of the leaders, be able to sell it.
4. The influence of the elders in the communities is paramount.
Indeed, at my second meeting with the leadership, it was pointed
out that a conscious decision had been taken at the beginning of
the process to allow for a DFN position that is “elder-centric”. For
the most part, the main aim of the elders is to conserve the land
and preserve the past and what they perceive as “rights” they
acquired in earlier days. To sell a package to the elders in the
communites, the Grand Chief will have to convince them that
there are sufficient safeguards for the integrity of the land (and
water). The Draft Interim Land Use Plan will go a long way to
achieving this, but it will also be important to reassure them on
the subject of Edehzhie. An action plan for designing and
implementing the PAS would probably also be helpful as would an
early transition to National Park status for the Nahanni Park.

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 5. One of the elements of the Dehcho Process that has perhaps
complicated the ability of the Parties to move forward is the DFN
insistence on a negotiating process that is open to all. This has
made it difficult to explore possibilities before either side felt the
need to adopt hard positions. It is for consideration whether it
would be wise to meet privately with the Grand Chief (alone or
with a couple of the Chiefs) to give him some idea of the
parameters of a package that the Premier and Minister of INAC
would be prepared to recommend to their Cabinet colleagues. It
would have to be made clear to him (as I have done on several
occasions) that it would not be possible to alter the package once
it has been agreed by the Cabinets in both governments. It would
also have to be stressed that the elements of the package are
linked and that it would not be possible to “cherry pick” items in
the package and certainly not after it has been approved.
If the Grand Chief indicates that the package is one that he can
take to his membership and/or if he argues for additional
elements in the package that can be accommodated, it could go a
long way to advancing the negotiations towards a successful
conclusion. If however he balks at the approach or individual
elements of a package, decisions could then be made about
whether to proceed with specific elements such as the Draft
Interim Land Use Plan in advance of an eventual AIP.
If a private meeting were to be offered to the Grand Chief, I think
it will be important to remind him of his own request at the outset
of the MSR exercise that the Parties should avoid any public
rejection of each other’s positions.
6. It is important to bear in mind certain realities regarding the DFN
ability to meet the exigencies of a rigorous negotiating time-line.
In a conversation with the Grand Chief, he advised me that he
intends to continue in his role as their chief negotiator. (In his
own words, he would like “to bring this negotiation home”). It is
not clear if he is completely comfortable with some of the more
technical elements of the negotiation. Moreover, for all practical
purposes, he now has only one outside advisor (i.e. the DFN
lawyer….who has steadfastly encouraged the view that the DFN
does not need to deal with the GNWT on land issues). I did not see
any evidence that qualified members of the DFN were interested
or available to support the Grand Chief at the negotiating table,
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 but perhaps there is more going on behind the scenes than I was
made aware of.
Elements of a possible package on outstanding issues:
I think it will be important to present any new offer to the DFN as a
package of elements. In an early conversation with the Grand Chief, he
said he needed something to take to the leadership that indicates that
the GNWT and the Federal Government are ready to move. In his view,
this would be advance implementation of the Draft Interim Land Use
Plan and agreement to protect the surface and sub-surface of Edehzhie.
He added that if he gets this, and if there is a willingness to engage in a
realistic way on land quantum, he would push for an agreement in 18
months (which would coincide with the next election of a GC).
It is my view that concessions such as these would best be offered in the
context of a package that would ensure the achievement of an AIP
within the life of the current Federal and Territorial governments (and
possibly within the mandate of the current Grand Chief).
Based on separate conversations with the Grand Chief, as well as on
meetings with the leadership and the communities, a successful package
would probably have to include:
 An adequate offer on quantum….This would probably have to be
more than 40,000sq kms and possibly closer to 45,000. I am
basing this number on somewhat inconclusive discussions with
the Grand Chief. Given that I did not have a mandate to negotiate
this or any other element of a draft agreement, it was difficult to
nail down a precise number. That said, I did indicate to the Grand
Chief that the number the DFN arrives at by applying “The Tlicho
formula” (50,400 surface and sub-surface) was probably too high.
It will be important to bear in mind that the DFN would
undoubtedly see a move from 80,000 to 50,400 as a significant
“new offer” from them. It will also be important to bear in mind
that the Grand Chief needs to have “an adequate” quantum of
surface and sub-surface land rather than surface land with a
generalized interest provision. In his own words, the Dehcho need
a chunk of land that is theirs outright. If there is scope for
swapping some sub-surface quantum and/or dollars for
additional surface quantum (as was the case with the Tlicho), it
will be after what the Grand Chief and leadership consider to be a
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 certain basic nucleus of surface and sub-surface land is assured.
On the other hand, if the Grand Chief is able to put a large
quantum number before his colleagues, he may be able to justify
the fact that some portion of it is surface only. In this regard, I
wonder whether a possible solution might be an offer of 40,000 to
45,000 sq kms of surface and sub-surface with the option to swap
some portion of the sub-surface lands (and/or money from the
financial offer) to achieve a larger quantum. It is interesting to
recall that at an earlier stage, then chief negotiator for the DFN put
forward a figure of 42,063 of surface and sub-surface land.
If a decision is taken to put another offer on quantum into play, I
would strongly suggest working out in advance a range of
possible formulas for dealing with quantum. One of the remarks
that came up frequently in my discussions was how offended
many were by the perception that the GNWT had taken a position
in the bilateral negotiation that their offer was a “take it or leave
it”.
 An acceptable sharing of resource royalties/income… In this
regard, the Grand Chief said many times that he cannot accept
that DFN land selection would be limited to conservation lands
(which he perceives to be the GNWT position). He is mindful of
the fact that a Dehcho government will have to provide some
services to its communities and this will require some income. I
did take the liberty of observing that it was probably not
reasonable for him to expect that none of the lands selected by the
Dehcho would be conservation lands since the GNWT would also
have to fund some services to the region. At my first meeting with
the leadership, then Dehcho Chief Negotiator Wallbridge
volunteered this need to share as “fact of life”.
 An agreed draft interim land use plan…As noted above, the Grand
Chief sees this as a powerful tool in reassuring the elders and the
more conservative elements of his flock. He and some others have
been pushing for approval and implementation of the draft plan in
advance of the completion of an AIP, as a demonstration of good
will on the part of governments.
I would advise against implementation of an Interim Land Use
Plan before an AIP unless it becomes clear that an AIP is not
achievable in the near future. An agreed LUP is an important

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 incentive to approve the rest of a package if it is part of that
package.
 Edehzhie….It is difficult to exaggerate the symbolic importance of
Edehzhie. If it were possible to extend the current offer to include
the protection of the sub-surface as well as the surface territory, it
would strengthen the Grand Chief’s hand in dealing with the
conservative elements of his communities. Once again however, I
would recommend that such an offer be linked to a package of
measures designed to achieve an AIP. Similarly, full National Park
status for Nahanni before an AIP is something the Grand Chief
mentioned would be a goodwill gesture from the Government of
Canada.
 Governance….As noted above, there were not a lot of references to
governance in my discussions in the communities and as I
understand it, this is a subject that has not been carried very far in
the Main Table discussions. I imagine however that this would be
an important element of any package so it will be important to get
some clear views from the DFN before considering any revised
offer(s). As noted above, I did ask the leadership on January 10 if
they had any thoughts on the question of governance that they
could convey to me. In particular, I asked what “public
governance” means to them and how it would change the
situation that pertains now. No one offered any comments. After
the leadership meeting, I impressed on the Grand Chief the need
to address this issue at the Main Table very soon. He agreed and
suggested that a special session devoted to this issue, along the
lines of the session planned at the end of January on the issue of
the DRMA, could be set up.
There were a few references to the DRMA in my discussions but
they were at a level of generality that made it difficult to draw any
real conclusions. If any new package endorsed by the federal and
territorial governments is put on the table, it will be important to
include something on this issue. It is to be hoped that the in-depth
Main Table discussion on the DRMA/MVRMA scheduled for the
end of January will provide some clarification on this issue.
 Financial Settlement….There was no reference to this issue in any
of my discussions at the community level or at the meetings with
the leadership. I did raise it with the Grand Chief but he dismissed
my query with the assertion that if we get the other elements of
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 the negotiation settled, the financial settlement will take care of
itself. It will nevertheless be important to include something on a
financial settlement in any package that is considered, if only to
provide scope for a negotiation on land quantum.
Conclusion:
If the federal and territorial governments are willing and able to
consider new offers, I got the very clear impression from the Grand
Chief that he is ready to negotiate. Moreover, there is an openness on
the part of many in the communities to bring these negotiations to a
close. Any new offer should ideally be presented as a package and
should include the elements described above.
Consideration should be given to how a new package would be most
effectively presented to the Grand Chief.

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