10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 104 THE COURT RESUMES AT 10AM ON FRIDAY 21 JULY 2006 MR SUTCLIFFE OPENS AND CALLS: TONY DOUGLAS ROBERTSON (Sworn) That is my full name How old are you? 19 Mr Robertson I would like to ask you to go straight to this incident on the afternoon of 14 December last year involvingb?__J Keys and his telephone. Could you tell the court what you had been doing earlier that day, just take us to the point where you are at the park? I will start from when I left my house, I left my house around 2 in the afternoon I drove straight to my bro Jeromes house up Waitahi Rd. Waitaio Rd? I think its called Waitaho Rd or Waitaio Rd, not sure what the roads are called up there. Then what did you do? we stayed at his house for round 15 minutes and then we went for a drive round the back of Welcome Bay rd doing skids and stuff in my car, we decided to drive out to Welcome Bay adn when we got ther we got into a fight at the park next to the caltex service station with 2 other guys,r after that happend we took off and drove towards Victory St and as we were driving along Victory St my car started playing up, Im not a mechanic, I don't know much about cars it started like it was bunny hopping along the road probably from doing the skids and stuff, it broke down on victory st so I rolled it down a st. that goes off Victory St, me and my friend jump[ed out of the car and looked under the bonnet and he knows more about cars than I do but even he didnt know what was wrong with it, we were with the car for round 10 minutes and we decd to sit under the tree at Johnsons reserve and have a blow. How long, when you were at the car after you had checked it over did you sit in the car for a while or stand outside? i stood at the bonnet of the car and my bro jumped in the car and started rolling us a joint and I was to figure out what was wrong with the car. Which seat in the car was he in? passenger at the front. How was he sitting in the passenger seat upright or what? Yes at that time yes Then what did you do you say you went for a blow? yes we sat under the trees at johnsons reserve we were both sitting there for 15 10 15 20 25 3O 35 Page 105 minutes When you say having a blow what do you mean? having a joint. Then what didyouy do? we were sitting there for round 15 minutes and jerome went to the park to go for a piss you know so he yelled out to me and ed he was going to the rugby club to see if there was a phone there he coulduse, I just said sweet as I couldnt be stuffed going anywhere so I told himk I would wait there. Then what did you do? I sat outside jonntsons reserve under the trees and then maybe 2 or 3 4 minutes later ?and his friend came past and I saw he had a cellphone and I wasnt going ot ask him if I could use it, thats why he states in his statement. You give your evidence? he got maybe 20 metres up the road and I yelloed out to him if I could borrow his phone to make a text, we both aproached each other When you say you both aprochd each other what do you mean? I started crossing the road nad he started crossing the rd toward me as well, him and his friend Then what happend? he said to me that the phone wasnt his and I sd Said that just needed to make a text that was all. He had no credit on his phone and I sd to him my friend dollar phone card $10 phone 80 what then happend? I said to him we?ll go just go Did you know that? yes that my friend had Card yes. to the park he should be down there because it wasnt that long after Jerome left that,?y and his friend came walking past and I told- Wthhat he should be just down int he reserve What then happend? park at that time he still had the phone in his poss, I didnt to take it off him or anything at all. Alsd I will come with you we both went to the What then happend? we both went down into the reservet I yelled out to my friend Jerome a number of times, rfriend called out ot him and, repld come down his friend, cant remember what his friend sd but he didnt come down he kept calling out to{_ iand Ikept replying come down. How far into the reserve did you get? have you got a map I could show the jury with? Exhibit 2? I think this is the start of Johnsons Reserve and we walked all the way down there and it was quite far in the park that 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 106 we got, somewhere round here Please mark with an where you believe you reached in the park. While the jury is looking at that, could you tell us what then happend? yes turned to me and said he needed to get home soon and at that time he said is it telecom or vodafone you want to text? and I sd Im not sure because its my bro that wants to text and I ad I it could be vodafone, he handed the phone to mne I didnt snatch or attempt to take the phone at all, and then thats when he said to me he needed to get home soon and I sd we just started jogging a bit both of us then what happend? at first he was jogging right next to me you know and then I turned round and he was running the other way and I yelled out to him your phone Then what happend? he carried on running and I yelled out to him I said oi your phone those are the exact words Did you eyer see him again? No What di dyou do? I walked up to waipuna park to find Jerome and as I was getting to the top of waipuna park he came down I wonder if you could tell us where you vehicle was parked? down Cumberland St on the left hand side I think. Could you take that pen again and mark where you believe your vehicle was parked. While the jury is looking at that can you tell dyou then go? when I found Jerome he sd who were you get his phone we both walked park the same way me and came trying to find us where di yelling out through the Then what did you do? returned to my car the same way me and. came. Then what did you do? we got into my car and tried started it again and it still wouldnt start, at that time Jerome put his shirt over his head and laid the seat down to keep out of the sun.I rolled us both a cigarette and after maybe a couple of minutes I tried starting the car and after a couple of go's it went, that is why I thought it was overheated, I don't know much about cars and I don't know what was wrong with it. What did you then do once the car had started? we drove straight to Jeromes house back up Waitaio Rd Did you go anywhere near Te Arawa Pl? no Lets go to the next morning, the 15th. What happend that morning? I 10 15 25 30 35 Page 107 left my house around 8 oclock, 5 past 8 or something. First of all, where did you sleep? at my mum?s house. Where? In my bedroom with my girlfriend. and what happend the of the 15th? I woke up I got dressed I had a cigarette and coffee and left around 5 past 8 in the morning. When you md your statement to Detective blackwell you idnicated a time closer to or even after 8.30? yes You have just told us it was after 8 whats the there can you expln that? yes when I was, first of all when I wasin Waikeria prison and I was reading through my girlfriends statements. You have been on remand at Waikeria? for 8 months You cant tell us what your girlfriends statement says, but why is it you believe when you to the police you left at? when I left my house that I looked at the time on the stereo in the lounge and it said around 8.30, 8.35 and talking to my mum and girlfriend. You cant say what other people have told you, but lets continue with what you say you then did and get this addressd, when you left your home where did you go? I went through Ohaiti drove round the Maungatapu roundabout and straight to the mount going past the Baypark speedway Where were you going to end up ultimately? My friend Jeromes house in Waitaio Rd Why head out all the way round the mount to do that? well my first. intentions was because my car didnt have much gas in it I was going to drive to the caltex service at the mount next to bayfair and I was going to nick some gas, I was going to take some gas Why drive all the way to bayfair to do that? just that time of the I thought it would easier with a lot of traffic round I wouldnt get recognised and its further away from where I lived I deed to use that one. So what did you then do? while I was driving there I decided not to do it, I chickened out I sups so I turned left at the roundabout by baypark speedway and drove round to Tepuke Then where did you go? turned left just after the shell service stn. You turned left at the shell service stn? Yes on to Welcome Bay Rd. Exhibit 16 if you look at the top left hand corner of that map you will see SH 29 and you will see at number 25 at the top of the map 10 15 20 25 3O 35 Page 108 in black the baypark events centre and raceway, when you reached that area and those roundabouts which way did you turn? left on to Te Maunga Rd on to 3H2 Just have another look at that and think about whats left and right, which way did you turn? Im not too good with my left and rights but I turned down Te Maunga Rd Heading which way? along SH2 You see the intersection of Welcome Bay Rd and 8H2 which is on the right hand side of the map? yes Which way did you turn there? I turned left I think down Welcome Bay Rd. You turned on to Welcome Bay Rd did you? Yes And could you then tell us where you then travelled? I was travelling to Waitaio Rd I think I was travelilng to my bro's house at Kaiate Falls, as I was aproaching the Rocky Cutting Rd the wires to my stereo disconected, its not the original CD player to that car. What di dyou then do? I puled up Rocky Cutting Rd I did a uturn and parked on the left, on the other side of the road going out of Rocky Cutting not going up What did you then do? I turned my car off and pulled my cd player out and started twisting the wires together, I was there for a maximum of 10 minutes What didyou then do? put the cd player back in rolled a cigarette and drove off towards Waitaio Rd Then what did you do? Headed to me 5 maybe 10 minutes to get from Waitaio Rd to his house and when my mate Jeromes house and it took I got to his house I knocked on th edoor and he came to the door, he had just woken up, he invited me in and when I got inside I asked him if he had anything to score What di dyou do then? he sd no and asked me if I wanted coffee and I sd yes How long did you stay there for? going back to the next couple of days maybe 20 minutes half an hour Then waht did you do? after a conversation and coffee I left his house and started driving back down Waitaio Rd and I got maybe a or 2 down the road and I sawL_ .on the road with her bag in her hands 10 15 20 25 3O 35 Page 109 You say you recognised her? At first I didnt recognise her until I had a proper look when I drove past her How is it that you recognised her? I just had a proper look when I drove past her and I seen her face Had you seen this girl before? Yes Where had you seen her? with her brother who I know him as walking her to school one day at Maungatapu and that was the very first day I met him and:r yes thats who I and the one I met The person who gays evidence by the name ofl met, he is the one who told me his name iswi withw that time How many times did you see him withf?__ 2, maybe 3 times. And how many times did you see him without being present? once I think. ?r He indicated he had seen you in town at a bus stop? yes. Was that the only occasion you saw him withoutib __pbeing present? that I can remember yes And was anybody with you at the time? Yes my girlfriend was. Was there any introductions, did you introduce her to him? No I didnt introduce her to him at all. yes What did you do? when I got a proper look at her I had just driven So you see! just past her and when I seen it was her I stopped the car and reversed up and wound the window down You wound the window down? and I was puzzled as to why she was out there, I was shocked at the time, when she looked up she was bawling her eyes out and my instant reaction I told her to get in the car. Did she get in the car? Yes. When this policeman arrived the seat in seated was reclined? yes Why was that? It was still reclined from the day before, the seat stayed like that, he stayed in it all the way to his house. JURY RETIRE: 10.45 AM I didnt put it up and neither did my bro Jerome, 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 110 JURY RETURN: 10.47 AM How did\f Did you see what she had in her hands? all I could see was her bag. get into the car? she opened the door. When she got in the car what then happend? she sat on the front of the seat on the front edge of the seat and just had her bag in her lap. Then what happend? we sat there for maybe 10 or 20 seconds and I asked her if she was allright what was the matter, she said nothing just cried. What happend next? I started driving down the road, can I just say something please. Just explain? we started driving down the road and my car started playing up did the same thing it did no the 14th, Im not a mechanic I don't know shit about cars so I didnt know what was wrong with it Then what happend? I pulled to the side of the road and popped the bonnet and had a look when I popped the bonnet steam came out and the engine was hot, that doesnt necessarily mean it was overheating. I was out of the car for maybe 2 minutes or something looking under the bonnet I returned to my car and when I returned her bag was in the back seat and she was still sitting on the edge of the seat then what happend? I got back in the car and she said she wanted her mum Then what happend? she kept on crying and I asked her what had happend and she kept saying she wnted her mum Whats the next thing happend after that? I left my bonnet on my car up when I first returned back to my car I jumped out and had another look at the engine, I still couldnt figure out what was wrong Then what happend? I closed the bonnet of my car and sat in the car and rolled me a cigarette Did you try and make the car start? yes I tried starting the car several times How long do you believe you were sitting there with?* LA before sergeant thompson turned up? around 10, 15 minutes, I cant really remember, round 10, 15 minutes. If you look at the booklet of photographs, exhibit l, and in 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 111 particular photographs 35 and 36 and 37? Yes. Do you remember seeing those boxer shorts? No I dont remember seeing them at all, I don't know how they got there, maybe you want to ask those guys over there i was wearing any boxer shorts? We lilke I told the police those guys sitting there I told them all I Do you recall whetherf . remember her wearing was blue shorts, I didnt take notice of anything she was wearing at all. What happend when Sergeant Thompson arivd? When he pulled up I think he said good and I said hey to him he asked me what the problem was and I Sergeant Thompson said that as he arvd round the corner and saw your vehicle? Yes He observed you leaning across the passenger side with your head in a sense looking down? Thats bullshit, I can tel you right now that is absolute bullshit, I was leaning against my door having a cigarette I seen his car coming round the corner even before it got round the corner What happend when he came to the car door? my window was wound down about that much I was having a cigarette, I wound it down that far when he came witness holds up[ left hand and shows distance between index finger and thumb of approximately 5 inches, then what happend? he aproached my carcar and said gidday or good and asked me what the problem was. What was your response? I told him that my car had down and where I found(; What then happend, who said what? he asked me if I knew her and I how far up the road I found her. sd yes because I told him her name and he asked me how I knew her and I sd I knew her brother, her mum. When I mentiond her name she also didnt say no thats not I said nothing at all about knowing my name,-she said that when the police officer said her name. What then happend? he said he wanted_ I so I hopped out of the car and she hopped out after methe car an! exit the car over top of me at all, I don't know where that came from, I don?t know why he said that, she did not exit the car over the top of me at all. Carry on, she gets out of the car what then happens? she hops into 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 112 the officers car What did you do? hopped into my car with the door wide open. Where were your feet? hanging out the door, I was sitting in my car with my feet placed on the ground outside the door. The sergeant said that while you were seated in the car with; that you to and then started the vehicle? I did try to start the vehicle in front of him about 3 or 4 times he was standing right there watching me turn the key he could clearly see me turning the key. But did the car start? No After! happend where did the sergeant go what did he do? once 'got out of the vehicle and got into his car what then got out of my car he took ,back to his car, once she wasin his car he came back to my car and asked me what I was doing with her and I told him, I said bro I everything to him He said you told him you were her to school? no I did not say nothing about that at all. Just for the record what colour was the sergeants vehicle? I think green. Did it have lights on it like a police car? No By lights Im refering to the things on the roof? Yes I understand, no he didnt Did you attempt to start the car at all again? at one stage I said to him I will see if my car will start and he said nothing like he had no problem with it Then what happend? after I tried starting it a couple of more times it finally started I put my foot flat to the floor and it started, he asked me to turn the car off and I turned it off straight away. Was there any discussn about whether you would be arrested? No not at all, I had no reason to ask if I was getting I asked him what was going to happen in regards to what was going to happen with.L Do you recall how long you were there with this police officer? yes I said nothing at all about me getting arested. we were there for around 10, 15 minutes at least. How much of that time did he spend chatting to you? pretty much the whole entire time, he returnd to his car twice once to radio in for and the rest of the time he stayed in my car the whole entire time. the other officers to turn up and once to check on? 10 15 20 Page 113 Where was he standing in relation to your car? right next to my window,I could put my hand out and touch him. Where was the telephone that you had? in my pocket Did you ever take it out of your pocket? No not at all the phone was still in my pocket from 14 December Did you ever play with the phone or anything while the police officer was there? No You have been accused of attempting to abduct 2 children from Te Arawa Pl what do you say to those allegations? Ive got absolutely nothing to say about thatthat wasn't me you know, those fellas have done a fucking good job trying to prove it was me, Im sorry about this. What about her school what do you say to that allegation? thats bullshit. you have been accused of abducting her from near What do you say to the allegations that you had removed her boxer shorts so you could touch her indecently? I say that is fucking bullshit, sorry about my language but that?s something I would never do. JURY RETIRE: 11.05 AM 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 114 XXD BY MR BRIDGES Mr Robertson can we begin by agreeing you are a liar? you can begin howevar you want Do you acpt that you have lied repeatedly in relation to this matter? No I havent lied at all You told Sergeant Thompson and then Detective Blackwell that your car boiled over up at Kaiate Falls 100 metres picked up?_nn didnt you? like I sd Im not You used the words boiled over didnt you? yes You told Detective Blackwell that the car wouldnt go the day before either and thats why you needed to borrow the cellphone? Yes or so from where you a mechanic Regarding both times what you said was lies wasnt it? no Because both times your car started exactly when you wanted it to didnt it? No. Sergeant Thompson said that you started your car twice when he was there with no problems correct? thats bullshit That is what he said wasnt it? yeah well thats bullshit Your verision is he is a liar is that it? yes he is In relation to 14 December once you got on the phone or rather once you got the phone from got in your car and you took Jerome up to Kaiate Falls and back? I dropped him off at his house yes Your car worked when you wanted it to then didnt it? what are you trying to say? Im putting to you that you had lied abOut your car? No I haven?t. You know dont you that your car was fine on both 14th and 15 December correct? No that is incorrect. Well you drove it here there and everywhere in greater Tauranga didnt you? yes heard the evidence of Sergeant Thompson feeling the engine and it was cool and fine when he felt it wasnt it? thats bullshit he didnt feel the engine or bonnet at all, he didnt take any notice of the car breaking down at all, he stood next to me, he could see me with the keys Did you feel it? No I didnt the only time I had a look at the engine was when we first broke down and I looked under the bonnet. Why did you say it boiled over then? like I sd Im not a mechanic, I don't know much about cars there was a bit of steam coming from 10 15 2O 25 30 35 Page 115 the motor and I could feel the heat coming from the motor when I was standing right next to it I thought you just told me you didnt feel it? Ididnt put my hands on it I could feel the heat coming from the engine when I lifted up the bonnet So it did boil over then? I don't know thats what Im trying to tell you man. I asumed it boiled over. And Sergeant Thompson feeling the engine thats lies? thats bullshit, its bullshit, if he felt the bonnet of hte car it wasnt when I was there, if he did feel it I would have seen him feel it, he didnt feel it when I was there anyway. its not just lies, You know enough to fix your stereo and the wires behind that? you dont have to be a mechanic to fix your stereo Have you said that simply to account for the evidence of Rocky Kiwi? what are you trying to say? You heard the evidence of the mechanic robert martin of 30 exprc that hte cooling system and mechanics of the car were fine? yes Idid but didyou hear my lawyer asked me if had cracked chassis or cracked steerg and he didnt know that at all Does that affect the cooling system? I don't know, did you also hear my 1 awyer say that the car was damaged due to flood damages, Ive got a statement saying that the car was running tired from the previous owners Are you going to call that evidence? no Im not dont tell me about it? maybe you should read it. lied about the car to suit yoursf? no I didnt lie about the car, you are makg it sound like I lied about the car just to please the jury, that is your job, you probably know Im telling the truth, you are doing your job arent you. You didnt just lie about the car boiling over did you? I didnt lie about anything You lied to both Sergeant Thompson and then Detective blackwell about knowing{ family didnt you? No I didnt. You told Sergeant Thompson you knewi mother didnt you? No I didnt Do you recollection his evidence when asked by your lawyer about that he was certain that was said wasnt he? well thats his opinion you know thats what he's saying. 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 116 Another lie by him is it? yes that is another lie by him. Because of course( never knew I said nothing about her mum and I damn sure didnt say anything Hu?had never heard ofyou had she? and I I sd nothing about meeting her mum at all about taking her from school, so why dont you move on from this, move to the part where you think I sexually assaulted her. You told Detective Blackwell about meetingt number of times and youhave told us that again today haventyou? yes brother a He had only met you once at a bus stop isnt that right? that is what he says You lied about knowing the mum correct? no that is not correct because I didnt say anything about knowing her mum at all, he says i sd I knew her mother, I told him I knew her brother You lied about how well you knew the brother? if I lied about that how was I supposd to know she had a brother the same age as me, thats not a coincidence a lucky guess that I find a little girl witha brother the same age as me, thats because I fucking know him man You knowi?+AMh I know her brother quite well do you? no I don?t know her quite well, So you knewL name didnt you? yes She had never seen or heard of you before though had she? that is what she said yes, apparently thats what she said You saw the video and her evidence didnt you? yes but did you see the part where they showed her the photograph were you asleep, she was asked about the photographs and said it wasnt me and she said I had no tattoos, I have no tattoos I will show you now, the only tattoo I have is on my shoulder Is that how you talked to} on 14 December? how Did you talk to him like that? No Is it talking like that that made? are you on about man you are to pull this out on me in front Lory? fucking what of the jury man Im pissed off because yOu fellas tried to make it look like I did this, You didnt even know the familys last name? No I didnt, when I meet I know what you are up to man. people I dont say whats your first name and your last name. Why Mr Robertson did you give the sergeant a name that wasnt their last name? I didnt give him their last name the only time she said 10 15 20 25 3O 35 Page 117 thats not my name is when he said her name You talk about a Jamie when there is no Jamie? that is what he I don't know why he told me that. While we're on names? Can I say something please told me his name was, THE COURT: if you want to add to an answer you have just given you can do that, are you adding to your last answer? yes THE COURT: yes? its not a coincidence, how am I supsd to know that she has an older brother and I just happen to know him expln that to me. MR BRIDGES: You explain this coincidence to me, someone in a white car very similar to yours and a man looking very similar to you to take 2 children on 14 December and the next day you are in a car with a little girl all children say the man said the same thing nto them? didnt grey car and pakeha and bald head and didnt he say he had tattoos _Jbrother say the guy was driving a on his face and his chest and how can I try to get 2 kids in my car at the same time Im allegeldy robbing! {of his cellphone? Jerome is that just another one of your fiction characters? I dont make up fictional characters Are you summonsing him? No Im not You heard the evidence of inquiries not locating him remember that? Yes and I dont understand that, what they look on their computer to find if a Jerome has beenin trouble with the police and expect to find him. You lied about taking him home? No I didnt lie about taking him home. On 14 December, correct? I just answered that question. You told Detective Blackwell you were home by 3.45 and your girlfriend could verify that correct? yes thats what I told him. And that was a lie? no it wasnt, it was around 3.45. It was around 3.45? thats what I just sd, it could have been 3.50 or 3.55 but I know it was before 4, and that is what I told him, I know it was before 4 oclock anyway Do you remember your lawyer Mr Sutcliffe asking questions to} about how he was texting prior to your taking his cellphone at 3.35pm? yes And you accept would you that the text he makes at 3.45 is about the time you and he make contact? Yes Page 118 Thats whenyou were at Johnson park? thats the same question you asked me and I answered it, why dont you get to your point. Did you hear his honour tell you about who asks the questions? yes. How long did you say it takes you to get from Welcome Bay just after school to Kaiate Falls Rd? I wouldnt have a clue I dont time myself when I drive. MORNING ADJOURNMENT 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 119 So Mr Robertson before the adjournment we discussd that you were at Johnson Park about 3.35? yes How long would you say you were at the park from the point you see around 15 minutes. And you then take Jerome home? yes Whats Jerome's last name? I dont want to say Are you going to give us any details about him? at the time all of this was happening I was prospecting for the mongrel mob, Jerome was a senior gang member in the mongrel mob. I just dont feel safe saying anything about him but its up to you whether you believe that or not, up to the jury whether they believe that, I dont feel safe giving any information about him, I wish I never met him now. He would be known to the police would he? most probably With you at all the important points in this 2 day period correct? yes Also responsible for winding the seat down correct? yes. Mr Robertson you heard Detective Blackwell give evidence that from that general area in Maungatapu perhaps rather than Welcome Bay, but in the general area he could go to Kaiate Falls 12 minutes 55 seconds do you remember that? I thought he said 8 minutes Rocky Cutting Rd okay? Rocky Cutting Rd is further away from Waitaio Rd, Waitaio Rd is closer to Maungatapu than Recky Cutting Rd You tell me how long about it took you to get from your car that you say was in Cumberland Crescent to where Jerome lives? how long it took me to get there? Yes? I wouldnt have a clue, around 10 minutes, thats driving the way I drive, thats probably why the next day my car had almost no gas in it because I was driving so fast, the faster you drive the more gas you use, like Detective Blackwell says he can make it from Maungatapu Rd to Maungatapu school in 8 minutes, I could drive from Cumberland rd to Waitaio driving my speed not normal road limit, my speed in probably 5 minutes At 10 minutes away you wernt home by 4 were you? I sd I was home round 4 oclock, I didnt look at the clock when I got home but my girlfriend can confirm it was before 4 oclock sd it was 15 minutes we were together You lied to Detective Blackwell? I didnt lie about anything. 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 120 The lie was that you were home by then, by 4? that wasnt a lie. You certainly had plenty of time even on your version to rob a young boy of a cellphone correct? no I didnt rob him of anythingleast get a 6 and 7 yaer old boy and girl into your car? didnt the mum say it happend round 3.30 and didnt'P??n say the time me nad him wre together was 3.places at once You tell which one did I do first? what do you mean, you know I was on Vicotry St at the time _y?}phone was supposedly aggravatedly tkn, I did not take his phone either You know that times can be difficult cant they? what are you trying to say You told Detective Blackwell youleft your home about 8.35 in the morning? yes i found out the time on Today you tell us 5 past 8? thats because the stereo in the lounge was half an hour wrong. the lies you told the I told you I lied about was it hard Mr Robertson to keep track of Detective in the 3 video interviews? like nothing doyou acpt you may have lied possible you lied? the only thing I lied to the Detective was my licence plate numbers, the only thing I didnt want to get in trouble for having the wrong licence place numbers, thats the only thing I lied about. No more lies on your version? No not about what happend with these kids anyway What do you mean by that are there other lies not to do with the kids? fucking hell man what are you this to heart for, you are what Im saying and twisting it round trygin to make it sound like a whole different story, I did not kidnapl ?Iand I did not attempt to kidnap those other kids from Tearawa Pl. Im asking you a simple question? Im giving you a simple answer. Other than about the number plates have you told any other lies in the video interviews? Like I sd nothing about taking these little kids, I lied nothign about that, there could be things in there, maybe the timing I got wrong or something but everything I said to do with these little kids is the truth, thats the only answer I have to that question In your first interview do you remember saying to Detective 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 121 Blackwel about going to score a tinnie from Jerome on 15 December? yes. But he didnt haVe any you said? No he didnt he told me on 14 December to come and see him_that he might have some that day I sd when I dropped him at his house yes I'll come and see you in the mng. Thats why I went there And at the time Detective Blackwell asked you if you had any drugs that day, 15 December? Yes he did and I said no. You said no no I havent nothing I havent had? any drugs for about a week, yes thats what I sd but would you like to confess to the police you had just been smoking weed, Im not going to tell theh police yesterday I was smoking drugs do me for it now, I was to cover up my tracks man, even my girlfriend saysin her statement are you calling your girlfriend? No thats why I just apologised for that, driving round in my car you know Im not going to confess to the police I was smoking weed adn Thats exactly what you did to Sergeant Thompson? I told him I was going to score one, I didnt tell him I was smoking. Was your statement that you hadnt had any drugs for about a week now truth or not? no it wasnt Thats right because in the very next interview you told the Detective that you were stoned? on 14 December yes. So thats another lie in addition to the number plates right? I didnt see it as a lie. I told the police in the first statement no Ihadnt had any drugs for about a week that is because I didnt think I was getting charged for anything, I did nothing to get charged for, in the 2nd statement thats when I knew I was getting charged for that shit so I thought fuck it I'll just tell them All Im asking you is whether you said you hadnt had any drugs for a week you were lying or not? I answered your question Is your answer no? yes I thought I made that clear. Is that the same as the way you are not lying about what happend up on Tearawa Pl? can you make your questions clearer please, a bit more understandable, I answered that question as well. You tell me Mr Robertson what part of I havent smoked drugs for a week when you clearly had is not a lie? I just told you that I lied about that 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 122 Tell me again? what for I answered your question about 3 or 4 times. Turning to the robbery at Johnsons Park have you asked 12 year olds in the past if you can use their cellphones? No I havent. You were 18 at the time werent you? yes 'Jiglooked about 12 to you did he? I don't know he looked about 13, 14 to me. I thought he went to Tauranga boys, I don't know what their uniforms look like You could see that he was smaller than you though couldnt you? Yeah I could. That cellphone we see in photos 62 to 64 have you got that? Yes. You accept wouldnt you that is an expensive cellphone? Yes. And your position is Mr Robertson that you got that without yes I didnt threaten him at all, we were talking you know, there was no violence uttering one threat of violence to4 involved or threatening or anything involved, like I told the police I don't know why he took off, if I was going to threaten I would have, if I wanted his phone I wouldnt just threaten him, what Im trying to say is I didnt threaten him man. So broken down really what happend was you asked to borrow his 400 dollar camera cellphone? yes You get his 400 dollar camera cellphone yes? obviously. And he runs away leaving you with his 400 dollar camera cellphone? yes thats exactly what happend, you would have heard him say I called out to him oi, why would I turn round and yell out to him ah your phone, he clearly stated yesterday that he heard me yellow oi. Did you hear him say that you said if he told the cops you would give him the bash? I heard him say that yesterday yes and thats a lie. He's a liar isnt he? Im not saying he's a liar, Im saying he lied about that?yes, I don't know him Im. not going to judge him, I don't know him He lied yes? He lied about that yes Sergeant Thompson lies? yes him I will judge because he is liar Lionel lied? why are you asking me that, why dont you get back to the case You are the liar? No Im not you are making me out to be a liar, thats your job. 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 123 So you are telling this court that you didnt say to the boy you would give him the bash? I have answered that question. Do you have any idea why both boys then went away and had people call the police? No I don't know, like I said I don't know why he ran away, he had no reason to run away, I could understand that you know me being bigger than him and everything I understand that and at the time he didnt look scared or anything, we were talking, he was even laughing and we get to that certain partin the park and thats when he turned round and ran away He's not just laughing, you 2 went for a jog together is that right? I didnt say we went for a jog together, I sd we started jogging and I thought he was right next to me. Can you expln why you started jogging? because he said he needed to get home. Mr Robertson its from there that you run out in the directions of Waipuna Park on exhibit 2? are you trying to say I ran into waipuna Park? - Yes? No I didnt run into waipuna park at all I went to the top of waipuna park and that is where Jerome came out, why would I want to run into Waipuna park when my car was in Victory St, I know what you are trying to say, you are trying to say that I ran into waipuna park that my car was there because that is what the police are trying to say and Im tellin gyou my car was parkedon Victory St. If your car was parked at the top of waipuna rd it would be very close to Tearawa Pl wouldnt it? probably but have you got proof my car was there, why would I park my car there and walk all the way I don't know; had a phone like that, why would I park there, you have no witnesses no proof no nothing that my car to victory st, was parked there, no proof no nothing. The reason you have even admitted being at Johnson park is because with the 400 dollar camera cellphone in your possn when the police found you the next day you had no.choice whatsoever did you? no actually the sergeant came in and ed to me can you take off your jersey and shirt and he looked straight at my tattoo and the cellphone and I put 2 and 2 together and thought he's rung the police about my phone, Detective Blackwell asked and I told him, I didnt know nothing about someone trying to take these little kids, 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 124 I knew nothing about that until he told me about it. From the time of the incident at Johnson Park you had plenty of time to take the cellphone into the police didnt you? yeah I did. You then the next morning see Sergeant Thompson correct? Yeah. never told him about the cellphone did you? No I didnt why would I do that, point I wasnt concerned about that phone at all at that It wasnt yours? I wasn't concerned about that man Why werent you concerned? why do you think? You told Detective blackwell that if you could have found the boy you would have given him his camera cellphone back correct? yes. Yet you didnt tell any of the police until they raised it with you correct? yes like I sd I wasnt concerned about the phone. Do you accept that you were just driving around that afternoon, the 14 December? Yes. Were you just driving around looking for young children? what do you want me to say to that? I fucking answered your question how many times man, you are just bringing this all up to try and make me look bad. You were lying when you said you didnt know anything about the attempmted kidnappings werent you? no I wasnt, I knew nothing about it unti Detective blackwell told me about it. You wre there adn your car was there werent they? when? Tearaa Pl? fuck man dont you listen to the evidence how can I be there at 3.30 when at the same time I am with(_ 5} maybe I have a twin brother that drives the same car as mine, or maybe those fellas put it into those kids, I know those kids have been manipulated thats why they are describing different cars and different fellas some mare describing the same car as mine if he doesnt have a brown car he has a grey car, if he doenst have short hair he has a bald head. I take it from what you just told me that you acpt that there seems to have been another person in a very similar car who looks very much like you that was at Tearawa Pl? I dont accept that, Im just saying you know. You asked me before to look at the evidence, you heardfim ha? I give evidence do you remember that boy? Yes. Do you remember him saying it was like my hair, the mans hair he 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 125 saw? Yes Yeah it was all baldy later he said it was black? yes I do remember him saying that. Like your hair then? expln different places at the same time, how is that possible? that must be going through your head yeah he's right how could he be in 2 places at the same time, Ive got to keep going anyway. he talked about someone in a white singlet pretty skinny half casting, 28 31? yeah but did you also hear the other kids say he was 50 steps away from the car and the other kids that were brown, if he is he wouldnt I can tel you how he standing righ tby the car supposedly ed the car was standing 50 metres away how can he describe me when have seen me if he was 50 steps away, described that How is that? those fellas, manipulated reading through their statements I have its clear that they have been every statement in my cell and read through it word by word and you can clearly see they have been manipulated There is not a single piece of evidence to that effect is there? have you read through all those statements? v- talks about a car without any number plates on it? Yeah he does, my car had number plates on it, I never left my house without number plates on it at all, never, the only time I drove that car without number plates was when I first bought the car and that was from where I bought it to my house. You told Detective Blackwel you had only put the plates on it a couple of days ago?yeah they are the plates I got off my friend,if you read my statement you will see Im using my mothers plates, if you read the neighbours statement you will see Are you going to call your mum? fuck no, im allwed my say and Im teling you I had my mums plates on my car Did your mum tell you to take those plates off? when she needed the car yes And you did take them off? yes and I didnt drive anywhere in that. car without those plates, if the car had no plates on it I didnt go anywhere. It wasnt unti the evening of 14 December you put plates on the car was it? just after 4 oclock 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 126 that is when you put the plates on? yes when I was drivingn round I had my mums plates onthe car and if you are trying to say how could you use your mums plates when she was work she got dropped off by a friend, I got the plates off her car and put them on mine and left. that start with TF I got them on the 14th from a guy named Daniel, Sampson stays on Windemere Dr in Tauranga, I got the plates you can see him if you want. The point is? the point is I didnt leave my house without plates on that car at any time ever Even on your version you changd your plates after your robbery didntyou? what do you mean You just told the court that at 4 oclock on 14 December you came? and put those plates I got off daniel sampson on to my car and you know why I ed that, because Ididnt have those plates until 14 December, when I got home I got the plates off my mums car and put them on my car, then the plates I got off my friend starting with TF after I took mymums plates off my car and put themon to her car I put those plates starting with TF on to my car. It was days before that your mother made you change the plates not on 14 December? no it was days before she told me to take her plates off my car, are you calling my mum as a witness? you recallfi She talked about a car that was white with little black stripes round it? yes L}giving evidence? Yes. With seats.that were red and black? yes thats what she said. Black and white dice she Said? yes and I wonder how she figured all that out aye. Was it because your car was up her street? fucking hell, do you even listen to the evidence how can I be in 2 places at the same tiome, 3.35 I was with{ are together is about 15 minutes, the mum of these kids says at if? ??he estimates the time me and him around about 3.30 her son comes running in and saying is it allright if] round 3.30 so expln that to me how could I be with? get into someones car and that was a at 3.35 when at 3.30 these kids someone is trying to abduct these little kids are you trying to say that. Are you telling me that ?is an honest witness we should rely on his evidence about 3.35? the evidende is right in front of 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 127 you onthose phone records he says just before I arproached he got a text from his mum and that was receivd at 3.34. Do you remember yes talking about a white singlet that the guy had a kids necklace on it that lights up, was made of plastic? didnt he also say it was made of string and multi coloured and the car was brown and the he also said that didnt he He was up very close to your car wasnt he? probably, seats were brown, I don't know I wasnt there Inside the car he talked about the dice and so on and about a steering wheel that was black red black red black red, that can only be your steering wheel cant it? you are trying to say Im the if he noticed that then surely he would have noticed my car was white, does he say the only one in New Zealand that has one of those, car was white no he says it was brown so the only way he would have been able to describe that is because those fellas would have shown him photographs of things in my car so he will come to court and say things like that. You are the only one that lies in court? No Im not. You said just before are you the only one with a steering wheel like that? I sd are you trying to say Im the only one in New Zealand that has one like that You didnt have the same coloured steering wheel they described? what do you mean You acpt your car had the balck and white dice? yes they did,isnt it obvious they are sitting right there Pendant that lights up? yes but it didnt have a multi coloured string on it and how would they know it lights up unless these fellas told they, they can hardly describe the colour of the car, just by looking at it would you know that had a light in it by looking at it would you think its got a light in it. So the only way they would know it had a light in it is those fellas told them, what Im trying to say I know those fellas have been tampering with the evidence, you sit there with smiles on your face you tried to wink at me the other day Your lawyer Mr Sutcliffe didnt ask a single question about tampering with evidence did he? No he didnt. We can agree you picked up at least can we? if you want. 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 128 And was your car going okay at that stage? yeah it was running allright. And 10, 20 minutes later it overheats? I didnt say 10, 20 minutes later Sorry? I know what you are up to, why dont you ask me if it was me that picked her up on Maungatapu Rd so everyone can go for lunch. Like you say I know your answr to that question? yeah exactly, she was seen at 8.30 on Maungatapu Rd by people delivering pamphlets and her brother says in his statement that at the time she was kidnapped he could still see these people deliyering pamphlets how can I be there when Imm seen at Rocky Cutting at 27 past 8 You tell me, you remember hearing the evidence cd31 teacher? Yes I remember her saying that? i told her that this guy was pakeha driving a grey car and had a bald head yes I remember him saying that 8.55 was the time' school? yes but I think he ed in his statement he sat at a bus stop for a while got to Thats right? so he would have sat there and went to school So the bus stop? fuck I don't know whre the bus stop, Ididnt pick anyone up Was??r_73 andt? )sitting on the seat together? I don't know why didnt you ask them that You asked them about the presents? I didnt say anything about presents man You got her into your car? when are you saying I got her into my car make your shit more specific Listen to my questions? ask them properly then a- 10, 20 metres from where you pick up,i_ on your version of events? it was about 10 20 metres, thinking about it now it was probably further. I And your version is your car overheated correct? that was my version yes but I aint a fucking mechanic man. And you are then with her in the car for 15 minutes or so? what are you trying to say, just say it, dont dodge around just say it THE COURT: the question is were you in the car with her for 15 minutes? about that yes, not the whole time BRIDGES: you tried to start the car during that 15 minutes on 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 129 your version did you? yes And it wouldnt start? what are you asking me questions you already asked me, no it wouldnt start Does it only start when the police are round? I told you I tried to start it when he was there and it started, trying to say I was fiddling with the keys. Was she weeping the whole time she's in that car with you? she was crying on and off yes Was she blubbering? fuck knows whats blubbering, fuck I just said she was crying on and off How heavy was the crying? I don't know I wasnt paying attn to how heavy she was crying, she was crying man. And 15 minutes later from when you pick her up she's still weeping when Sergeant Thompson arives thats correct isnt it? Yes. You told the Detective she didnt say anything to you over that time? all she said was she wanted her mum. Did you try and comfort her? No I didnt put a hand on her or anything. Did you think to call the police? no I didnt think to call the police at that time plus all the fuck way out there there's no reception on your phone You had a 400 dollar camera cellphone on you didnt you? Yes but did you find any photos on that or did the police. did you delete those? No I didnt delete anything off that phone because I took no photos on that phone You had a photo phone on you didnt you? Ive already answered that question Do you acpt this was an urgent situation you were in? what do you mean by that question urgent situation I was in You had a distressed 5 year old in your car didnt you? Yes she was in my car. Why didnt you walk her to a nearby house? there was no fucking nearby houses, none of that shit was going through my head man. Why did you wait 15 minutes with her in the car? what the fuck else was I supposed to do put her on my back and fly to the Police Station, I left the car for a long time and then started it. You are telling me you were essentially sitting in the car with th elittle girl hanging out waiting? what do you mean hanging out? 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 130 Doing nnothing? pretty much there was nothing else to do, the only car that came was that detective. the whole time I was trying to start the car, I was waiting for the car to start, what are you trying to say say what you want to say There wre no cars around because its a remote little spot isnt it? yes it 15 minhtes in your car alone nwith this little girl was just what Here is what I wantt 0 say Mr Robertson? yeah say you wanted? no did you find any of my dna on her did you find any photos on that, you didnt, you have got nothing all you have got is your fucking word, you have no dna, she is saying this cunt licked her lick, surely if I licked her leg you would have found my dna on her. The reality is you have listened to the evidence, the scientist didnt even find her dna on half the swabs? fuck knows, she didnt find my dna, she even said touching this microphone you would pick up dna and that is from a dry hand surely if someone licked her fucking her leg you would get a little bit of dna out of that Where did you lick her? I didnt lick her Was it kissing? I didnt do anything man, fucking hell my lawyer showed her a photo and she said it isnt him or were you asleep them. What would you have done if the police hadnt come? I would have waitd till my car started and driven her straight to the Police Station like I told them cunts, I said nothing about taking her to school, I don't know where that sergeant got his story from. You knew about her school because thats where you picked her up from? I didnt say anything about her school man, brush your hair back behind your ears so you can hear me. Was the seat back all the way before 3 Were you expecting sleepy passengers? no I wasnt Ij ust dont fuss got in the car? Yes. about that sort of shit, if the seat is down I dont fuss over that shit, it wasnt leaned back that way anyway, I bet one of you cunts leaned it back because it wasnt leaned back that far Photo 39? the seat wasnt leaned back that far, that wasnt how it was when you fellas found the car, thats not how it was when I left the car. So your version is that its not just the family are 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 131 lying? the police are lying thats what Im saying, trying to set me up. I know you's are too, I know thats exactly what you are doing. I've been waiting 8 months to say that, its not coming out as I expected it to, Im sorry about the language man. Was the seat, passenger seat all the way forward as one of the Detectives said in their evidence? all the way back do you mean? No Im not talking about the bit of the chair that goes back on to the back seat but the position of the chair in the car, we've heard from Detective Mike Brown I believe, his evidence was read, that the chair was all the way forward as far as it could go up to the glove box? I don't know, I dont remember that. So do you acpt that could be the case? acpt what could be the case? That the seat was all the way forward Mr Robertson? like I just said I dont remember that. You had the seat down for 2 reasons didnt you? I had the seat down for 1 reason and that was because Jerome put it down when he got in the car on the 14th. You had it down so that the child with you wouldnt be seen? fucking hell correct? no I didnt thats not the reason the seat was down, if you listen to her at all, the seat was down before she got into the car and it wasnt back me you will understand, I didnt put the seat down for the seat was already down before she got into the car, that far anyway. You basically stay in the car that 15 minutes do you waiting for the car to cool down on your version? You have already asked me that question and Ive already answered it So is the answer yes? Ive already answerd that question, thats my answer. I want to be very clear? My answer was very clear, how many times did you ask me and how many times did I answer you. So did you stay in the car for that 15 minutes? in and out of the car. You are accepting arent you that you would have noticed those boxer shorts coming off? Yes if she was taking anything off then I would hv noticed it but she didnt take off in the car when she was with me fucking oath anything Did you take them off? No she said in her statement she took them 10 15 20 25 30 35 Page 132 off so that must have been when she was picked up on Maungatapu Rd, she took them off and put them beside her, so maybe she was holding them when she got in, she didnt take anything off in the car with me man and I didnt take anything off her at all. The reality is you had her take them off didnt you? No I didnt. So that once you had finished the initial playing around? what playing around is that you could advance things further? what do you mean advance things further, like touching her or something is that what you are trying to say? Mr Robertson? What. The car, your car, was parked in a remote area correct? yes. There were no houses around you say? not that I noticed no. Even on your version? I want to go back to your other question, I didnt fucking touch her, I didnt take her boxers off either. Even on your version the seat was a long way down wasnt it? I didnt say my seat was all the way back to the back seat because it wasnt The seat that{j f_ was in was a long way back, a long way down? it was laid down down. Why didnt you put it up for her in that 15 minute period? I wasnt worried about that shit man I wasnt going to go and lean over her you know. You didnt want to put it up so she could sit properly? she sat on the edge of the seat man and I ed to you the fucking seat wasnt back that far anyway She lay on the seat? she didnt lay on the seat, when that sergeant turned up she wasnt laying downon the seat like he said, thats bullshit as well She lay on the seat and you were over like I sd thats fucking bullshit, you she say that in her statement, no she her when the sergeant came? have no proof I did that, did didnt say that in her statement at all, that pig did and he's got no proof its true and neither do you. I return to my question, the car is parked in a remote area, there are no houses around, the seat is back, the seati in is all the way forward and her boxers are in the back you acpt those things dont you? Im not even going to answer that 10 15 20 25 Page 133 question You are refusing to answer the question? yes Im refusing to answr that question because Ive already answered it] you are trying to twist the answer and make it sound had. were you heverous when Sergeant Thompson was at your car? no I wasnt nervous at all, I had no reason to be nervous, just like I had no reason to ask him if I was going to be arrested or hot, 1 don't know where that Shit Came from, just like Im not nervous right now Your position today is that you dont acpt you told Sergeant Thompson you were taking-to Maungatapu school? I didnt say that at all no I didnti Do you remember what said to me, page 7 of your honours notes, when did TDny pick you up? when I was walking to school, so when you wre walking to school what road were you on? Maungatapu, and who was it that picked you up there? Tony? the only way she knew my name was through the officer, I heard her say the police officer said my name, fiona strange said how do you know its Tony said I heard the policeman say that, so what else have they said, and she and she and the read through your notes, can you read to the jury in your notes said its Tony, fellow the same person and that is why she said it, can you where she has been shown the photo and she says not thats not him, she was shown a photo of me the same day this shit happend and she said not thats not me that picked her up on Maungatapu Rd. LUNCH ADJOURNMENT