Case: State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson Transcript of: Grand Jury Volume Date: September 16, 2014 This transcript is printed on 100% recycled paper 515 Olive Street, Suite 300 St. Louis, MO 63101 (314) 241-6750 1-800-878-6750 Fax: (314) 241-5070 Email: schedule@goreperry.com Internet: State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 1 3 STATE OF MISSOURI VS. DARREN WILSON GRAND JURY SEPTEMBER 16, 2014 VOLUME Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 2 I IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY 2 STATE OF MISSOURI 3 4 STATE OF MISSOURI 5 6 7 vs. 8 9 DARREN WILSON 10 ll 12 The following is a hearing before the Grand 13 Jury of St. Louis County, at the offices of St. 14 Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office, 100 15 South Central Avenue, in the City of Clayton, State 16 of Missouri, on the l6th day of September, 20l4, 17 before Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 3 i APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: LUMP FOR THE STATE: Ms. Kathi Alizadeh Ms. Sheila Whirley Assistant Prosecuting Attorneys for St. Louis County 100 South Central Avenue, 2nd Floor Clayton, MO 63105 9 (314) 615?2600 Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 5 i I GRAND JURY HEARING 2 MS. ALIZADEH: Good morning, everyone. 3 This is September 16th, 2014, it is about 8:35 a.m. 4 This is Kathi Alizadeh with the prosecutor's office, 5 Sheila Whirley is present, as well as all l2 grand 6 jurors, and the court reporter is present taking 7 down and recording what is being said. 8 Some housekeeping notes to start. I'm 9 going to pass out to you all, you all are going to 10 receive a copy of a statute. It is section 563.046, ll and it is, it says law enforcement officers use of 12 force in making an arrestwhat is permissible, what force is permissible and 14 when in making an arrest by a police officer. 15 I also want to point out to you, I know 16 you have probably heard or know that there also is a 17 joint federal investigation that's going on at the 18 same time. 19 And several of our witnesses that you are 20 going to hear from are also being interviewed by FBI 21 agents or federal agents. And I want you to make 22 sure you understand the issues that are before you, 23 may be different than the issues in any federal 24 investigation. 25 Their investigation involves civil rights Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 6 i violations. This investigation involves whether I there is criminal liability on the part of the LUMP officer involved in the shooting. So I can't tell you what the law is on the civil rights issues, but don't be confused about, you know, for example, what are the policies of the police department necessarily doesn't have anything to do with your decision. You certainly have the 9 right to know these things if you wish to know these 10 things, but keep in mind that there is a separate 11 and distinct investigation going on by the feds 12 involving civil rights violation or potential civil 13 rights violation. 14 The other thing is, I messed up. I'm not 15 perfect. Sheila will tell you that I'm not, but 16 we've been marking our exhibits and normally when I 17 have a trial I have all of my exhibits beforehand 18 and I mark them all beforehand and I try to be very l9 meticulous about my numbers. I have kind of been 20 marking these as I go. This has all been coming screwed up on the numbers. So I just 22 want to clarify for the record in case you are 23 keeping track of numbers. 24 Apparently I have two Grand Jury Exhibits 25 10 Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 7 So one is Detective photographs, he's the crime scene detective that went to the LUMP hospital and photographed Darren Wilson and the other one is a disc that I played for you that had Dorian Johnson's recorded statement. I'm going to keep photograph as being Number 10 and I am now going to make that disc of statements, it is going to be Number 17. 9 And then apparently I have two Number 9s. 10 One Number 9, I don't know that I have used with you ll all yet. I have marked itprinted photographs that were taken by the morgue l3 personnel, not the autopsy photos that we saw during 14 Dr. testimony. These were separate 15 photos that were taken by the employees at the 16 Medical Examiner's Office in the morgue that are 17 different than the autopsy photos. And those are 18 going to remain Number 9. 19 The other Number 9 I have was a disc that 20 had the news clips on it that we showed where Dorian 2l Johnson had been interviewed or made certain 22 statements on television programs. And so that disc 23 is now going to be Number l6. 24 Unless you all see another issue or 25 problem, I think right now we have 1 through l7. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 8 You might not have seen all of thoseknow I don't have any duplicates other than that. 3 So I'll try to be a little more organized 4 in numbering of the exhibits. 5 Does anybody see any other issues with 6 duplicate numbers? 7 Okay. And then as we told you at the 8 beginning of every day, we are just going to kind of 9 give you a preview of what we are going to do. And 10 so first we're going to listen to a recorded ll statement. The person being interviewed is a 12 sergeant with the Ferguson Police Department, his 13 name is He was the sergeant on duty 14 on the date of the shooting and he was Darren 15 Wilson's direct supervisor. 16 You will hear his statement. It is about 17 an hour long. And then following his statement, 18 Sergeant will be here to testify. 19 After that, we will present the testimony 20 of Detective who is a St. Louis County 2l police detective, regarding an interview that he did 22 of Darren Wilson. 23 And then we are going to present the 24 testimony of Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page FBI agent and she also i 2 did an interview of Darren Wilson. 3 Then we will also present a recorded 4 interview of Darren Wilson for you to listen, that's 5 about 30 minutes. 6 And then finally, I anticipate that the 7 afternoon will have Darren Wilson testifying for you 8 this afternoon. 9 The morning is basically going to be 10 statements that he has made during this 11 investigation from various people and then he will 12 be here to testify and answer your questions in the 13 afternoon, all right? 14 So with that being said, the next piece of 15 evidence is a disc that I have marked as Grand Jury 16 Number 18. 17 (Deposition Exhibit Number l8 18 marked for identification.) 19 MS. ALIZADEH: One of the things that I 20 will tell you that these discs that contain 21 statements of various individuals, I mean, you will 22 hear me use these discs repeatedly because one disc 23 might have 12 witnesses statements on it. I will 24 make sure I preface before we begin to play it whose 25 statement it is. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 10 1 When you put the disc in the computer and 2 open up the file, it lists the names of everybody 3 who has made a statement on that disc. They are 4 pretty recognizable if you would have any need to 5 listen to a particular statement, it would be easy 6 to do that. 7 But there are a number of witness 8 statements on each of these discs, that's the way we 9 received them. 10 Also, we do not have a transcript of this ll first statement. I've listened to it and it is 12 fairly clear. I don't think it should be an issue, 13 but at any time you all can't hear it or want us to 14 go back a couple of seconds or 30 seconds or a 15 minute if you miss something, that's easy enough to 16 do, all right? 17 We are going to play for you Grand Juror 18 Number 18 and it is the recorded statement of 19 Sergeant 20 (Statement is being played.) 2l MS. ALIZADEH: And as always 22 And, again, this was Disc Number 18 that 23 you heard a recorded statement of It 24 will be available for you to listen to again at this 25 time during your investigation. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page II 1 I want to just 2 doublecheck make sure that audio was recorded and 3 the interview took place on August 14th, is that 4 what, I just want to make sure. 5 MS. ALIZADEH: I don't recall. I'd have 6 to listen to it again since I don't have a 7 transcript handy. 8 I thought they said the 9 19th. 10 The date that the ll interview took place. 12 The date, I think it was 13 the 19th. 14 I have the 19th. 15 MS. ALIZADEH: We certainly can put that 16 in and play the very beginning of it again just to 17 clarify the date. 18 Okay. l9 August 19th. 20 Okay. They got it in their 2l notes. 22 I trust her. 23 MS. WHIRLEY: Certainly can ask Sergeant 24 he will be there. 25 MS. ALIZADEH: At any time you can listen Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 12 1 to any parts of these. 2 (Recess) 3 4 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 5 testify the truth, the whole truth, and 6 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 7 deposes and says in reply to oral 8 interrogatories, propounded as follows, to?wit: 9 EXAMINATION 10 BY MS. ALIZADEH: 11 Would you state your name and spell it for 12 the court reporter, please? 13 A My name is 14 Where are you employed? 15 A City of Ferguson Police Department. 16 How long have you been a police officer? 17 A 38 years. 18 Have all of these 38 years been with the 19 Ferguson Police Department? 20 A Yes, ma'am. 21 Where did you get your training to become 22 a police officer? 23 A I attended the greater St. Louis Police 24 Academy in 1976. 25 And do you, are you a certified police Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 13 1 officer? 2 A Yes, ma'am, I am. 3 And do you have to undergo regular 4 training and updates to keep that certification? 5 A Yes, I do. 6 And currently, what is your rank with the 7 Ferguson Police Department? 8 A I'm sergeant of police. 9 How long have you been a sergeant? 10 A December 2002, no, December 2001. ll What are your duties and responsibilities 12 as a sergeant with the Ferguson Police Department? 13 A Currently I'm a squad supervisor. 14 Were those duties similar in August of 15 this year? 16 A Yes, ma'am. 17 2014? 18 A Yes, ma'am. 19 Was Darren Wilson one of the officers that 20 you supervised? 21 A Yes, ma'am, he is. 22 Now, just in the interest of full 23 disclosure, you and I had a conversation yesterday 24 about your testimony today, correct? 25 A That is correct. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 14 1 You've not prepared a report, an incident 2 report in relation to this shooting, have you? 3 A No, ma'am, I have not. 4 So did I have you come in, and you and I 5 talked about what you knew, what you saw, what you 6 might be able to testify about, correct? 7 A That is correct. 8 And previously you were interviewed by a 9 county detective as well as an FBI agent, an 10 attorney from the Department of Justice, and gave a ll tape recorded statement; is that right? 12 A Yes, ma'am. 13 Now, I didn't play that statement for you 14 yesterday, did 15 A No, ma'am. 16 And since you gave that statement, have 17 you ever heard that recorded statement again? 18 A No, ma'am. 19 And do you think that the events of 20 August 9th, 2014, are still clear in your mind? 2l A Yes, ma'am. 22 So that day we've heard, we know a little 23 bit about the shift and how many officers were 24 working that day, Darren Wilson was working on your 25 squad that day; is that right? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 15 i 1 A That is correct. i 2 And his shift would have been from 6:00 3 a.m. to 6:00 4 A Actually 6:30 a.m. to 6:30 p.m. 5 Is that the entire squad has that same 6 shift; is that right? 7 A That is correct. 8 And we know that you received a call at 9 some point to go to the area of the Canfield Green 10 Apartments; is that right? 11 A Yes, ma'am. 12 And at the time that you received that 13 call, you were on duty; is that right? 14 A Yes, ma'am. 15 And you were actually at a call at that 16 time, correct? 17 A Yes, ma'am. 18 Did you know what the nature of why it was 19 that you were being asked to respond to that scene? 20 A No, ma'am. 21 Is there any kind of code that your police 22 department uses to indicate that there's some kind 23 of critical incident that may have occurred? 24 A We have a code, J?l would be immediate 25 response. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 16 i 1 Now, is Ferguson Police Department 3 2 dispatched by their own dispatchers? 3 A Yes, ma'am, we have our own dispatching 4 staff. 5 I want you to make sure you keep your 6 voice up so everybody can hear you because with the 7 fans sometimes it is kind of hard. That mike is 8 recording, it is not necessarily amplifying your 9 voice, okay? 10 A Understood. ll So you don't go through county's dispatch, 12 you have your own dispatching system, correct? 13 A Correct. 14 And are you aware that on your radios you 15 can get county dispatch channels? 16 A We have several various channels on our in 17 car radios and on our walkie?talkies. 18 As you are dressed today, you have a 19 uniform on, is that how you would have been dressed 20 that day? 21 A was in short sleeves and no tie, but 22 yes, ma'am. 23 And I see that you have a mike that is 24 clipped to your epaulet on the shoulder of your 25 uniform shirt? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 17 1 A Yes, ma'am. 2 Is that how you carry that all the time? 3 A Yes, ma'am. 4 And is there, is that mike attached then 5 to a portable or mobile walkie?talkie? 6 A Yes, it is. 7 And does that radio on your belt have the 8 same channels or can it get the same channels that 9 your police vehicles can get? 10 A That is correct. ll And so when you're on duty, is there a 12 particular channel that you just stay on so that you 13 can hear the radio traffic and what's going on in 14 Ferguson? 15 A We have a primary channel and we are 16 usually on that during our work shift. 17 What's the primary channel? 18 A The frequency? 19 Is there a number like? 20 A It is Channel 1. 2l Okay. Let me ask you this. When there 22 are officers out in the City of Ferguson patrolling 23 and an officer uses his radio on Channel 1 and says 24 something regarding a call or just anything, hey, 25 I'm going out of service, I am going to go get Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 18 1 dinner, does everybody that's carrying a 2 walkie?talkie hear that then? 3 A Not necessarily. 4 Do you know why that is? 5 A Well, the walkie?talkies are only 5 watt 6 transmission power. If they are out in the far 7 sector or far enough away from a receiver, not 8 everybody will hear it. Dispatch will hear it 9 because the receivers will transfer that message to 10 them, but not necessarily broadcast it out through ll the entire area. 12 Okay. Now, you now know as you sit here 13 today that there was an incident that occurred at 14 the Ferguson Market shortly before this shooting 15 incident involving Officer Wilson, you now know 16 about that, correct? 17 A Yes, I do. 18 That day when you were in service and on 19 duty, did you hear any radio calls involving a 20 larceny in progress or that there was officers 21 responding to the Ferguson Market? 22 A No, ma'am. 23 And is that, do you think that's because 24 wherever, if there was a call made, that that was 25 just something that you were out of range to Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 19 i 1 actually have heard? i 2 A It could have been because I was tied up 3 with another situation that was trying to deal 4 with. 5 And so is it, and we've all kind of seen 6 this, I think, as you are walking around, you can 7 have the volume turned up on your mobile 8 walkie?talkie so that you hear what's being 9 transmitted, correct? 10 A That is correct. ll Are there times when you might be 12 interacting with somebody or in a situation where 13 you turn that volume down so that that noise doesn't l4 interrupt what you are doing? 15 A Yes, ma'am. Usually when I'm on the 16 telephone or I'm trying to get control of a 17 situation, I may turn the volume down so that they 18 can hear just me speaking. 19 Okay. But at any rate, you didn't hear 20 the call that came out if the call came out that 21 there was something going on or taken place at the 22 Ferguson Market, is that fair to say? 23 A Correct. 24 And then while you were on this call, you 25 did receive a call to respond to the Canfield Green Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 20 1 Apartment complex, correct? 2 A Yes, ma'am. 3 And was there any mention, did that call 4 come to you from an officer or did that come from 5 dispatch? 6 A That came from dispatch. 7 And prior to getting that call, had you 8 heard any transmissions by Officer Wilson? 9 A No, ma'am. 10 And so when you got that call, was there a ll code with that call that meant respond immediately? 12 A was told that was needed at the 13 intersection of Canfield and Copper Creek 14 immediately. 15 Immediately? 16 A Uh?huh. 17 And so did you then finish up what you 18 were doing or did you leave immediately and respond? 19 A I turned the scene over to the first 20 responding officer and I left immediately. 2l So there was, the scene you were at at 22 that time, there was another police officer also 23 working that scene? 24 A Yes, ma'am. 25 And so you left then immediately and Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 21 1 responded to the Canfield Apartment complex? 2 A Yes, ma'am. 3 And about how long, how far away were you, 4 like how many minutes did it take you to get there? 5 A It took me probably about two, two and a 6 half minutes. I mean, travel time, not travel time, 7 but travel distance was probably three quarters of a 8 mile. 9 Okay. So you were really close? 10 A Yes, ma'am. ll And when you got to that location, you've 12 been patrolling the street of Ferguson for 38 years, 13 is that fair to say? 14 A Yes, ma'am. 15 Very familiar with all the streets and how 16 to get around? 17 A Yes, ma'am. 18 When you arrived at that location, did you 19 come in off of West Florissant down Canfield or did 20 you come in like the back way through the 21 Northwinds? 22 A Northwinds Apartment. 23 Did you come in the back way? 24 A No, I came in from West Florissant on 25 Canfield. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 22 I So when you were going down Canfield, at 2 that point you are going east on Canfield? 3 A Yes. 4 I know Canfield kind of winds, isn't 5 necessarily a straight shot, you are heading in the 6 general vicinity of east? 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 Were you in a marked police vehicle? 9 A Yes, ma'am, I was. 10 Did you go to the scene with emergency ll lights and sirens on? 12 A I don't recall. I believe the traffic was 13 relatively sparse at that time, I don't believe it 14 was needed. 15 Okay. So when you arrived at the scene, 16 did you see Mr. Darren Wilson's vehicle? 17 A Yes, ma'am, I did. 18 Did you notice any other vehicles, whether 19 it be police officer vehicles or other just civilian 20 vehicles? 2l A I saw two other police vehicles. 22 All right. I guess for, as far as the 23 police vehicles in Ferguson, we know that Officer 24 Wilson had a Tahoe? 25 A Yes, ma'am. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 23 1 And did you also have a Tahoe? 2 A Yes, ma'am. 3 Are all the police vehicles in Ferguson 4 Tahoes? 5 A Primarily the entire fleet are Tahoes, but 6 we also have a secondary fleet of Crown Victorias. 7 So the two police vehicles that you saw 8 there, besides Officer Wilson, which we've seen 9 pictures of, were those also marked Tahoes? 10 A Yes, ma'am. ll So when you got there, you notice Officer 12 Wilson's vehicle, which direction was it facing in 13 the street? 14 A It was kind of catty?corner to the, or 15 angular to the traffic lane, but it was pointing 16 more in a westerly direction. 17 Towards West Florissant? 18 A Yes, ma'am. 19 And were the lights on on his vehicle at 20 all? 2l A No, ma'am. 22 Siren in his vehicle? 23 A No, ma'am. 24 What about the other two Durangos, (sic) 25 can you describe where those were, were they on Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 24 1 Canfield? 2 A Yes, ma'am, they both were on Canfield. 3 Both of them were further east than Officer Wilson's 4 location. 5 And when you arrived at that location, did 6 you see a body? 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 And was that, where was that body or where 9 were those two police vehicles in relation to the 10 body? 11 A One police vehicle was beyond the location 12 of the body parked across the traffic lane to 13 prevent any vehicle from coming that direction and 14 the second car was parked off to the right side of 15 the roadway. 16 So the vehicle that was, I guess, l7 perpendicular to the street, that would have been 18 farther east of the body; is that right? 19 A Yes, ma'am. 20 And the entire time from the time you got 21 there until the scene was cleared, did you ever 22 observe Officer Wilson's vehicle move or be moved, 23 other than when it was towed away? 24 A No, ma'am. 25 When you arrived there, do you recall was Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 25 i the door to his vehicle, and I'm talking about a 2 Darren Wilson's vehicle, was any of the doors open? 3 A No, ma'am. 4 Did you see Darren Wilson? 5 A Yes, ma'am, I did. 6 Where was he? 7 A He was behind, he was on the driver's seat 8 of the vehicle. 9 Of his vehicle? 10 A Yes, ma'am. ll What about the other officers whose 12 vehicles were at the scene, did you see where they 13 were? 14 A I believe they were in a position to 15 protect the area where the body was located. 16 Now at this time, and I know you don't l7 know when everybody else got there, we know that two 18 officers, obviously, responded prior to your 19 arrival; is that right? 20 A Yes, ma'am. 2l Were those two officers, did you see them 22 interact with Darren Wilson or did you see them 23 talking to him at all? 24 A No, ma'am. And did you, at that point have any crime Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 26 i 1 scene tape gone up? i 2 A No, ma'am, not at that time. 3 And at that point, were there any cones in 4 the street or around the area? 5 A One of the officers had placed a few cones 6 around to indicate location of possible evidence, 7 but not all the cones had been placed out yet. 8 Okay. And I asked you if you noticed were 9 there any civilian vehicles, I know it is an 10 apartment complex and there is parking lots, but I'm ll talking about in the street itself. Were there any 12 civilian vehicles that were stopped in the street 13 when you arrived? 14 A No, ma'am. 15 Did you notice any pedestrians, civilians 16 that were on foot in the area? 17 A There were several pedestrians about the 18 area. 19 When you say several, when you first 20 arrived, give me an idea how many you think, an 2l estimate how many you would say at the sceneOkay. Now, we've heard that there was 24 obviously a larger crowd that gathered during the 25 day and that there was some unstableness in the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 27 crowd, but at this point, were those 10 to 15 people, were they interfering at all, were they LUMP creating a disturbance? A They were making some noise regarding who the body was and it was at that point in time that I grabbed some crime scene tape out of my police vehicle, gave it to the two officers that were already there and told them to start setting up a 9 perimeter to keep people back. 10 And so at this point it is fair to say 11 that you didn't know whose body was in the street, 12 correct? 13 A That is correct. 14 And none of the other officers at this 15 point had identified who was in the street, correct? 16 A To the best of my knowledge, that's 17 correct. 18 And then other people that were gathering 19 in the area, people were wondering who it was 20 because maybe it was someone they knew or a loved 21 one of their's, correct? 22 A Yes, ma'am. 23 So there was some agitation or stress 24 involved with people that were there, they were 25 concerned about who that was? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 28 1 A Yes, ma'am. 2 When you arrived, was the body of Michael 3 Brown covered? 4 A No, ma'am. 5 And so when you first arrived, were there 6 any medical personnel, 7 A I believe they showed up shortly after I 8 did. 9 And did the fire department also show up? 10 A Yes, ma'am. 11 And is that typical that when EMS is 12 called, a firetruck or a rescue vehicle will also go 13 to the call? 14 A It actually depends on the call. If it is 15 a more critical call, such as a life threat, a heart 16 attack, difficulty breathing, yes, they would 17 respond with the EMS personnel. 18 So it is not unusual that on this type of 19 call that the firetruck came too? 20 A Not at all, no, ma'am. 21 There was no fire or anything of that 22 nature, correct? 23 A Correct. 24 Okay. Did those officers then begin to 25 put up the crime scene tape to create the perimeter Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 29 i 1 around the crime scene? i 2 A The two police officers did, no other fire 3 personnel or ambulance personnel. 4 Now, at this point is Darren Wilson still 5 in the vehicle? 6 A Yes, ma'amthe car when you got 8 there? 9 A The only time when I told him to get into my vehicle and leave the ll scene. 12 Okay. So he stayed in his own car until 13 you told him to take your car and go back to 14 Ferguson Police Department? 15 A That is correct. 16 So going back now, we kind of got the 17 scene what it looked like when you first got there, 18 what's the first thing you did when you drove down 19 the street and saw Darren Wilson's car facing you in 20 the street the way it was? 2l A I pulled off onto a driveway apron, right 22 off the street, parked my car and then I walked over 23 to speak with Officer Wilson. 24 So contacting Officer Wilson was the first 25 thing you did? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 30 1 A Yes, ma'am. 2 But from where you were, could you see 3 that there was a body in the street? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 And what did you say to Officer Wilson? 6 A I initially asked him what had happened. 7 Now, you and I talked yesterday about your 8 recollection of Officer Wilson's statement. And we 9 talked about the fact that sometimes when you are 10 recounting a statement, you kind of like use your ll own words to paraphrase? 12 A Correct. 13 We also talked about that police officers 14 have what we call like cop talk, where you use 15 phrases and words that are typical in police lingo 16 or vernacular, wouldn't that be fair to say? 17 A Oh, yes, ma'am. 18 And remember and recall that yesterday 19 when you and I talked about this, it is important 20 for today that you as best you can use Darren 2l Wilson's words, don't try to paraphrase, don't try 22 to put your spin on things. And I know I don't mean 23 that you would do that intentionally, but if he 24 didn't say that it was, you know, forceful or if he 25 didn't use the words, try not to use your own words, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 31 okay? 2 A I understand. 3 And so when you walked up, the best you 4 can recall your words were, what happened? 5 A That's what I asked him, yes, ma'am. 6 All right. And as best you recall, what's 7 the first thing he said to you? 8 A He said I had to shoot him. 9 I asked him why? 10 He said he had been walking in the ll street, I told him to get off the sidewalk, or get 12 on the sidewalk. 13 I said okay. 14 He said well, they told me to fuck 15 off. I slowed my car down, or he slowed his car 16 down and I told him, heythe street and get on the sidewalk. 18 Okay. Now, let me stop you. You're 19 saying I told them, so you are talking as Officer 20 Wilson and that's good. 2l A That is what he told me. 22 That's how I want you to do this. So 23 speak as best you can the way Officer Wilson spoke 24 as if you were Officer Wilson? 25 A Okay. And he said he stopped his vehicle Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 32 and he said the individual laying on the street came up to the side of his car and started hitting on him LUMP through the window. I said hitting you? He goes, yeah, he reached in, he hit me on the side of my face several times, and grabbed at my shirt, grabbed at my hands and arms. He said I was trying to get out of the 9 vehicle and he wouldn't let me out, he kept pushing 10 the door closed. ll The individual reached in and was trying 12 to grab at his pistol, his pistol came out of his 13 holster. He told me he had control of the weapon, 14 but it was being pointed at himhis hand, but the muzzle of the weapon had been 16 turned where his hand was actually turned toward l7 him. 18 And he said he was still getting hit 19 with one hand at times and there was a struggle over 20 the gun. He said the weapon was, he didn't get 21 control of the weapon, but he was able to turn the 22 weapon away from himself and the firearm discharged. 23 He said the gun went off. 24 Is that how he described it, the gun went Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 33 A The gun went offfired a shot? 3 A No, he said the gun went off. 4 Okay. 5 A He said at that point the individual 6 backed up away from the car and Darren thought he 7 actually got shot, he said I think I shot him in the 8 stomach. And I looked at the side of the car door, 9 and there was no exit on the door, it was just a 10 dimple in the sheet metal. ll 1 said what happened then? 12 He said he started runningchase after him. He said he got down 14 about 30, 40 feet from where the car was parked and 15 for some reason the individual stopped and turned 16 toward him. 17 I said okay. 18 He said, at that point he said 19 something to the effect of, you're too much of a 20 pussy to shoot me and turned, he had faced him and 2l started to charge at Officer Wilson. 22 Did Officer Wilson use those words that he 23 started to charge? 24 A Yes, along with, said he had had an angry 25 look in his face or in his eyes and he says I know Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 34 I this man was bigger than me, I wasn't going to be 2 able to fight him. 3 What did he say happened next? 4 A He said he shot him. 5 I asked him how many times? 6 A He says I think four. 7 Now, were you recording his statement? 8 A No, ma'am. 9 Were you taking notes as he was giving you 10 his statement? ll A No, ma'am, I did not. 12 After his statement, did you go back to 13 your department and write down notes to help you 14 recall the statement? 15 A No, ma'am, I did not. 16 So this is from your memory of August 9th 17 as far as what Darren Wilson told you and what you 18 saw, correct? 19 A That is correct. 20 And Sergeant have you been involved 2l in investigations of police officer involved 22 shootings? 23 A Yes, ma'am. 24 Have you investigated those incidents? 25 A Yes, ma'am. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 35 i 1 Have you also been the subject of an i 2 investigation in a police officer shooting? 3 A Yes, ma'am. 4 So you've discharged your weapon at 5 someone in your career? 6 A Yes, I have. 7 And, in fact, the incident that we're 8 talking about was the courthouse shooting involving 9 is that right? 10 A That is correct. ll Were you one of the officers that shot 12 13 A Yes, ma'am. 14 Following that shooting, I don't want to 15 get into the details of that, but were you asked by 16 other investigators how many times you discharged 17 your weapon that day? 18 A Yes, ma'am. 19 And what was your answer? 20 A Three times. 2l And so you thought you had fired three 22 times, correct? 23 A Correct. 24 Did you later after having downloaded your 25 weapon or have your weapon examined, did you later Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 36 i discover how many times you actually did fire that i 2 day? 3 A Yes, ma'am. 4 How many times? 5 A Four times. 6 So on that day, you believed you fired 7 your weapon three times and you discovered actually 8 you fired it four times? 9 A Yes, ma'am. 10 And as you sit here today, do you still in ll your mind recall three shots? 12 A I still recall three shots. 13 And in your experience investigating l4 officer involved shooting, is that unusual that the 15 officer involved in the shooting does not accurately l6 recount the number of shots that he fired? 17 A That is correct. 18 And I know you're not an expert and I'm 19 not going to ask you about the mind of someone when 20 they're going through that scenario, but you've 2l actually been there, correct? 22 A That is correct. 23 You have a unique perspective that 24 probably none of the other witnesses who are going 25 to testify in this investigation have. When you are Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 37 involved in that type of critical scene, what is 2 your focus and what's your training tell you to 3 focus on? 4 A You focus on your target. I'm sorry, not 5 target, but you focus on whose angry at you, whose 6 coming at you or whose trying to harm you. 7 So would it be fair to say that you focus 8 on the threat? 9 A Yes, ma'am. 10 And is it unusual or typical, I guess, ll that you kind of lose focus of other things that 12 might be going on around you? 13 A No, it is not unusual. You get kind of 14 like tunnel vision. You only see, like you said, 15 the threat. 16 All right. And so let me ask you this. 17 When Darren Wilson told you about, for example, he 18 said that there were two men walking in the street 19 and he told them to get on the sidewalk, did he tell 20 you whatever became or happened to that other 2l individual? 22 A No, ma'am. 23 Did you see, we now know Michael Brown was 24 shot dead in the street, did you see the other 25 individual at the scene who might have been the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 38 individual that Officer Wilson saw walking with Michael Brown? LUMP A No, ma'am. Now, understanding how important this initial statement might be, is there a reason why you did not record his statement? A Number one, I did not have a recorder. Number two, I didn't take notes because at that 9 point in time I had multiple things going through my 10 mind besides what Darren was telling me. ll You've already said that before arriving 12 at the scene you didn't even know that this was a 13 shooting, would that be fair to say? 14 A Correct. 15 You didn't hear other radio traffic from 16 other officers saying that there had been a 17 shooting? 18 A No, ma'am. 19 So describe for the jurors how Darren 20 Wilson appeared to you, his demeanor, first of all? 2l A He appeared in a state of shock. He was 22 staring at the dashboard of his vehicle initially. 23 It was only after maybe a couple of questions that 24 he finally looked at me. I could see the side of 25 his face, especially around his mouth starting to Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 39 i 1 puff up and swell. Also the same thing along the i 2 side of his left eye, see a mouse starting to grow. 3 His uniform shirt was disheveled, 4 kind of pulled out of his waistband. 5 Did you notice any blood on him? 6 A No, ma'am, I did not notice any blood on 7 himwas shot or injured? 9 A Yes, I did. 10 What did he say? 11 A He said the only thing that he knew of was 12 his face from being hit several times. 13 And you didn't see anything on him to 14 indicate that he was bleeding? 15 A No, ma'am. 16 And so after you, at this point I'm kind 17 of circling back now. 18 A That's okay. 19 He's told you that he pursued Michael 20 Brown and Michael Brown stopped and turned in his 21 direction and charged him. I'm just kind of 22 catching up. So I know it was in a little more 23 detail and then he shot him and Michael Brown went 24 down on the street? 25 A Correct. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 40 1 What did Darren Wilson say he did then or 2 did he say anything? 3 A He didn't indicate anything other than he 4 called it into the dispatch. 5 All right. Now, when you were there, did 6 you see anyone place a sheet over the body of 7 Michael Brown? 8 A Yes, ma'am, one of the paramedics 9 initially put one sheet over Brown. 10 Did you assist in that at all? ll A Not at that time, no, ma'am. 12 Did that sheet completely cover the body 13 of Michael Brown? 14 A No, ma'am, it did not. 15 Did you assist in getting other sheets to 16 try? 17 A Yes, I asked a paramedic if he had another 18 sheet so I could fully cover Mr. Brown up, and 19 actually he handed me two. 20 Did you observe the paramedics approach 21 the body and attend to the body of Mr. Brown? 22 A I saw one approach the body, bent down and 23 I guess checked for life signs. He got up maybe 10, 24 15 seconds and just walked away. 25 Do you know what a strip is? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 41 1 A Yes, ma'am. 2 What is a strip? 3 A It is a cardiac monitor like you see on TV 4 that indicates heart or no at all. 5 And you've seen paramedics use a strip 6 before on someone that may still be alive? 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 Or check for life signs? 9 A That is correct. 10 Did he do that in this case? ll A They did not. 12 And other than that paramedic who had 13 checked for life signs presumably, did you see 14 anyone else, either law enforcement or any other 15 civilians get close to the body? 16 A There was a, I believe it was a copper l7 projectile about 3 feet from his foot, his right 18 foot and somebody walked over there and put a marker 19 to make sure nobody kicked it or disturbed its 20 location. 21 Okay. So other than that, you didn't see 22 anyone move the body, roll him over, reconfigure the 23 way he was laying? 24 A No, ma'am. 25 And eventually, and you said in your Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 42 statement that you were at the scene until the scene 2 was done, which would have been after 5:00? 3 A It was closer to 6:l5, 6:30, yes, ma'am. 4 And now you are aware then that the body 5 of Michael Brown lay in the street under that sheet 6 for several hours on that day; is that right? 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 Is that, do you know the reason for that? 9 A After I made notification to command 10 staff, I was recontacted and advised that St. Louis ll County would be handling the investigation and the 12 crime scene and I had to await their arrival. Once 13 they arrived, the crime scene was relinquished to 14 them. 15 And then any decision about what would 16 happen with the body, that wasn't your decision or 17 anything you had to do with, is that fair to say? 18 A That is correct. 19 Were you the most senior ranking Ferguson 20 police officer at the scene that day? 2l A Uh, I had two lieutenants show up later on 22 shortly after, maybe around 1:00 or so. 23 Now, you testified that you made 24 notification, who is the first person you called? 25 A Chief of Police. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 43 1 Did you speak with him or leave a message? 2 A I had to leave a message on his cell 3 phone. 4 Who is the next person you called? 5 A Lieutenant Colonel 6 Did you speak with him or did you leave a 7 message? 8 A Left a message for him. 9 Whose the next person you called? 10 A Captain ll Did you speak with him or leave a message? 12 A Left a message. 13 Everybody, it is Saturday afternoon, 14 correct? 15 A Correct. 16 And so then who is the next person you 17 called? 18 A Captain 19 Did you speak with him or leave a message. 20 A I spoke with him. 2l And after speaking with him and telling 22 him what the situation was, did you make any other 23 notifications after that? 24 A I contacted Lieutenant 25 and I believe that was the last contact I made. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 44 All right. Now, you've already said that 2 at some point you told Darren Wilson to get into 3 your vehicle and go up to the Ferguson Police 4 Department? 5 A Yes, ma'am. 6 And what was the reason, are you aware 7 that an officer involved shooting, typically the 8 officer remains on scene until investigators come 9 and walk through the scene with him? 10 A Yes, ma'am. ll Why didn't you have him remain at the 12 scene? 13 A The crowd was growing rather rapidly. 14 They were very agitated and for the safety of the 15 officers on the scene and for Officer Wilson, I had 16 him leave and go to the police departmentyour vehicle and go 18 to the police department? 19 A Yes, ma'am. I left his vehicle where it 20 was, where I found it and told him to take my car 2l and go back to the station and wait for a 22 supervisor. 23 And after he got out of his car, did 24 anyone, did you enter his vehicle? 25 A No, ma'am. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 45 i I Did you look inside the vehicle? 2 2 A Yes, ma'am. 3 And why were you looking inside the 4 vehicle? 5 A Just to see what I could see. If there 6 was possible evidence or anything like that. 7 Did you notice glass inside the vehicle? 8 A Yes, I did. 9 Did you notice any bullet holes inside the 10 vehicle? II A I saw a bullet into the door panel of the 12 driver's side door, yes, ma'am. 13 Did you see any shell casings inside the 14 vehicle? 15 A No, ma'am, I did not. 16 Any blood inside the vehicle? 17 A No, ma'am, I did not. 18 Now, to be clear, you're not actually a 19 crime, you're role is not to document the scene and, 20 you know, you knew other officers were going to be 21 processing that vehicle, didn't you? 22 A Correct. 23 In fact, I think in your statementpart of your job place cones or other 25 markers around pieces of evidence if you see them, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 46 i I correct? a 2 A Yes, when I got the crime scene tape out, 3 I had obtained some traffic cones from another 4 responding officer's vehicle, I marked a few items 5 that I could. 6 And you knew that another officer then was 7 going to document those items, correct? 8 A That is correct. 9 After Darren Wilson left the scene, did 10 you see him again at all that day? ll A No, ma'am, I did not. 12 Now, we've heard that you said in your 13 statement that you had contacted Darren Wilson after 14 this time, after this date just to say hello and how 15 you doing; is that right? 16 A Yes, ma'am. 17 Have you and he ever since that day had a 18 detailed conversation about what happened? 19 A After his interview and my interview with 20 Justice and FBI and U.S. Attorney and St. Louis 2l County, he asked me if he could tell me everything 22 that happened. I told him, yeah. 23 So was this in person or on the phone? 24 A On the telephone. 25 And do you recall, you said it was after Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 47 1 the FBI talked to you? 2 A Correct. 3 And did you only talk to the authorities 4 investigators one time? 5 A Yes, ma'am. 6 And then you said to your knowledge, he 7 had already talked to the investigators; is that 8 right? 9 A I asked him if he had been interviewed by 10 them yet, and he said he had. 11 And so he told you his version or the 12 story of what happened? 13 A Yes, ma'am. 14 Now, is there anything about this second 15 version, I don't mean to use the word version like 16 it is different or implying that it is different, 17 his second time telling you what happened? 18 A There was some more things that he added. 19 Details that he added? 20 A Yes, ma'am. 21 Was there anything inconsistent with what 22 he had told you previously? 23 A No, ma'am. 24 Now, just to summarize, that day on the 25 scene he told you that he fired or that the weapon Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 48 1 went off? 2 A Correct. 3 One time while he was seated in the 4 vehicle? 5 A Correct. 6 And he didn't describe shooting his gun 7 while he was running after Michael Brownshot at Michael Brown 9 while he was running at him. 10 And then he describes after Michael Brown ll turned around, a series of shots that he fired at 12 Mr. Brown? 13 A Correct. 14 And you said he said maybe I can't l5 remember if you said four or five? 16 A He said he thought he was shot, discharged 17 four rounds. 18 Okay. Now, when you had a subsequent 19 conversation with him, did any part of that change, 20 did he tell you any more details about the number of 2l shots? 22 A No, he said he had learned that he had 23 fired more than four shots. I didn't specifically 24 ask him a number, but he said he was told that he 25 fired more than he thought. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 49 i 1 Okay. so you didn't talk with him about i 2 how many shots were in the vehicle, how many shots 3 were out of the vehicle, whether there was a pause 4 and then more shots or anything like that? 5 A That is correct. 6 Were there any details in this second 7 conversation with him that are or changed the 8 perspective that you have about what happened? 9 A No, ma'am. 10 Is there anything, so you had an ll additional conversation with him about what 12 happened? 13 After that, did you have any other 14 conversation with him about what happened? 15 A No, ma'am, not about what happened, but I 16 have had other conversations with Officer Wilson. 17 Okay. And Officer Wilson is still on 18 administrative leave; is that correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 MS. ALIZADEH: Does anybody have any 2l questions? 22 MS. WHIRLEY: I have a few, this is Sheila 23 Whirley. 24 (By Ms. Whirley) Have you ever appeared 25 before this grand jury before? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 50 1 A Multiple times. 2 This particular grand jury that is sitting 3 here today to your knowledge? 4 A No, ma'am, no. 5 You have not? 6 A Not before this grand jury, no, ma'am. 7 All right. Regarding Canfield Green 8 Apartments, you have been in the community for over 9 38 years. Did you know the relationship that the 10 police had with that community? ll A have responded to numerous calls, I've l2 assisted numerous calls over there. 13 Was it known what the relationship was 14 between the community and the policesquad and myself is 16 concerned, every time we responded over there, we 17 responded for whatever the call is, we handle the 18 call and we left. 19 Was it a relationship that was friendly or 20 did the residence 2l A Business relationship. 22 Business. 23 A A business relationship. I mean, some of 24 the officers knew tenants and whatnot from previous 25 encounters. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 51 1 Okay. So there was no understanding that 2 the residents just hated the police, it wasn't like 3 that? 4 A No, ma'am, no. 5 So when Officer Wilson, well, first of all 6 you said you did not hear him ask, announce on the 7 radio that shots were fired? 8 A No, ma'am. 9 At any point? 10 A No, ma'am, I did not. ll You did not know that a shooting had even 12 occurred until you were told to go there? 13 A Until I arrived on the scene is when I 14 first learned there were shots discharged by an 15 officer. 16 How did you get the call to go to the 17 scene, what were you told? 18 A I was told I was needed at the 19 intersection of Canfield and Copper Creek as soon as 20 possible or immediately. 21 Nobody said what for? 22 A No, ma'am. 23 Okay. Did Wilson ever tell you that, 24 because you said you have talked to him a couple of 25 times since this has occurred? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 52 A Uh?huh. 2 And in more detail recently, your last 3 talking was more in detail, correct? 4 A My last conversation with Darren was about 5 ten days ago maybe. 6 He was a little bit more detailed over the 7 phone during that conversation? 8 A During the conversation that I had with 9 Darren was probably five or six days after the 10 incident. ll Okay. 12 A That's when he was more, a little bit more 13 detailed. 14 More detailed. Did he talk about anything 15 about the stealing that occurred at Ferguson Market 16 that he was stopping these two to investigate that? 17 A He said he did not have that call, that 18 call I later found out was given to Officer 19 20 Did he know about it, did he talk about 2l knowing about the stealing? 22 A He did not know anything about the 23 stealing call. 24 He told you he did not know anything about 25 the stealing? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 53 A He did not know anything. He was out on 2 another call in the apartment complex adjacent to 3 Canfield Green. 4 Okay. And so when he's stopping these two 5 it is strictly about the sidewalk, it has nothing to 6 do with him investigating the stealing of 7 Cigarillos; is that correct? 8 A That is correct. 9 Did he indicate that he was angered at all 10 when he was told to fuck off? ll A Well, no police officer likes being told 12 that. I don't think he was angered as much as he 13 was just taken aback by it for no reason whatsoever. 14 Is that like a sign of disrespect, I would 15 feel disrespected if somebody told me to fuck off? 16 A You know, respect toward the police 17 nowadays is not like it used to be. Most of the 18 time it is under their breath or just barely within 19 earshot, but evidently at this point in time it was 20 told quite directly at him. 2l Okay. Did Wilson indicate, Officer Wilson 22 indicate that when he chased Michael Brown, that 23 assistance had been called for at that point? 24 A He did not indicate to me, no, ma'am. Did you have any understanding or any Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 54 1 knowledge about how it occurred regarding him 2 chasing after Michael Brown whether or not 3 assistance was on its way or anything like that? 4 A No, ma'am, I don't know. 5 Okay. Now, have you ever known Officer 6 Wilson to discharge his weapon? 7 A Not to my knowledge, other than on the 8 practice range or the firing range at the police 9 department, that's the only time I know he's ever 10 discharged a weapon. ll Have you ever known him to get into a 12 physical altercation with a suspect? 13 A Only when the suspect had initiated the 14 resistance. 15 You do know of a particular incident where 16 that has occurred? 17 A Yes, ma'am. 18 What happened in that situation? 19 A Officer Wilson was able to gain control of 20 the individual and put him in handcuffs before 2l assistance arrived. 22 Was he alone? 23 A Yes, ma'am. 24 Do you know what transpired why there was 25 even a physical altercation? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 55 i A It was a suspicious vehicle call, occupied a 2 suspicious vehicle. And when he walked up to the 3 car, he could smell an odor what he associated with 4 marijuana and he told the driver to get out of the 5 car, at which time he did. When he was trying to 6 take him into custody is when the resistance 7 occurred. 8 That's the only occasion you are aware of? 9 A He's had minor ones with other officers, lO exactly who, how it started, you know, I know of one ll where an individual resisted the arrest with Officer 12 Wilson and another one of my officers and the 13 subject ended up having to be tasered in order to 14 comply with the officers. 15 Did Officer Wilson use a taser? 16 A No, ma'am, he did not carry one. 17 It was known that he did not carry a 18 taser? 19 A That is correct. 20 It wasn't required that he carry a taser? 2l A No. 22 What about mace, did you know of an 23 incident where he maced an individual? 24 A Never. 25 MS. WHIRLEY: Anybody else have any Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 56 i 1 questions? Go ahead. 3 2 My 3 question is, did Officer Wilson, did he state 4 specifically that it was Michael Brown that made 5 those derogatory or offensive comments to him or did 6 he indicate if it was Dorian Johnson? 7 A He did not indicate to me who made the 8 comments, ma'am. 9 I see. 10 I've got a ll couple questions. Did Officer Wilson indicate at 12 all that he said anything to Michael Brown as he was 13 chasing after him? 14 A He yelled at him to stop or halt, but 15 nothing more than that. 16 Are those the words he 17 used stop, halt? 18 A I don't know, I believe he just told him 19 to stop. 20 Okay. Did he indicate at 2l any point when he, right after he had first contact 22 with him and told him, asked him to get out of the 23 street, that at any point he had to reverse his car 24 back towards them? 25 A I believe he did go backwards, reverse his Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 57 automobile for a short distance, then stopped. Asked them again to get out of the street. LUMP Okay. MS. ALIZADEH: Sergeant I just want to clarify. I know you know things about what happened, I want to make sure that we're clear on this. Are you saying that you know that that happened because you've since learned that, or are 9 you saying that Officer Wilson that day told you 10 that he reversed his vehicle? ll A Officer Wilson did not tell me that day 12 that he had to do that. 13 MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. 14 A I've learned that through a later 15 conversation. 16 (By Ms. Alizadeh) So when we talk about 17 things that he says he did, I want to make sure it 18 is clear to everybody, you know, to clarify whether 19 or not it is something that he knows happened 20 because of subsequent investigation or if it is 2l something that Officer Wilson said to you. 22 I also want to clarify something else 23 and I'm sorry to interrupt, but it is along the same 24 lines. You testified that when Sheila asked you 25 some questions, Miss Whirley, that Officer Wilson Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 58 did not know about the stealing that was going on or had just occurred at the Ferguson Market. LUMP Now, my question to you is this, are you saying that because he told you he didn't know about it or you saying that because he didn't mention it to you when you were talking to him? A He did not mention it to me again. I learned about it at a later time. 9 10 anything about what happened up at the Ferguson Has he ever told you, yeah, I didn't know ll Market? 12 A Yes, he has told me that in subsequent 13 conversations. 14 He told you he didn't know about there 15 being a stealing at the Ferguson Market? 16 A Correct. 17 Okay. l8 Just one last follow?up, 19 Did Officer Wilson at any point say 20 anything or infer at any time that maybe he thought 2l that Michael Brown was under some type of influence 22 of something? 23 A No, sir, he did not. 24 . My 25 question goes back to Officer Darren Wilson's first Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 59 i call to dispatch, which initiated a call to you. a You know, I understand from watching the news when LUMP someone calls 911, the recording is timestamped and there is an audio recording. In this instance or in a regular instance, when an officer calls dispatch, is there any sort of timestamp or recording, or secondary recording so we would know exactly what that call would be or when that call took place? 9 A Yes, all of our incoming calls, including 10 radio traffic, is recorded digitally. That would be 11 available to the investigators through our 12 communications supervisor. 13 Are you aware of what that 14 original call would have been when he called? 15 A His original call? 16 Uh?huh. 17 A I have since learned what it was, is that 18 what you want to hear? 19 Sure. 20 A It was a sick case on Glenark was the 21 street. Again, next apartment complex over is 22 Northwinds Apartments and Glenark is small, like 23 eight apartments on that street. He responded to a 24 sick case at that location. 25 . Again, my Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 60 apologies, I might not have made myself clear. 2 After the shooting of Michael Brown, was 3 that call when he dispatched that first call, was 4 that again recorded that you would have known what 5 the call would have been for him to call dispatch 6 and say XYZ happened? 7 A Yeah, I believe the answer to that 8 question would be yes. When he called it into 9 dispatch, he would have probably told them what was 10 going on and what happened. ll MS. ALIZADEH: I'm sorry, just so you all 12 know, we have radio calls that we'll be playing for 13 you at some point in this investigation. 14 MS. WHIRLEY: Let me follow?up on that 15 real quick. 16 (By Ms. Whirley) Do you have any knowledge 17 that there was a radio call that has been recorded 18 and seized that where Darren Wilson is saying shots l9 fired, asking for assistance before he gets out of 20 the car or around the time this is happening? 2l A No, ma'am. 22 There is no recording that you know of 23 that exist? 24 A I know there is one exist. You do? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 61 A Yes. 2 Okay. Do you know where we might get it? 3 A The communication supervisor at Ferguson 4 Police Department can provide it to you. 5 Okay, all right. Thank you. 6 MS. ALIZADEH: Sergeant just to 7 clarify, have you ever heard the radio calls, have 8 you ever listened to them? 9 A No, ma'am. 10 (By Ms. Alizadeh) So it is important that ll you testify about your own personal knowledge and 12 not what maybe somebody has told you that you 13 believe. Would it be fair to say that you don't l4 know what those calls consisted of because you have 15 never heard them, right? 16 A I don't know what the calls consist of, 17 that is correct. 18 And maybe somebody told you that there is 19 a call, but you have never heard that yourself? 20 A No, ma'am. 21 Whatever those calls would be, they would 22 have been recorded and burned on a disc for purpose 23 of this investigation, could that have occurred? 24 A Yes. 25 MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 62 1 MS. WHIRLEY: 2 At the 3 beginning when you were speaking, you said an 4 incident report was not filed? 5 A I'm sorry? 6 An incident report was 7 not filed? 8 A I did not complete any report regarding 9 this incident because St. Louis County was handling 10 the entire case. ll In your recorded 12 statement, I believe I heard you talk about a Use of 13 Force Report? 14 A Yes, ma'am. 15 That's different? 16 A That is something different, yes, ma'am. l7 Okay. At the beginning 18 of your statement here you talked about a code, is 19 that J?l? 20 A There's radio code for immediate 2l assistance. 22 Okay. 23 A That's J?l. 24 Okay. When you get 25 those, you don't if an officer that's down, a Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 63 civilian that's down or something in progress. You 2 just know you are needed somewhere right away? 3 A Correct. 4 You didn't use your 5 lights or your siren? 6 A No, ma'am. Like I said, the road traffic, 7 I had pretty much of a clear lane to get there. 8 Okay. And do all the 9 officers have mikes on their uniform or the radios 10 in the car? ll A We all have radios in the car. 12 Okay 13 A Majority of the officers wear their mikes 14 up high so that they can hear it and respond 15 relatively quickly. l6 And you say that Officer 17 Wilson was in his car with the door shut when you 18 arrived? 19 A That is correct. 20 Okay. This is the first 2l time we heard about too much of a pussy to shoot me. 22 In your recorded statement, we didn't hear that. 23 Did you learn of that after your recorded statement 24 or is that just something that you are recalling 25 now? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 64 A I recalled that since my recorded 2 statement. 3 Okay. 4 A But I believe my recorded statement was 5 taken three or four days after the event. 6 Okay. 7 A I was working 12 plus hours a day. 8 I understand. Is it 9 still, you still stay with the fact that Michael 10 Brown had his hands up and was charging? ll A That's what Darren told me he was charging 12 at me. 13 This question is not 14 meant as any disrespect, but your recorded statement 15 you said that, um, you have to ask stupid questions 16 like how this could be prevented? 17 A I'm sorry? 18 In your recorded 19 statement you said that you are required to ask 20 officers stupid questions like how could this 2l incident be prevented? 22 A That's on the injury report. 23 You feel that's a stupid 24 question because you feel your officers don't have 25 any other choice? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 65 i A Correct. 3 2 When you are in that kind 3 of situation? 4 A When you are physically attacked 5 unprovoked, I believe how could he prevent this is a 6 stupid question. 7 Okay, I'm done. 8 MS. WHIRLEY: 9 . Several 10 questions. ll A Yes, ma'am. 12 My first question is, when l3 he was alone, when he left the scene of the crime, 14 Officer Wilson, why was he left alone, why didn't 15 another officer escort him back to the police 16 department? 17 A There was another police officer on light 18 duty at the police department who could sit with 19 him. 20 Say that again? 2l A There was another officer who, 22 station 23 bound. So there was an officer there who could sit 24 with him until a supervisor got there. 25 My question is, why wasn't Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 66 i 1 he escorted by another PO considering that even i 2 though he left the scene of the crime, that someone 3 could have noticed him and followed him, but yet he 4 wouldn't of had any backup or protection, he still 5 would have been left alone? 6 A I had, let's see, Darren made, Darren made 7 my sixth officer for the day and that includes 8 myself. 9 I already had three other officers 10 and myself at the scene, I had another officer still ll out on a call. So I only had one officer that was 12 left on the street. I honestly, truthfully, I 13 didn't have the manpower to send somebody with him. 14 Okay. 15 A But yes, you are correct, somebody could 16 have followed him. But also on our radio we have 17 Country Club Hills and Calverton Park. If there 18 would have been a problem, there would have been 19 other officers in the area from those two agencies 20 that could have responded. 2l Okay. My next question 22 was or is, I seen pictures of the car, Officer 23 Wilson's car. I only seen a little shattered glass 24 that was on his driver's side seat? 25 A Uh?huh. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 67 1 Did he ever mention that 2 the glass was half cracked, half down, or all the 3 way down? 4 A He never told me what the window position 5 was, ma'am. 6 Okay. My last question 7 is, after the incident, the crime was over and you 8 had time to go back to your office, did you ever 9 think to read Officer Wilson's history prior to 10 coming to your department or when he came up under ll your leadership to understand his previous history? 12 A Anything that happened prior to his 13 employment should have been covered by the officer 14 who did his background investigation. 15 Now, I don't know who did his 16 background investigation preemployment. I did speak 17 with his supervisor prior to him coming to my squad l8 and ask what kind of officer he was. And I believe 19 I was presented with a few training certificates 20 that he had obtained while he was on the other 2l squad, but there were no corrective measures or any 22 disciplinary notes or anything such as that in what 23 was given. 24 MS. WHIRLEY: 25 How many Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 68 officer involved shootings occurred in Ferguson say 2 in the last ten years? 3 A Last ten years? 4 Yeah? 5 A I believe one, maybe two. 6 So they're a rare 7 occurrence and not an every day 8 A They are very rare occurrence, sir. 9 Okay. Thank you. lO Is it ll standard procedure basically for only one officer to 12 be on patrol at any given time by themself or do you 13 do double duty where there is two officers so you 14 have a ready backup in case of a situation that 15 inflames? 16 A On a perfect day I would have seven 17 officers out there. 18 Uh-huh. 19 A have four assigned sectors, which would 20 be three cover cars to assist plus myself. 2l Uh?huh. 22 A So basically we would have two officers 23 respond to most every call depending on what the 24 call is naturally. 25 Yes, ma'am. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 69 i 1 I just need i 2 clarification. Did Officer Wilson have blood on his 3 hands? 4 A I did not see any blood. 5 Okay. In the written, in 6 the recorded statement we learned that he washed his 7 hands because there was blood on them and he was 8 checking for injury or the spread of infection? 9 A Whose recorded statement? 10 Your recorded statementsomething I learned after 12 that day. 13 All right, thank you. 14 . Also to 15 clarify. I want to make sure when you told Officer 16 Darren Wilson to get in your vehicle and go back to 17 the Ferguson Police Department, at that time he was 18 still currently wearing his uniform he had on at the 19 time of the incident and his gun was with him when 20 he went back to Ferguson? 2l A His sidearm, yes, he carried his side arm 22 back to Ferguson holstered. 23 And at that point, I 24 guess, you were at the scene, you wouldn't have 25 known what happened to that gun or who would have Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 70 1 processed it or his clothes or anything because you 2 were at the scene? 3 A At that point in time, no, sir, I would 4 not know. 5 Okay. 6 MS. ALIZADEH: Any other questions? 7 MS. WHIRLEY: I just have one. Whose 8 decision was it to call county in to investigate? 9 A It was the chief of police's decision. 10 (By Ms. Whirley) This is pretty standard 11 when there is a shooting, you say you have been 12 involved in a few shootings, do you generally have 13 another department investigate it or do you 14 investigate it yourselves? 15 A One of the previous, or the one, I should 16 say the two that I investigated, we investigated 17 them. This one, well, the first two were only, they 18 were not mortal wounds, they weren't fatalities. 19 I believe the chief made that 20 decision because of, it would be better to have an 21 outside agency such as county or state police to do 22 the investigation to show that we were not trying to 23 hide or cover up anything. 24 MS. WHIRLEY: Okay. 25 (By Ms. Alizadeh) Sergeant I know Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 71 1 you've said to me at least before, I can't remember 2 if you testified today that you don't recall what 3 time you got up to the scene, the time it was? 4 A Correct. 5 But assuming that we know that the 6 shooting occurred somewhere like a quarter after 7 noon, give or take a few minutes, but I'm just 8 trying to use that as a reference, how long was it 9 before you saw county officers responding up at the 10 scene? 11 A Uh, I believe the first one arrived on the 12 scene anywhere from an hour to an hour 15. 13 So were you privy to the decision to call 14 county into the investigation, were you talking with 15 the superiors when that decision was made? 16 A No, ma'am. 17 So whoever made that decision, you don't 18 know when that decision was made? 19 A That is correct. 20 But you were at the scene for about an 21 hour to an hour and a half you said? 22 A Hour 15, yeah. 23 Before you saw county arrive? 24 A Correct. 25 MS. WHIRLEY: I have one last question. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 72 1 In your statement to, I guess it was Officer 2 who did you give a statement to that was 3 recorded? 4 A Detective 5 MS. WHIRLEY: Okay. 6 A And, I believe, Detective 7 MS. WHIRLEY: Okay. I believe you said in 8 that statement that Officer Wilson told you that 9 Michael Brown took off running and then he stopped 10 and raised his arms and charged him? ll A Yes, ma'am. 12 MS. WHIRLEY: Did he indicate to you how 13 he raised his arms, how Michael Brown raised his 14 arms? 15 A May I stand up? 16 MS. WHIRLEY: Sure. 17 A It was like this, like he was going to 18 charge at him. (indicating) 19 MS. WHIRLEY: Okay. So he raised his arm 20 in a charging motion? 21 A Correct. 22 MS. WHIRLEY: Did he say at that time he 23 shot him? 24 A He told me when he took the step forward. 25 MS. WHIRLEY: He shot him. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 73 A He knew he couldn't fight this man. 2 MS. WHIRLEY: Okay. So at the time when 3 he had his hands raised and he was charging at him, 4 he shot, but it wasn't at that time he didn't have 5 his hands like going for a weapon. 6 A I don't remember, I don't recall. 7 MS. WHIRLEY: Okay. All right. 8 A Yes, ma'am. 9 . Did 10 Officer Wilson ever say he saw any blood coming from ll the victim? 12 A No, ma'am. Yes, sir. l3 . When 14 Officer Wilson discharged his weapon, did he say how 15 close they were in proximity, how close they were? 16 A No, sir, he did not. 17 . You 18 mentioned before that protocol that all officers 19 would go to the FTO, the field training. And in 20 that, do the officers are they ever taught in a 2l situation, maybe similar to this, to shoot to injure 22 instead of shooting to kill? 23 A You shoot to neutralize the threat. 24 MS. ALIZADEH: Any more questions? 25 Finally, Sergeant the last thing I Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 74 I want to ask you, is there anything that you think 2 this grand jury should know about this incident or 3 that you know that maybe we didn't ask you. I don't 4 want anybody walking away from here saying well, 5 they never asked me that or anything like that. Is 6 there anything that you think would be important for 7 this grand jury to know that you haven't told them 8 yet? 9 A I've worked with Officer Wilson for two 10 and a half years. He's been under my supervision ll that long. 12 Darren is a very easy going 13 individual, always has a smile on his face. Doesn't 14 go trying to start trouble or look for trouble, does 15 a good job. 16 I have very little supervisory hours 17 dedicated to Darren Wilson. He knows his job very 18 well and he does it very well. 19 My opinion, put in this 20 circumstances, I don't know what I would have done. 2l I probably would have done the same thing. 22 So, I mean, Darren did not just all 23 of the sudden go from trying to chase this guy down 24 and take him into custody to deciding just to shoot 25 him because. So, I mean, Darren is a good officer. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 75 i 1 MS. ALIZADEH: Anybody have anything else i 2 that they want to him? 3 All right, thank you Sergeant 4 (Completion of Sergeant testimony.) 5 6 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 7 testify the truth, the whole truth, and 8 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 9 deposes and says in reply to oral 10 interrogatories, propounded as follows, to?wit: ll EXAMINATION 12 BY MS. WHIRLEY: 13 Detective, spell your name for the court 14 reporter, please? 15 A l6 17 All right. Detective you are a 18 police officer with St. Louis County Police 19 Department; is that correct? 20 A That is correct. 2l How long have you been a police officer? 22 A Approximately eight years. 23 And you are currently a detective, so how 24 long have you been a detective? 25 A Two and a half years as a detective. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 76 i 1 Have you always been with St. Louis County i 2 Police Department? 3 A Yes. 4 And you are a certified police officer? 5 A Yes. 6 What does that mean? 7 A That means that I've accomplished the 8 training required by the State of Missouri to be a 9 commissioned police officer. 10 You must have ongoing training? ll A Correct. 12 And you have the power of arrest in the 13 State of Missouri? 14 A I do. 15 Okay. Now, you know why we are here? 16 A I do. 17 Okay. So tell us how you became involved 18 in this investigation? 19 A Prior to this incident that we're here 20 today on, I was called in to work to assist with an 2l investigation that occurred, it was an attempted 22 robbery that occurred at St. Anthony's Hospital on 23 August 9th, 2014. 24 Okay. Go ahead. 25 A While I was there, we were finishing up, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 77 and my sergeant, Sergeant received a 2 telephone call and was requesting our unit to 3 respond to the City of Ferguson and assist with an 4 officer involved shooting. 5 At the time did you know that there was a 6 dead person involved or it was just a shooting? 7 A What I knew that it was just an officer 8 involved shooting. 9 You didn't know who the officer was? 10 A I did not. ll Before I go further, you've testified in 12 front of this grand jury before; is that correct? 13 A Yes, I have. 14 Okay. Unrelated to this particular 15 incident though? 16 A Correct. 17 This is first time you have testified l8 regarding the Michael Brown shooting? 19 A Yes, ma'am. 20 All right. And you have met with Kathi 2l Alizadeh and myself before; is that correct? 22 A That's correct. 23 Regarding this incident? 24 A Yes. 25 Because you are working this incident? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 78 A Correct. 2 Have you developed or written a police 3 report yet? 4 A No. 5 Okay. So you just taking notes as you go 6 or what's going on with that? 7 A Yes, basically we take notes as we go. We 8 transfer that to a memorandum to the case detective. 9 Okay. And that's how you keep track of 10 what's occurring here? ll A Yes. 12 And what was your role as a detective in 13 this case? 14 A Initially I responded to the scene, and 15 the way it works with the information we had at the 16 time, all the detectives assigned to my unit 17 responded to the scene. I believe I was the first 18 car, the first one of the St. Louis County police 19 detectives to arrive, and I made contact with 20 Sergeant who is a county police 2l sergeant, St. Louis County police sergeant, assigned 22 to North County Precinct. He was there within the 23 crime scene, that's the first person I contacted. 24 You said the crime scene, we talking about 25 Canfield Green Apartments? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 79 i A Yes, within the crime scene tape. a 2 Where the body was laying? 3 A Yes. 4 And the police vehicle was positioned? 5 A Yes. 6 All right. And about what time did you 7 arrive there? 8 A I believe the arrival time was 9 approximately l230. 10 For you? ll A For me. 12 And you were the first county officer on 13 the scene? 14 A Yes, I was shortly trailed by the rest of 15 the detective bureau by minutes. 16 MS. ALIZADEH: Let me clarify, you weren't 17 the first county officer at the scene, but the first 18 detective? 19 A Yes, first county police detective 2O assigned to my unit that would be responsible for 2l initiating the investigation. 22 (By Ms. Whirley) Okay. But there were 23 other county officers on the scene when you got 24 there? 25 A Yes, that's correct. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 80 1 Do you recall when you would have gotten a 2 call to respond there? 3 A I believe the time was about l2z40, 12:43, 4 in that area, is when Sergeant received the 5 call. As it was, we were all standing together when 6 he received that call and then after he got done 7 with the phone call, he immediately dispatched us to 8 the area. 9 Now, is it unusual for St. Louis County to 10 investigate a shooting that occurred in another 11 municipalitypretty standard? 14 A It is standard. If we are requested to 15 respond and assume the responsibility of the 16 investigation, we will do so. 17 All right. 18 A If requested to by that department. 19 And that's what happened in this case, you 20 were requested? 2l A Yes, ma'am. 22 All right. Let's go back to what your 23 particular duties were regarding this investigation. 24 A Sure. When I arrived I contacted Sergeant 25 and essentially what Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 81 1 much knowledge as we have at the time. 2 He had advised me that the medical 3 examiner had not been notified yet and that's when 4 requested them to do so. 5 Typically the way that it works with 6 our police department is the personnel from the 7 division of patrol, which would be the uniform 8 police officers are responsible for making that 9 notification. 10 So once I found out that that wasn't ll done, I immediately made that request. 12 So when you arrived, the medical examiner 13 had not been notified? 14 A To my knowledge, no. Sergeant 15 informed me that they had not been. 16 How about EMS, the emergency personnel? 17 A was unaware if they had responded yet at 18 the time. My main concern was making sure the 19 medical examiner was dispatched. 20 Because when you arrived, it was 21 determined that Michael Brown was dead? 22 A Yes. So if subject is deceased, then the 23 next step would be to contact the medical examiner. 24 Describe the scene when you arrived, you 25 said it was 1:30?ish or so? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 82 A Yes. Describe the scene for us? LUMP A As I arrived, I came down West Florissant and then turned, it would be east on Canfield Road. The entire street was lined with cars, both civilian cars and other police cars from St. Louis County. I believe there was a Ferguson car there and multiple other jurisdictions, to where I was unable to even 9 make it to the actual crime scene. I had to park 10 some distance away, I don't know the exact distance, ll but some distance away and walk up to the crime 12 scene. 13 Which is a little atypical than what 14 we're used to. Typically we drive right up to the 15 crime scene tape, park outside of it and then we can 16 enter the crime scene there. 17 There were multiple people, I can't l8 quantify how many, but people were walking towards 19 that area as I was walking up as well, and that's 20 when I entered the crime scene. 2l Could you hear people talking? I don't 22 want to assume, was there a crowd, are you telling 23 us, a crowed of people? 24 A There were, I would say small pockets of 25 people around the entire crime scene. When you ask Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 83 i about if I could hear anything that was being said, i 2 I just wasn't paying attention to it. 3 Okay. Did you see Darren Wilson at the 4 scene? 5 A I didn't know who Darren Wilson was at the 6 time, I learned later he wasn't there. 7 He was not at the scene? 8 A Correct. 9 Was it your job to make any contact with 10 him? ll A Eventually it was. Essentially what 12 happens in an investigation of any kind, is that the 13 detectives will basically come together and a case 14 detective will be assigned. 15 In this case detective 16 was the case officer. 17 What does that mean, case officer? 18 A He'd be essentially the person that would 19 orchestrate and dole out assignments and be 20 responsible for the investigation as a whole. He 2l would be the one that would be writing the report 22 and like I said, making the assignments for other 23 detectives to do. 24 So you were assisting in the 25 investigation, he was the case agent or officer? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 84 1 A Correct, that's correct. 2 All right. So you said it was going to be 3 your job to make contact with Officer Wilson? 4 A Yes. I was directed by Detective 5 to. 6 Detective 7 A Detective 8 9 works with St. Louis County? 10 A Yes. 11 Darren Wilson who is the 12 officer involved in the shooting? 13 A Yes, Officer Darren Wilson. 14 Okay. 15 16 A Yes, ma'am. 17 So you did, Detective told you 18 to make contact with Darren Wilson? 19 A Yes, he informed me that police officer 2O Darren Wilson was currently at the Ferguson Police 21 Department and then instructed me to respond there 22 and conduct a cursory interview with Officer Darren 23 Wilson. 24 Tell us what is a cursory interview? 25 A Essentially what a cursory interview is it Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 85 a is an interview that is, it is detailed enough to 2 where and the other detectives would understand 3 the sequence of events that occurred. 4 It is to tell us and inform us where 5 evidence might be located within the crime scene and 6 we use that as an investigative tool. 7 Do you tape cursory interviews? 8 A No. 9 Why not? 10 A It is just common practice that we do not. ll It is basically an interview where I would approach 12 the individual, and it is done so even not just a 13 police officer involved shooting, we do them on 14 almost every investigation. Just to understand what 15 that person saw and what happened to better assist 16 us within the scene. 17 So that's kind of the reason we do 18 that. 19 Okay. Was it your responsibility to seize 20 any evidence at the scene? 2l A No. was at the scene for maybe ten 22 minutes and then I was dispatched to Ferguson Police 23 Department. 24 Because you needed to talk to Darren 25 Wilson? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 86 i 1 A CorrectFerguson on your ownyourself you go to Ferguson, what 5 happens then? 6 A Then I enter the Ferguson Police 7 Department. You enter on the street level and then 8 I went upstairs to their common area. I did knock 9 on the door, allowed entry by Lieutenant Colonel 10 who is a lieutenant colonel with the II Ferguson Police Department. And he escorted me back 12 to the Ferguson Police Department detective bureau, 13 which is a room about half the size of this. 14 Was anyone in that room? 15 A Yes, there was Lieutenant Colonel 16 I was then introduced by him to police 17 officer Darren Wilson, an attorney and 18 Detective 19 Do you know what their roles were we know 20 Darren Wilson why you were there to talk to him, do 21 you know what the other folks were there for? 22 A I assume that had just been working that 23 day, I never even asked. It didn't seem important 24 at the time. 25 It wasn't relevant to your investigation Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 87 1 what these other people were doing? 2 A Correct. 3 Did you talk to Darren Wilson in front of 4 these other people? 5 A I made basically just an introduction to 6 Darren Wilson. When I saw him, he was wearing full 7 uniform which consisted of a Ferguson Police 8 Department button down shirt and then dark blue 9 slacks. He then directed my attention to his duty 10 belt, which was off at the time sitting on the 11 floor. 12 I'm going to come back to the duty belt. 13 I want to know you did talk to Darren briefly? 14 A Very briefly, not about the actual 15 incident at that time. 16 At that time, so all the people were 17 allowed to remain or were there with you these other 18 people that you mentioned? 19 A They were. 20 In the same room? 21 A Yes. 22 So where was the duty belt? 23 A It was on the floor next to a desk right 24 next to where Darren Wilson was standing. 25 Did he have on a weapon? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 88 A At the time, no. 2 At that time? 3 A No. 4 Did you see the weapon? 5 A I saw, he had informed me that after he 6 responded to the police station, he had packaged his 7 weapon and then he directed my attention to an 8 evidence envelope, which appeared to be sealed, it 9 was on the desk of Detective 10 You didn't inspect that envelope though? ll A No, I did not. 12 So do you know whether there was even a 13 gun in the envelope? 14 A At that time I did not. 15 But at some time did you find out there 16 was? 17 A I did. 18 So he told you he packaged it? 19 A Yespackaged it or 2l did you discuss that at all? 22 A No. 23 Okay. Did he volunteer why he packaged 24 it? 25 A No Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 89 i 1 Is that uncommon? Have you ever been a 2 involved in an officer involved shooting before? 3 A I have not been involved in one, but I 4 have investigated multiple. 5 Okay. That was a better way to answer, I 6 didn't ask the question right. Because you've never 7 shot anyone, is what you are telling us? 8 A That's correct. 9 But you have been involved investigating 10 those shootings? ll A Yes. 12 Is it customary for the person who was 13 involved, the officer that is involved in the 14 shooting to handle and package their own gun as 15 evidence? 16 A Well, with the St. Louis County Police 17 Department it is something that's not done, however, 18 we were called to investigate another police 19 department's incident. So at that time we were 20 unaware of any policies or procedures they have in 21 place that when we get there basically we have to 22 find out, I guess, and explore the possibility that 23 maybe that's part of their policy. 24 Did you explore that? At that time, no, I did not. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 90 At any time? 2 A No, I did not. 3 So you don't know what their policy is? 4 A Correct, I do not. I just knew that 5 police officer Darren Wilson had told me that he had 6 packaged the weapon and it was currently in that 7 bag. Now, at that point in time I never checked to 8 verify that, it was done later. 9 Okay. In an investigation such as this, 10 ideally what should happen with the officer's gun? ll A The way that, I can only speak to the way 12 St. Louis County would handle it. 13 Sure. 14 A Is that that officer would continue to 15 have his weapon in his holster until a detective 16 from the Crimes Against Person Unit, which is my 17 unit, a supervisor and a crime scene unit detective 18 would conduct what we call a download of the weapon. 19 And that's an inspection of the weapon to determine 20 how many rounds are left inside of the weapon. 2l So what would happen is we would ask 22 the officer to remove his weapon from his holster, 23 the magazine would be ejected, we would count the 24 number of rounds in the magazine, if there are any. 25 Then we would ask him to move the slide to the rear, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 91 1 which would eject a round if it was chambered, and 2 what that means is there would be a round of 3 ammunition in the barrel of the weapon. 4 Okay. 5 A And then that would be photographed as 6 those steps were taking place. 7 Would the gun be returned to the officer? 8 A No, the weapon would then be seized by our 9 crime scene unit detective. 10 Until the investigation? ll A Typically what would happen is that it 12 would go directly to our firearm lab. They do a 13 test fire, inspect the weapon and then at that point 14 it would be returned to the police officer. 15 Okay. So you're at the Ferguson station, 16 you see a weapon, the officer is dressed in his 17 uniform? 18 A Uh?huh. 19 Did you see any blood on the officer? 20 A At that time, no, I did not. 21 Did you see any injuries on the officer? 22 A I did. 23 What did you see? 24 A I could see there was reddening to the 25 left and right side of his jaw and it appeared that Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 92 the right side was swelled, like the cheek 2 area, those are the two injuries that I saw 3 initially. 4 Did he talk to you about any injuries? 5 A No, that's just what I observed when I met 6 him. 7 Just to clarify, I don't know if I've 8 asked you this before, did you know Officer Darren 9 Wilson before this incident? 10 A No, I did not. ll So that was your first time you had 12 encountered him? 13 A Yes. 14 Was at the Ferguson Police Department? 15 A Correct. 16 There was a decision made that he should 17 go to the hospital; is that correct? 18 A That's correct. 19 How did that come about, if you know? 20 A To my knowledge that was a decision made 2l by Lieutenant Colonel 22 When you arrived in Ferguson, were they 23 discussing that he was going to go to the hospital 24 or did that come up while you were there? 25 A From what it appeared, it was a Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 93 conversation that was taking place before and then 2 continued as I arrived. 3 So I heard basically the tail end 4 that Officer Darren Wilson would go to the hospital 5 and get treated. 6 And what did that mean as far as your 7 investigation was concerned? 8 A The way I would handle it with anybody, 9 victim, witness, suspect, anybody that we would talk 10 to is that if they are requesting medical treatment, ll we would do that first, that's more important than 12 any statement we are going to get. And we can 13 continue the statement at the hospital, which 14 happens regularly. That we would follow them to the 15 hospital, meet them at the hospital and then get the 16 statement there while they're receiving treatment. 17 We would never hinder anybody from getting medical 18 treatment if they sought it. 19 So you had ended up going to hospital? 20 A I did. 2l What hospital was that? 22 A Christian Northwest Hospital located on 23 Graham Road in Florissant, Missouri. 24 You didn't ride along with the officer, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 94 A No. 2 Did he drive himself or do you know? 3 A He rode with Lieutenant Colonel 4 those three individuals were in the 5 car at that time and I drove separate. 6 You all arrived at the hospital? 7 A Yes. 8 He's, I imagine, treated? 9 A Yes. If I can just back up one step. 10 Sure. ll A Before we had departed, the Ferguson 12 Police Department, Officer Wilson did remove his 13 uniform shirt and draped it over a chair, which that 14 was essentially in Detective right 15 next to his desk. So that's kind of where the three 16 items that I would consider evidentiary value were 17 located and they were in his custody. 18 Did someone ask him to remove his shirt? 19 A What's that? I don't know if it was done 20 or not, however, he did remove his shirt and he 2l draped it over a chair. 22 The three items you are talking about are 23 the shirt, the belt? 24 A And the weapon. And the weapon, okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 95 i A Yes. i 2 Anything else before we go back to the 3 hospital? 4 A No, ma'am, sorry to go back. 5 No, I'm glad you did that because this is 6 important. So you tell us if I miss something, for 7 sure let us know. 8 A Sure. 9 So you got to the hospital, what happened 10 then? ll A We were escorted to a trauma room and 12 while I was driving there I had contacted Detective l3 and he's with our crime scene unit, I 14 requested him to respond to Christian Northwest 15 Hospital, meet me there to photograph the injuries 16 of police officer Darren Wilson. 17 Did Officer meet you there? 18 A He did. When we arrived, like I said, we 19 were escorted to a trauma room. Initially within 20 the trauma room was myself, police officer Darren 2l Wilson, attorney Lieutenant Colonel 22 and Detective Detective 23 asked Officer Wilson if it was okay for him 24 to photograph him. He agreed and he took several 25 photographs of the apparent injuries to his face, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 96 i neck and the back of his neck. 3 2 So Officer Wilson was cooperative with 3 your investigation? 4 A Yes. 5 I meant to ask you going back and going to 6 come right back to the hospital, when you first 7 encountered him, what was his demeanor? 8 A He was calm, collected. I didn't see that 9 there was any type of debilitating injury to where 10 it would prevent any type of interview, like a head ll injury or something like that. He seemed to be 12 talking, making logical sense and talking like that. 13 So there was no concern that he had 14 some major head injury, I guess, from my own opinion 15 or appearance. 16 He never complained about his head being 17 injured? 18 A Not to the point where he would have not 19 been able to be interviewed. 20 Did he tell you he had a head injury? 2l A No. 22 When you go to the hospital, is his 23 demeanor about the same as it was at the station? 24 A Yes. 25 And he allows Officer to take Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 97 1 pictures of him? 2 A Correct. 3 And how does your interview begin with 4 him, your cursory interview? 5 A Essentially after Detective 6 concluded his investigation of taking the photos, I 7 asked Detective and Lieutenant Colonel 8 to step out of the room as they were to not 9 be present during the cursory interview. 10 What about his attorney? ll A He remained in the room. 12 All right. And why did you ask the other 13 two to step out? 14 A We would, for one, privacy and two, on any 15 interview, it would be a one?on?one interview with 16 myself and any potential victim, witness or suspect. 17 And again, this interview was not 18 videotaped or audiotaped for that matter? 19 A That's correct. 20 So go ahead. 2l A Uh, I initially asked Officer Darren 22 Wilson if he would allow me to interview him. He 23 agreed. 24 During every police officer involved 25 shooting that we investigate, I ask a series of Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 98 1 almost standard questions that begin my interview. 2 Those questions are, were you on duty today? 3 He indicated he was. 4 What was your call sign if you were 5 to call out on the radio? His call sign was Frank 6 21 that day. 7 What sector he was assigned to. 8 Sector 1. 9 What is the beginning and end times 10 for his scheduled shift. He indicated he began a ll shift at 6:30 in the morning and was scheduled to 12 end his shift at 6:30 at night. 13 What he was wearing. He indicated he 14 was wearing the uniform he currently had on and the 15 rest of it what he left at the station. And what 16 vehicle he was assigned that day. He said he was 17 assigned vehicle 108, which he describes as a fully 18 marked Ferguson patrol vehicle. 19 And is it your understanding that that 20 vehicle is actually a truck? 21 A Yes, it was a Chevy Tahoe. 22 How did you get into what happened did you 23 ask him what happened? 24 A Yes. Tell us about that? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 99 i A Basically during the cursory interview, I i asked a very open ended question and allow that LUMP person to just talk. Tell me, from basically start to finish, what happened. And the only time I will really interrupt if I need a clarifying question or something I didn't understand it, I need time catching up writing down what he's saying. I just essentially asked Officer 9 Darren Wilson to describe what happened and where he 10 was at prior to the incident up through the ll incident. 12 He tells me that he was leaving an 13 unrelated sick case call and was driving, it would 14 be west on Canfield Road. As he's driving he hears 15 a call that was not assigned to him for a stealing 16 in progress at 9101 West Florissant Avenue, and he 17 provides us with that address and the nature of the 18 call was a stealing. 19 He said that the call comments 20 indicated the suspect description was a black male 21 wearing a black shirt and brown shorts, and that an 22 additional call comment indicated that taken during 23 the stealing were Cigarillos. 24 Go ahead. 25 A I'm sorry. He continues and says he's Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 100 driving west down, continues west down Canfield Road and he sees two subjects approaching from the area LUMP of West Florissant and Canfield walking in the center of the street. I then ask Officer Darren Wilson to describe the two subjects. He describes one subject as a black male, dark complexion, approximately 5 foot 5, with 9 short dreadlock style hair wearing a black T?shirt. 10 He describes the second male as a black male, medium ll complexion, approximately 6 foot 3, approximately 12 270 pounds, clean shaven, wearing a red baseball 13 style cap, a gray shirt, khaki shorts and yellow 14 socks. 15 Officer Wilson then tells me that as 16 he's traveling west down Canfield Road, he stops his 17 patrol vehicle and allows the two subjects to 18 approach. So basically they're walking towards the 19 front of his patrol vehicle. 20 Did he indicate whether they were walking 21 single file or side by side or anything? 22 A He never did and I didn't ask. He just 23 says they were walking down the center of the 24 street. 25 Okay. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 101 1 A He says at this time his driver's window 2 is down, fully down. The, he allows the subjects to 3 approach and then says to the two subjects. "Hey, 4 why don't you guys walk on the sidewalk." And 5 that's what he quoted, that's the quote that he 6 said. 7 Did he say anything about whether he 8 thought this was a confrontation or it was an angry 9 exchange or did he not refer at all? 10 A He didn't elaborate, he just said that I ll stated. 12 Okay, go ahead. 13 A He says right after he makes that 14 statement, the shorter male says, "we're almost to 15 our destination." And then it's quickly followed by 16 the larger male stating, "the fuck with what you 17 have to say", and he quotes that. And then they 18 continue to walk past his vehicle, which would be 19 east on Canfield. 20 At that point does he say that he 21 investigates these two for stealing Cigarillos, does 22 he mention anything to them about the theft? 23 A He doesn't say anything like that to me. 24 Okay. Go ahead. 25 A Officer Wilson, Officer Darren Wilson then Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 102 1 tells me that he got on his radio and says that he's 2 going to be conducting, notifies his dispatcher he 3 is conducting a pedestrian check and he requests an 4 assist car. 5 He then places his vehicle in reverse 6 and backs up towards the subjects. He places his 7 car in park, I'm sorry. As he attempts to exit his 8 vehicle he says, "hey, come here." That's a quote 9 that he used, "hey, come here." 10 As he's opening his door he feels the ll door get slammed shut and then realizes the larger 12 of the two subjects pushed his driver's door closed. 13 He then tells the large subject to 14 get back and to move, and attempts to open the door 15 a second time. The door is then forced shut again, 16 and he describes that the larger subject is standing 17 at his driver's door with both hands on the door 18 frame of the vehicle like where the window would 19 come up is how he describes it. 20 And then Officer Wilson orders the 21 subject, or the subject to get back again. And 22 those are his words, get back and move is what the 23 two words that he's using. 24 Officer Wilson then tells me that the 25 subject then enters through the opened driver's door Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 103 window with his upper body. And he details it is his upper body and both of his arms. LUMP The subject, according to Officer Darren Wilson, begins striking him in the chin, face, shoulders and chest. As he described it is the subject was swinging wildly. During this time Officer Wilson's trying to deflect the punches with his left hand 9 while giving the subject commands to get back and 10 move and stop. 11 After that, Officer Wilson, he 12 continues and states that subject then reaches 13 backwards with his left hand, and basically removes 14 his left hand and arm from the vehicle and hands 15 something to the other subject and says, "here, take 16 this," is what Officer Wilson says that he hears the 17 larger subject say. 18 He did not, nor did I ask, describe 19 what he thought was handed off, but he said that he 20 handed something. 21 He continues that immediately after 22 the subject says, "here, take this." He then 23 quickly moves his left arm and hand back into the 24 vehicle and then punches Officer Darren Wilson in 25 the right side of the face. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 104 Officer Wilson then tells me that this instantly stunned him and he starts basically LUMP backing away and leaning back. Officer Wilson tells q; me he continues with his left hand and forearm to try to deflect the punches that he's being hit with and then he starts going, as he puts it, through the progression on his belt. He thinks about grabbing his mace, 9 which is situated on his duty belt, however, he is 10 in a seated position and he can't retrieve it and it 11 is on the right side of his belt. 12 He then considers using an asp baton. 13 What an asp baton is, is a retractable baton that's 14 standard issue for law enforcement. He says that he 15 believed that due to the confined space from within 16 the patrol vehicle, that it would be an ineffective l7 tool. 18 And at this point I believe I asked 19 Officer Darren Wilson if he thought he could escape 20 any other way? And he says no. 21 He describes the interior of the 22 patrol vehicle or the Tahoe as having a computer and 23 a radio and a shotgun in the center console, which 24 prevented him from being able to climb over or get 25 out of the passenger side of the vehicle. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 105 i I asked Officer Darren Wilson to 9 continue. He stated that he then used his left LUMP forearm, again, to try to create space between himself and the subject, and then he retrieves his department issued firearm from his holster, which is situated on the right side of his belt. Did he say, or do you know, he said the mace is situated on the right side of his belt and 9 the gun is situated on the right side of the belt, 10 correct? 11 A The mace was on the left side. 12 I thought you said the right side. 13 A The mace was on the left side, his 14 department issued firearm is on his right side. 15 Okay, thank youthen removes his department issued 17 firearm from his holster and begins to raise it and 18 as he's raising it he yells, he said he yelled, stop 19 or I'll shoot. 20 Officer Wilson then tells me the 21 subject then grabs with his hand the top of the 22 slide of the firearm. And he says that his hand is 23 large enough to encompass the top of the slide. The 24 majority of the hand grips and the trigger guard, 25 and that's with Darren Wilson, he says his hand is Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 106 i 1 on it, Darren Wilson's hand is on the weapon. a 2 The subject then responded with, 3 "you're too much of a pussy to shoot me." And that 4 was a quote from Darren Wilson. 5 Did he give you any of his opinions or 6 thoughts about what was going on when he says, "you 7 are too much of a pussy to shoot me," or did he just 8 kind of tell you what happened? 9 A Just told me what happened. 10 Okay. 11 A The subject makes that statement. And 12 then immediately following that statement, the 13 subject then forces the firearm in a downward angle 14 and Officer Darren Wilson tells me he can feel the 15 barrel of his own firearm pressed against his left 16 hip as he is in the seated position. 17 Officer Wilson then continued stating 18 that once he felt the barrel of the weapon pushed 19 into his hip, he was able to shift his lower half to 20 the right and basically get the barrel of the 21 firearm to now be pointed at the seat and off of his 22 hip. 23 He then with his left hand, with his 24 right hand on the gun, on the handgrips of the gun, 25 and he takes his left hand and puts it on the side Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 107 1 of the frame of the weapon. And then is able to 2 push it away from him to where the weapon is now 3 pointed at the driver's door. 4 He says that he then pulls the 5 trigger and nothing happens, the gun misfires. 6 He continues by stating that he 7 believed that due to the subjects hands being on the 8 top of the slide and on the trigger, I'm sorry, on 9 the hammer, that's what caused the gun to misfire. 10 Officer Wilson continues and states ll that he then pulled the trigger again, at which time 12 one round of ammunition was fired. 13 Immediately following that, he sees a 14 large explosion of glass and then looks down and 15 sees what he believed was blood on his hands. He 16 said at that point he didn't know if he was injured 17 or the subject was injured, just knew that he saw 18 blood. 19 Officer Wilson continued that the 20 subject hands were still on the gun and he pulled 21 the trigger two more times and it misfired both 22 times. 23 The subject then reentered the 24 vehicle and assaulted Officer Darren Wilson by 25 punching him several more times in the face and then Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 108 stopped the assault and ran eastbound on Canfield Road away from the vehicle. LUMP So one shot you said was fired inside, while he was sitting inside the vehicle? A Yes. Okay. And he considered, he realized he could not escape, I'm not saying he should escape, ooxuoxo?l he considered that he could go to the left side or 9 passenger side, he was blocked by the shotgun or? 10 A Yes, he describes that there's a computer, ll a large center console with a radio and like the 12 controls to the light bar and siren, and then a 13 shotgun. And there's just no means of escape 14 through the passenger side of the car. 15 But he said he did consider that? 16 A Yes. 17 Did he get over to the other side? 18 A He said he was unable to. 19 He was what? 20 A He was unable to. 21 But he considered that is what you said he 22 said? 23 A Yes. 24 Okay. All right. So go ahead, so now the 25 suspect is running east? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 109 i 1 A Yes. He says that the subject is then a 2 running east on Canfield, and Officer Darren Wilson 3 then exits his vehicle and upon doing so, he says he 4 radioed to his dispatcher that shots were fired, and 5 he continued to exit the vehicle. 6 He says he observed the subject 7 running east on Canfield at which time he pursued on 8 foot. 9 He says after, or during this chase, 1O he's giving the subject loud, verbal commands as he ll puts it, to stop and to get on the ground. 12 Officer Wilson then tells me that the 13 subject then stops and turns around. He estimated 14 the distance was approximately 30 feet from him. 15 So at that time Officer Wilson 16 stopped in the street and then began to order the 17 subject to stop and get on the ground. 18 He continues and tells me that as he 19 turns around, the subject has, as he quotes it, "an 20 intense and look on his face." The 21 subject then takes his right hand and moves it 22 towards his waistband on the right side. 23 Officer Wilson then says the subject 24 screams something inaudible, doesn't know what he 25 said, but just screams something and begins to Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 110 1 charge him. And that's Officer Wilson's word was 2 charge. 3 As the subject is moving towards him, 4 he is giving him, continually giving him commands to 5 stop. As he is backpedaling to try to, as he says, 6 try to maintain the distance between the two. 7 He then continues and states that he 8 knew if the subject were to reach him, that he 9 would, and he quotes, "he would be done." Meaning 10 that Officer Wilson would be done. He knew, he ll immediately stated he knew he was overpowered and 12 assaulted already one time in the vehicle. 13 Officer Wilson continued and stated 14 as the subject got within 15 feet of him, he 15 discharged five rounds of ammunition. He said that 16 this had no effect and the subject continued towards l7 him. 18 Did he indicate whether, did he, he may 19 not have, indicate whether or not any of the five 20 rounds entered the body of Michael Brown? 2l A He did not know, nor did I ask. He just 22 said that the subject continued to come towards him. 23 Did he indicate to you how, when the 24 subject turned around, I think you said that he put 25 his arms some kind of way and charged him? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 111 1 A He says that 2 Can you demonstrate that for us? 3 A I'm sorry? 4 Did he Show you how? 5 A Officer Wilson kind of spoke with his 6 hands and he does demonstrate that the subject 7 Can you stand up and show us, please? 8 A Yes. When the subject turns around, his 9 right and goes to his waistband. Nowhis waistband or he just says to his 11 waistband. 12 And like we kind of covered earlier, 13 the cursory interview is not to get, it is more so 14 for the physical evidence to assist the 15 investigators on the scene. 16 So any clarifying questions would 17 have been done during an audiotaped interviewed, 18 which occurred later on. 19 Okay. Let me show you, but he put his 20 right hand near his waistband? 21 A Towards his waistband. 22 Nothing specific about his left hand? 23 A Doesn't say anything about it. 24 Okay, all right. He lets off, I think you 25 said, five more shots? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 112 A Yes, he says that the first shots were five, he believes it was approximately five rounds LUMP of ammunition and the subject continued towards him. He then discharged two additional, approximately two additional rounds of ammunition, and he said those had no effect and the subject continued towards him. He then states that the subject 9 started to lean forward and to Officer Darren Wilson 10 appeared that the subject was attempting to tackle ll him, and that's his word was tackle. At which time 12 he discharged one additional round of ammunition. 13 Officer Wilson stated he then used 14 his radio and notified his dispatcher, and I believe 15 his quote was, "send me every car you've got and the 16 supervisor." 17 Did he indicate that he knew where that 18 last round landed? 19 A He said he believed it hit him in his 20 head. 21 Have you ever heard any of the radio 22 transmissions? 23 A Afterwards, yes, I have. 24 All right. It was part of your 25 investigation to listen? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 113 A I listened to bits and pieces, but as far as a continual listening to every piece of radio LUMP traffic, no, that was not my responsibility. What part of the radio traffic were you interested in listening to? A I believe it was just random bits to see what all that we had. So from at the very beginning would be him being dispatched to the sick case 9 through the end of when St. Louis County basically 10 departed the scene. 11 There was no specific pieces of radio 12 traffic that I was either interested in or 13 documented. 14 But you listened to the radio traffic from 15 the sick case to when St. Louis County came on the 16 scene? 17 A Not completely through. 18 Okay. 19 A I don't know if I said that right, but 20 just to see where it started and where it ended. 21 I see. 22 A I didn't listen to anything in between. 23 Okay. Did he ever, I think you said that 24 when he saw his right hand go to his waist, did he 25 say he thought he had a weapon? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 114 1 A I'm sorry? 2 Did he say that he thought that Michael 3 Brown had a weapon? 4 A He didn't know. 5 He didn't know? 6 A He did not know. 7 That was his concern? 8 A Yes. 9 When he put his hand to his waist? 10 A Yes. ll He did say that? 12 A He said due to the assault and not knowing 13 that he was concerned. 14 Okay. Does he ever mention anything about 15 some Cigarillos? 16 A Are you speaking of Officer Darren Wilson? 17 Yes. 18 A The only thing he mentions about 19 Cigarillos was during his recollection of the 20 initial call, comments for the stealing in progress 21 at 9101 West Florissant. It was never addressed 22 after that or brought up. 23 MS. WHIRLEY: Questions? 24 . When you 25 mentioned the struggle inside the vehicle with the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 115 i 1 officer and Michael Brown, did Michael Brown have a 2 anything in his hands, did he mention he had 3 anything in his hands at the time? 4 A He says when, the way he describes it is 5 when he reaches back and says, "here, take this." 6 That he hands something off to the other individual, 7 but he doesn't know what it was. So he just says, 8 he left it at something. 9 Did you 10 state that after the first shot went off in the car 11 when he was trying to gain control of his weapon, 12 that it misfired two more times? 13 A The total number that he can approximate 14 is three. The first time he pulled the trigger he 15 said that it misfired. The second time he pulled 16 the trigger it fired and then he said he tried two 17 additional times and they misfired. l8 Okay, thank you. 19 The first 20 misfire he said was because Michael's hand was on 21 the gun, what about the second and third one, was 22 there still that contact going on? 23 A He says that that's what he believed. 24 Now, I'm not a firearms expert nor was I there, but 25 he says that he believes that that's what caused the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 116 i 1 misfire. i 2 Throughout this he never says that 3 Michael, the subject, takes his hand off the weapon 4 until he continues the assault, the second assault 5 in the vehicle. 6 Just to follow?up, did you 7 have a sense for how long that altercation lasted? 8 A He approximated a minute from start to 9 finish. 10 . When we 11 talk about misfire, can you kind of walk us through 12 that process what it looks like? 13 A Sure. So there's many reasons. And like 14 I said, I'm not a firearms expert, howevercarry a firearm and know some things about 16 it is that a weapon can misfire for many different 17 reasons. 18 One of them being if there's anything 19 that is impeding the hammer of the firearm from 20 coming forward and striking the firing pin, that 21 will cause the weapon to misfire. So if you put 22 anything in there, a piece of rope, or as the case 23 may be, if a hand is pushed down on that hammer, it 24 won't let that hammer cycle and won't allow the 25 weapon to fire. Does that clarify it? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 117 1 Yeah, 2 So the bullet would remain in the gun, it 3 would not have impacted, it potentially would be 4 able to be shot again, there would no casing 5 discharged? 6 A Correct. So if the weapon misfires in 7 that form, the casing will not be discharged, the 8 round that is currently in the chamber will still be 9 a live round, it will still fire if the gun cycles 10 properly the next time. ll Okay, thank you. 12 MS. ALIZADEH: I have a follow?up question 13 about that. And you're familiar with the Sig Sauer l4 weapon that this officer was carrying? 15 A I am. 16 (By Ms. Alizadeh) And this is a weapon 17 that when it fires properly, the empty cartridge is 18 ejected from the gun ejection port, right? 19 A Yes. 20 And that's on top of the weapon, at least 21 in the area where Officer Wilson said Michael Brown 22 had his hands, correct? 23 A That is correct. 24 Can you explain to the jurors what 25 stovepiping means? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 118 A Stovepiping is a term used in firearms where the round, a live round will be, it could be a LUMP spent round also, casing is basically partially ejected and is situated in a manner that looks like the round is sitting vertical on the gun. If I'm explaining this right, to where it would look like a stovepipe coming out of an oven. And that basically means that the casing was not fully extracted from 9 the chamber and the gun did not cycle properly. 10 And is it possible, again, we will have a ll firearms expert testifying about this, has that ever 12 happened to you? 13 A At the range, yes. I mean, it is a 14 malfunction that is not common, but it does occur. 15 And so if there would be something 16 blocking that cartridge from flying out of that 17 ejection port, it could be stuck inside partially in 18 and out of the weapon, correct? 19 A Yes. 20 And if that were to occur, would you be 21 able to discharge another round with that 22 projectile, that cartridge still partially in that 23 ejection port? 24 A No. And also when that casing is 25 stovepiped, it allowed, the gun is out of battery, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 119 i 1 which means it won't cycle again. So you would have i 2 to clear the malfunction, and there's a drill that 3 they train us on of how you would have to clear the 4 stovepipe, the round. 5 I'm . This 6 is going back to the time that you arrived at the 7 Ferguson Police Department to speak with Officer 8 Wilson, Darren Wilson. And at the time you said he 9 showed you where his gun, where he says that his gun 10 was contained in his package. 11 A Uh?huh. l2 Can you describe that 13 package for us? 14 A I can. It is a manila envelope, which is, 15 I'd probably say 9 by 13 size, and what it looked 16 like is I didn't see if it was sealed because the 17 way it was positioned on the table is that the flap, 18 I guess for it, was positioned down, if that makes 19 sense. 20 Yeah, that is what I 21 wanted to know. 22 A Sure. 23 I need clarification if it 24 was sealed or not. And from the time of the 25 incident until the time that Officer Darren Wilson Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 120 1 was transported to Christian Northwest to document 2 his injuries or whatever, can you give me some idea 3 about how much time had elapsed from that point to 4 the point that he arrived at the hospital? 5 A Well, the only thing I could speak of is 6 the time that we were notified at this point. I 7 don't exactly know what time the incident occurred 8 and what time he departed the scene, it wasn't part 9 of my responsibility or my interview at the time. 10 I know that we were notified at 11 12:43. I arrived at 1:30 on scene and I first 12 contacted Officer Darren Wilson at 2:00 p.m. 13 The conversation at Ferguson Police 14 Department lasted minutes, not long at all and then 15 he was transported to Christian Northwest Hospital. 16 MS. WHIRLEY: How long would you say, how 17 much time did you spend with him at Christian 18 Hospital. 19 A I probably say 30 minutes. Obviously it 20 took some time to get photos taken and then any time 21 that either a registration nurse, a physician's 22 assistant or nurse would enter the room, the 23 interview would basically just stop for privacy 24 reasons. That would be common practice even if it 25 was a normal investigation. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 121 1 So from 2 the time that you finally left him at the hospital 3 or whatever. 4 A Uh?huh. 5 Do you know about what 6 time that was? 7 A I probably say I left probably between 8 2:45 and 3:00. From that point I returned back to 9 the Ferguson Police Department. 10 Yes, ma'am. ll During 12 the scene, the time that the officer was still 13 positioning his car, struggling with Mr. Brown, did 14 he ever indicate that he was trying to call for 15 help? 16 A I'm sorry? 17 Did he ever say that he 18 was trying to call for help or backup? 19 A He did not. He said that initially even 20 before, as you put it the altercation took place, he 21 says that he requested, advised the dispatcher he 22 was conducting a pedestrian check and then he 23 requested an assist car at that point before the 24 confrontation at the vehicle ever took place. 25 So when an officer in his Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 122 1 position will call for help, does he have a 2 microphone here or radio dispatch on his waist? 3 A In a later interview with Officer Wilson, 4 we found that he keeps the radio on his right side. 5 MS. ALIZADEH: You are pointing to your 6 left side? 7 A I'm sorry, it is on his left side, I 8 apologize. I'm sorry, on his, thank you, his left 9 side. And then there would be a radio inside of the 10 vehicle also. ll So still . He 12 gets out of the car and he tells him to halt, but he 13 says the victim kept running. So at that time he 14 still had not called for backup? 15 A He says that as he's exiting the vehicle 16 he announces shot fires and requested assistance at 17 that point. That would be once he is getting out of 18 the car. 19 He's 20 A I'm sorry? 21 Did he fire once call and then fire? 23 A No, he, okay he, I'm trying to explain it 24 to where. So essential what happens is after, he 25 tells us that after the first shot that went off Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 123 1 while he was in the vehicle, the subject comes back 2 in and assaults him and then takes off running east 3 on Canfield away from the car. 4 Uh?huh. 5 A Officer Wilson then tells us that he opens 6 his door and as he is exiting the vehicle, he gets 7 on his radio and announces, or notifies his 8 dispatcher of shots fired and requests an assist 9 car. 10 So at that point that would be his 11 second, as he puts it, second radio transmission 12 regarding this incident announcing where he 13 announced shots fired and requested assistance at 14 that point. 15 So what did he say would 16 be his reason to keep firing after he got out of the 17 car and calling for help? 18 A Okay, uh 19 If the suspect is running, 20 then what would be your initial reason to keep 21 shooting? 22 A As Darren Wilson describes it, the subject 23 turned around at that point. He doesn't tell us 24 that he fired any rounds from the time that the time that the subject turns Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 124 1 around. He just announces on the radio that shots 2 were fired. 3 And from being a police officer as 4 long as have, that's the same thing as an officer 5 needs aid, requesting immediate assistance, if you 6 hear, you are a neighboring police officer and you 7 hear any police officer and yell shots fired, that 8 means that obviously something bad has happened. 9 . I guess 10 at the point where Michael Brown turned around, did ll Officer Darren Wilson, did he indicate he had any 12 injuries? 13 A He doesn't, he doesn't say. Are you 14 talking about Officer Wilson or the subject? 15 The subject. 16 A He doesn't say nor do I ask. He just says 17 he turns around and then the hand goes to the right 18 side of his waistband. He never says that he saw 19 any injuries on the subject nor did, like I said, 20 nor did I ask. 21 After the shot 22 was fired in the car, you said he saw blood on his 23 hand. Was Officer Wilson referring to his own hand 24 or Michael Brown's hand? 25 A He was referring to his own hands. So Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 125 i 1 that's when he says, he tells me that he didn't know i 2 if he was injured, as far as he being Officer 3 Wilson, or the subject was injured. He didn't know, 4 he just saw the blood. 5 You said you've 6 investigated several officer shootings, is it 7 typical that prior to your arrival, that the officer 8 already has a lawyer there? 9 A It can happen. I mean, it does happen on 10 certain occasions and it would not impede us or 11 change anything with the way we proceed. I mean, we 12 would ask every police officer, just like we ask 13 every victim or every witness or every suspect, if 14 they would be interested in having a conversation or 15 if they would be okay with an interview. 16 And we just assume that the attorney 17 would and with what happened is, his attorney sat 18 there and didn't say a word. 19 And this case there isn't 20 say, for instance, Ferguson Police Department, there 21 isn't a lawyer staffed in the building readily 22 available, it would have been just like anyone else, 23 it would have been called in on Saturday, I imagine? 24 A I'm sorry to interrupt you. 25 No, no Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 126 i A I believe the attorney, is i 2 an attorney for the FOP, which is the Federal. 3 MS. ALIZADEH: Fraternal? 4 A Fraternal Order of Police's attorney, I'm 5 sorry. Basically he is, I don't want to say 6 on?call, it is not the right word, but if a critical 7 incident happens, the police officer, if a member, 8 can call him any time. 9 Thank you. 10 ll Stovepiping. 12 A Yes. 13 You said the casing is 14 not fully discharged from the weapon? 15 A Uh-huh. l6 It kind of looks like a 17 stove, like a stovepipe on top of the gun? 18 A Uh-huh. l9 It cannot be discharged 20 again until that's taken apart? 2l A The gun doesn't have to be taken apart. 22 Until the casing, 23 whatever, is taken off? 24 A Right, it would have to be, the 25 malfunction drill is, you have to remove the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 127 1 magazine, lock the slide to the rear, which would 2 remove the stovepipe round and the round that was 3 somewhat forced into the chamber, or the barrel of 4 the gun. You would have to reinsert the magazine 5 and then put the slide forward and that would 6 chamber another round. 7 So it's a three or four step process 8 too, if a weapon does stovepipe, to clear that 9 malfunction. 10 If a gun was, if a weapon ll was, a shot was fired inside the car that there 12 would be a spent casing inside the car or could it 13 exit the window? 14 A It could definitely eject through the 15 window. 16 The window that's in 17 front of you? 18 A Yes, it could have, in just my experience, 19 casings could end up in very odd places. It will 20 eject, and it could bounce off something, you know, 21 there is plenty of obstructions inside of a car, any 22 typical car a steering wheel, the dashboard, it 23 could end up anywhere. 24 Or moving body? 25 A A_moving body, yeah. It could have been, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 128 1 seen it before where it is caught in clothes and it 2 would fall out as a person is running away and it is 3 further away from the scene than what you would 4 expect. There's no predetermined place for a casing 5 to land when it is ejected. 6 I'm just 7 trying to get idea of the logistics of the utility 8 belt. 9 A Okay. 10 Okay. Now, you told us 11 the radio is kind of like on the left hip? 12 A Uh?huh. 13 Is that basically where 14 everybody wears it? 15 A Uh-huh. 16 Give me some idea where 17 the mace is, where the baton is in relationship to 18 the gun? 19 A Okay. On Darren Wilson's belt 20 specifically? 21 Uh?huh. 22 A It was, the mace on the left side, his 23 radio was on that side also. 24 Uh?huh. 25 A There is a, it is more like a utility belt Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 129 i 1 loop where you would either hang a flashlight spare set of handcuffs on it. And then on 3 the back side, I believe there was a set of 4 handcuffs and his duty holster on his duty belt was 5 on his right hip. On the right side, but in the 6 front are two additional, it is called a magazine 7 pouch and it carries two reserve magazines for your 8 pistol. 9 Anywhere for the mace or 10 whatever? 11 A The mace is right here. 12 The mace is on the left? 13 A It is on the left. 14 Okay. 15 A That's the situation, I guess, of his duty 16 belt. 17 Okay, thank you. 18 . Getting back 19 to the positioning of the shooting. When Michael 20 Brown turned around, Officer Darren Wilson said he 21 was approximately 30 foot between them? 22 A (Nods head.) 23 As Michael Brown charged 24 towards him, he backed up to keep the distance. 25 Does he indicate that Michael Brown was closing Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 130 1 distance on him? 2 A He says that, and I don't want to make an 3 assumption, I'm just telling you what he says. The 4 distance started at 30 feet and then it was reduced 5 down to 15 feet. 6 MS. WHIRLEY: If there are no other 7 questions, you did actually do a recorded interview 8 with Michael Brown; is that correct? (sic) 9 A I did. 10 (By Ms. Whirley) And who was present 11 during that interview? 12 A It was myself, Detective 13 who was the case detective, police officer Darren 14 Wilson and his attorney 15 Any idea how long that interview was? 16 A I'd say roughly 30 minutes. 17 30 minutes, okay. We're not going to ask 18 you to sit through the interview, I was just setting 19 it up because you are the person that actually did 20 that interview. 2l Any other questions? 22 MS. ALIZADEH: I do want to ask about that 23 interview as well. So that is recorded and we're 24 going to play that later. 25 The interview actually was primarily Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 131 1 conducted by wouldn't that be fair to 2 say? 3 A Yes. 4 MS. ALIZADEH: You were present and also 5 asked questions, but is the primary 6 speaker or the primary questioner I would say, 7 correct? 8 A Yes. 9 MS. ALIZADEH: And that was video or audio 10 recorded? 11 A Audio recorded. 12 MS. ALIZADEH: Now, you will sometimes 13 video record homicide suspects; is that correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 MS. ALIZADEH: And you an interview room, 16 several interview rooms over at your headquarters 17 that are equipped with video cameras and that are 18 for that purpose, interviewing suspects, correct? 19 A Yes. 20 MS. ALIZADEH: Why didn't you video record 21 his, and I don't know if it was your decision or 22 another officer's decision, do you know why interview room and interviewed like 24 you would a suspect in a homicide? 25 A Our interview rooms are small, they're Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 132 1 kind of that way for a reason. They are 4 feet by 2 6 feet. And with just one interviewer and a person 3 being interviewed, is very tight. 4 So with two detectives, a person 5 being interviewed and their attorney, that room, 6 those rooms are just not conducive for that type, 7 the amount of people. 8 So the room that we chose to use is a 9 small conference room with a table and about six 10 chairs that are around it. So it was more ll accommodating, we would use that option if we needed 12 it on any interview. 13 MS. ALIZADEH: And so there was an audio 14 recording made of that interview, correct? 15 A That was done at the St. Louis County 16 Police Headquarters within the office of the 17 Division of Criminal Investigation, which is where 18 our offices are. 19 MS. ALIZADEH: Also just to clarify, you 20 are now aware that the FBI is conducting an 21 independent investigation into civil rights 22 violations, correct? 23 A Yes. 24 MS. ALIZADEH: I'm not going to get into 25 the date that that began or anything like that, but Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 133 1 when you did your interview at the department 2 headquarters in the conference room, the one we are 3 going to listen to, was FBI conducting joint 4 interviews at that time? 5 A At that time, no. 6 MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. Now, after that 7 date, at some point during this 8 investigation, was there a decision made between 9 your superiors and people with, you know, the feds 10 that if at all possible, it would be better that you ll all conduct joint interviews? 12 A Yes. 13 MS. ALIZADEH: But the feds were not 14 involved in the interview that Darren Wilson gave at 15 your headquarters in the conference room? 16 A Correct. 17 MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. l8 . I just 19 want to clarify, that interview, the recorded 20 interview was with Officer Darren Wilson? 2l A Yes, Officer Darren Wilson and Detective 22 23 I may have misheard. 24 A No, that's okay. 25 MS. ALIZADEH: We haven't heard it yet, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 134 1 just so you know. 2 MS. WHIRLEY: Put on the 3 record, clarify what you said. 4 I think Sheila may have 5 said did you do an interview with Michael Brown. 6 A Oh, I'm sorry. 7 MS. WHIRLEY: If I said that, that was, of 8 course, incorrect. 9 A Yes. 10 MS. WHIRLEY: You did an interview with 11 Darren Wilson? 12 A I'm sorry. 13 MS. WHIRLEY: So thank you, 14 MS. ALIZADEH: And that, of course, the 15 interview with Darren Wilson, conducted by county 16 police officers we will play for you later today. 17 Any other questions of this officer before 18 he is to leave? 19 One last 20 question. After your initial interview, the cursory 21 interview, did you return back to the scene and 22 report or how does that work? 23 A What occurred is I returned, I left 24 Christian Northwest Hospital and returned to the 25 Ferguson Police Department initially. While I was Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 135 i 1 there, I waited maybe 10, 15 minutes for Officer 5 2 Wilson to return and Lieutenant Colonel to 3 return. 4 It was at that point when they did 5 return, we seized, when I say we, I'm referring to 6 Detective seized the uniform worn by 7 Darren Wilson during the incident. And that's at 8 which time his weapon was seized and it was in that 9 evidence envelope or that manila envelope that we 10 had talked about earlier. So that's when the weapon 11 and uniform were seized. 12 Following that, I did return to the 13 scene there on Canfield Green Apartment Complex. 14 The reason for that is, goes hand in hand with our 15 cursory interview. The way I explained it earlier 16 is that with the information that I obtained through 17 the cursory interview, I provide that to Detective 18 so that it will allow the members of the 19 police department at the scene to make sure we have 20 encompassed everything that might be involved. 21 So they have a statement that will 22 either, you know, if they need to look over here for 23 evidence or over there, they know based on the 24 cursory statement. We would do that with any 25 witness or anybody that could give us any Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 136 i 1 information, we'll use that to, influence is the i 2 wrong word, make us look in the right spot, if you 3 understand what I'm saying, I'm sorry. 4 5 A Yes. 6 Do you feel that the way 7 the weapon was handled before it got to your St. 8 Louis County investigator, compromised the 9 investigation in any way? 10 A No, it is just different than what St. 11 Louis County would do. However, chain of custody 12 was maintained and that's really the only thing that 13 would be important to me as an investigator that it 14 went from Officer Darren Wilson, to Detective 15 to Detective those are 16 the chains that, obviously, I would be concerned 17 about. It appeared that it was maintained, so. 18 MS. ALIZADEH: And also looking at my 19 notes I neglected to ask, you've mentioned that you 20 investigated a number of police officer involved 21 shootings? 22 A Correct. 23 MS. ALIZADEH: And have you interviewed 24 the police officers involved in those shootings? 25 A On some of them. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 137 1 MS. ALIZADEH: And in your experience, is 2 it unusual for the officer to not be able to 3 accurately recall how many or the sequence of shots 4 that were fired during the critical incident? 5 A Not at all, it is actually common. 6 MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. Nothing further. 7 A Thank you very much. 8 (End of the testimony of Officer 9 1O (Recess) ll MS. ALIZADEH: This is the l6th Of 12 September, the time is approximately 1:16. This is 13 Kathi Alizadeh with the prosecutor's office. 14 Present are all 12 jury grand jurors, as well as the 15 court reporter, Sheila Whirley has stepped out. 16 To begin the afternoon session what I 17 would first like to do is to play an audio file that 18 is contained on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 17. 19 Remember, this is one of those I renumbered. I 20 think it used to be 9 or 10, but anyway, it is now 21 Grand Jury Number 17. I'm going to play a recording 22 of an interview of Darren Wilson and the interview I 23 have transcripts that I'm going to pass out. 24 Again, if you will to take one and put 25 your juror number in the corner. Before I actually Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 138 1 start this, this interview is the interview that 2 talked about that was recorded in a 3 conference room at the police headquarters. 4 And so as you can see from the transcript, 5 the main speakers are Detective and in the 6 transcript that is DET. and then when Darren 7 responds it is D. Wilson. 8 9 They both have the distinctive voices 10 and hopefully it won't be to confusing for you to ll tell who is speaking. 12 Also during the interview you will hear 13 that they give Darren Wilson a map to write on and 14 then also a photo lineup that they ask him if he can 15 identify somebody. 16 So that happens later in the interview. 17 I'm going to let you guys look at those and I can 18 put them up on the screen if you like, but those are 19 what is being referenced when they are talking and 20 those are copies. 22 Miss Kathi, is this Ferguson or St. Louis County 23 interviewing him? is with 24 MS . ALIZADEH: Detective 25 the County Police Department, and I think he Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 139 i 1 announces that in the beginning paragraph who is a 2 with, who is present and who they're with. 3 And also, I'm going to tell you because we 4 have another witness that's here that we need to 5 meet with briefly, and Sheila and I both need to do 6 that, I'm going to start this and I'm going to walk 7 out. I would ask that you not deliberate or 8 anything while I'm gone because is still here 9 and he's going to just be present while this is 10 being played and then if we're not back in 30 11 minutes, which I can't imagine it is going to take 12 30 minutes, when we come back we'll stop it. If it 13 stops before, then we'll just, said he would 14 then just leave the room so he is not sitting here 15 alone with you all. 16 If by chance we're not 17 back when this ends, you know it will start over 18 from the beginning automatically, so you can just 19 click the pause or that square to stop it. 20 (This is the audio recording being played 21 at this time.) 22 MS. ALIZADEH: Is there any part of this 23 that you all want to hear again or hear it again in 24 its totality? And again, this is available for you 25 to listen and the transcripts are for you to keep in Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 140 1 your materials, all right. 2 So you ready for the next witness? 3 Can I take a quick 4 bathroom break? 5 6 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 7 testify the truth, the whole truth, and 8 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 9 deposes and says in reply to oral 10 interrogatories, propounded as follows, to?wit: ll EXAMINATION 12 BY MS. ALIZADEH: 13 Could you state your name and spell it for 14 the court reporter? 15 A 16 17 And just in case I slip, you go by 18 is that right? 19 A I do, yes. 20 I'll try to remember to call you 21 Miss 22 A Yes. 23 All right. What do you do, Miss 24 A I'm an FBI agent. 25 How long have you been with the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 141 1 A I've been with the FBI about three and a 2 half years. 3 And prior to your employment with the FBI, 4 were you otherwise employed in law enforcement? 5 A I was a civilian crime scene examiner for 6 Baltimore County Police Department. 7 Okay. So you were a civilian crime scene 8 examiner? 9 A Investigator. 10 So you weren't a commissioned police ll officer? 12 A I was not. 13 So prior to becoming an FBI agent, you 14 were never a commissioned police officer? 15 A No, I was not. 16 So all of your law enforcement career has 17 been with the FBI, other than the civilian crime 18 scene investigator? 19 A Yes, ma'am. 20 So where are you officed? 21 A St. Louis, Missouri. 22 Is your office in the FBI headquarters 23 downtown in St. Louis City? 24 A Yes, ma'am. 25 And back in early August of this year, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 142 1 were you asked to assist with an investigation 2 involving the shooting death of Michael Brown? 3 A I was. 4 And you're aware that the Department of 5 Justice is conducting an investigation into civil 6 rights violations that might have occurred involving 7 the shooting death of Michael Brown? 8 A Yes, ma'am. 9 Now, the FBI, that's a federal agency, 10 right? 11 A Yes. 12 You're a federal agent? 13 A Yes. 14 I'm not going to get into a law school 15 class about this, but typically you aren't typically 16 investigating murders and rapes and things that 17 maybe state level law enforcement officers 18 investigate, would that be fair to say? 19 A Yes. 20 And so what your role is or what you are 21 limited to is investigating violations of federal 22 laws, correct? 23 A Yes, ma'am. 24 And so is that primarily what your role is 25 in this case is to investigate violations of any Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 143 1 federal laws? 2 A Yes, ma'am. 3 So when were you first brought in on the 4 investigation of the shooting death of Michael 5 Brown? 6 A August 11th, 2014. 7 And have you continued to be involved in 8 this investigation since August 11th? 9 A Yes. 10 And have you, in the course of your 11 investigation, did you interview Darren Wilson? 12 A Yes. 13 Have you conducted numerous other 14 interviews of other witnesses? 15 A Yes. 16 Both lay people or civilians and law 17 enforcement? 18 A Yes. 19 And, in fact, is your investigation still 20 going onwhat I'm going to ask you about 23 today is about your interview with Darren Wilson, 24 but we know you had other things to do with this 25 case. If we need to have you testify about other Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 144 1 aspects of your investigation, would you return to 2 the grand jury to give further testimony? 3 A I will. 4 All right. So just for today, I'm not 5 saying I'm limiting you in asking your questions, 6 but just for today the purpose I'm going to be 7 asking you questions is about your interview with 8 Darren Wilson, okay? 9 A Yes. 10 Now, on what day did you interview Darren 11 Wilson? 12 A August 28th, 2014. 13 Now, during the time of your involvement 14 with this investigation, was there a time when the 15 FBI agents involved and the attorneys are either 16 with the U.S. Attorney's office or Department of 17 Justice kind of agreed to work together with the 18 county investigators in conducting interviews 19 together? 20 A Yes. 21 Were you aware prior to your interview of 22 Darren Wilson, were you aware that he had already 23 been interviewed by county detectives about the 24 shooting death of Michael Brown? 25 A Yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 145 1 And did you have a copy of that interview? 2 A Yes. 3 And had you listened to it prior to your 4 interview of Darren Wilson? 5 A Yes. 6 So now given that he's already given an 7 interview with the county detectives, why is it that 8 you decided to interview him again on the 28th? 9 A As we do separate investigations, my 10 investigation is a civil rights investigation. Part ll of that and what I do in investigating civil rights 12 is violations under the color of law, which that's 13 why we're taking a look at this shooting, is to see 14 if Officer Wilson was in violation of his sworn 15 duties. 16 And because of that, he is a subject 17 of an investigation and very important and we are, 18 it is separate, excuse me, from a homicide l9 investigation, what the county is conducting, so we 20 felt it necessary to conduct a separate interview. 2l And at the time that Michael Brown, I'm 22 sorry, Darren Wilson was interviewed by the county 23 detectives, was that before you all started 24 conducting joint interviews? 25 A Yes, ma'am. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 146 i 1 And the joint interviews, is it time i 2 saving for detectives as well as less inconvenience 3 for witnesses and so forth? 4 A That main reason has to do with the fact 5 you want to limit statements given to avoid 6 inconsistency, because it is human nature. 7 And in any case, you wanted to ask 8 additional questions at some point involving your 9 investigation of Wilson? 10 A Yes. 11 I mean, Officer Wilson, Darren Wilson? 12 A Yes. 13 All right. And so did you or someone else 14 with the FBI contact Darren Wilson and/or his 15 attorney about having him come in to give a 16 statement? 17 A Yes. 18 Did they agree to do that? 19 A They did. 20 They appeared at your headquarters? 21 A Yes. 22 So who came to the interview, who was 23 present? 24 A Officer Darren Wilson, as well as his 25 attorney, and another attorney, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 147 1 I believe. 2 3 A as well as assistant United States 4 attorney, Department of Justice trial 5 attorney and also present was another 6 special agent, 7 And so where did this interview take place 8 in your FBI headquarters? 9 A It took place, we have interview rooms in 10 the front, that's where it took place. 11 So was this a conference room looking at 12 area or, I mean, is everybody sitting around the 13 table? 14 A It is. 15 Okay. And did you record these, this 16 interview? 17 A We did not. 18 Why is it that you didn't record this 19 interview? 20 A It is not generally the FBI's policy to 21 record. It was made, the decision was made since he 22 already had a recorded statement as well, to not 23 record an additional statement. 24 During the interview, did you take notes 25 during the interview? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 148 1 A I did. 2 Did you use those notes, do you use those 3 notes generally then to write a police report or 4 what you guys call 3023? 5 A Correct. 6 And 302 is just a number that is for that 7 type of a report that you write, for example, when 8 you are summarizing an interview, would that be fair 9 to say? 10 A Yes. ll And so, again, in this scenario you are 12 questioning him because he is the subject of a 13 federal investigation into civil rights violations, 14 correct? 15 A Yes. 16 So when he arrived, was there any 17 discussion between you and his attorney or him about 18 there being any limitation on the questions that you 19 were going to ask him? 20 A No, there was no limitation. 2l Did you read him Miranda warnings? 22 A No, we did not. 23 And why notcustody. 25 So he came there voluntarily, he wasn't Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 149 i 1 arrested. Were you planning on placing him under 2 2 arrest after you were questioning him? 3 A No. 4 And his attorney was present during the 5 entire interview? 6 A Yes. 7 And was there ever a time when you had 8 breaks during the interview where he was left alone 9 in the room with his attorney? 10 A They had the option. I can't recall if 11 there were breaks or not. 12 About how long did your interview last? 13 A Approximately an hour. 14 And were there questions asked by you 15 during the interview? 16 A Yes. 17 Did the Department of Justice trial 18 attorney, did she ask questions as 19 well? 20 A She did. 21 Did U.S. attorney or assistant U.S. 22 attorney I think it is 23 correct? 24 A Yes, ma'am. 25 Did he ask questions as well? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 150 A He did. 2 Did ask questions as well? 3 A She did. 4 And how would describe Darren Wilson's 5 demeanor during the time you interviewed him? 6 A Cooperative. 7 Did he appear nervousdid you, was this the first time 10 you had ever met Darren Wilson? ll A Yes, it was. 12 And you're aware that he is on 13 administrative leave; is that correct, or did you 14 know that? 15 A I didn't know it was administrative leave, 16 I just know he had not returned to work. 17 He didn't come in a policeman's uniform to 18 the interviewcan you just and summarize for the 2l jurors, what you talked about or what you asked him 22 during the interview? 23 A We, we went over his career as a police 24 officer, just a brief rundown that he had been a 25 police officer in Jennings Missouri Police Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 151 1 Department for two years prior and had worked for 2 Ferguson since October 2011, Ferguson Police 3 Department. 4 And then we went into August 9th, 5 2014, where he was working a shift from 6:00 a.m. to 6 6:00 p.m. Around noon, just before noon he received 7 a call, a sick call he referred to it as. An infant 8 who had a fever. While he was at that call he heard 9 over the radio a call for a stealing in progress 10 where, is it okay if I refer to my notes? ll Sure. 12 A Sorry, I don't mean to look down. He 13 heard it was at a market, he didn't hear which one 14 and he heard a description over the radio saying the 15 subjects were walking towards the QuikTrip, stole 16 Cigarillos and one subject was wearing a black 17 shirt. 18 Wilson cleared that sick call because 19 the mother and the infant were taken to the 20 hospital. He cleared the call and he was going 21 eastbound on Canfield. The sick call was in an 22 apartment complex, I believe it is called 23 Northwinds, and to get back to West Florissant, I'm 24 sorry, west on Canfield. 25 And as he's driving, he sees two Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 152 1 individuals in the middle of the road walking single 2 file and as he pulls up, he sees who he identifies 3 later at a later date as of the date of the 4 interview as Dorian Johnson and Michael Brown. He 5 didn't know them before. 6 When he was talking with you, he, at that 7 point knew that the deceased was Michael Brown and 8 that the other gentleman is Dorian Johnson, correct? 9 A Yes, ma'am. 10 But during your interview, did he refer to ll them by name, those names then? 12 A He did. 13 But did you clarify with him that this 14 was, were these individuals he had ever heard of or 15 had any contact with previously? 16 A We did clarify and no, he did not. He did 17 not know who they were prior to this interaction. 18 Okay. So you say he sees these two 19 subjects who he now knows as Michael Brown and 20 Dorian Johnson, what happened next? 21 A Dorian was first, so he pulled up next to 22 him and asked him why don't you guys walk on the 23 sidewalk. He made the statement, it wasn't in a 24 confrontational way because he was more concerned 25 about going back to the station to have lunch, it Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 153 was about that time. Dorian's response was, we're just LUMP about to our destination, Dorian was not confrontational either. And Officer Wilson's response was okay, but what's wrong with the sidewalk. And Dorian kept, he continued to walk and Officer Wilson said he did not pay attention to Michael Brown and 9 he was somewhat blocked. He has a big mirror, he 10 was driving a Tahoe, so the mirror is quite large ll and Michael was blocked, he was just in that spot. 12 Because he was interacting with 13 Dorian Johnson, didn't notice Michael walking or any 14 demeanor and so when he says okay, but what's wrong 15 with the sidewalk, Michael says, "fuck what you have 16 to say." 17 I'm sorry, let me refer to my notes. 18 Officer Wilson's attention was then drawn to Michael 19 Brown and he noticed that Michael Brown's hands were 20 full of Cigarillos. He looks in his rear View 21 mirror and also saw that Dorian was wearing a black 22 T?shirt. 23 Thinking back on the call, Michael 24 Brown was wearing a gray T?shirt and the call was 25 they stole Cigarillos and one was wearing a black Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 154 shirt. So kind of putting two and two together or thinking that these might be the two guys, he puts LUMP the car into reverse. Now, when you say putting two and two together, is that what he was telling you that he put two and two together or is that your interpretation of it? A He said he recalled the description that 9 came out over the radio. I think I'm using that, I 10 don't know what you would call that, but yes, he ll said that. 12 As much as possible because, obviously, 13 you know, I don't want you to add to the statement 14 or even interpret something that you believe he 15 meant or said if he said it a certain way. So as 16 best you can, stick with what he told you. So he 17 said he recalled that earlier call about the 18 stealing Cigarillos? 19 A Yes, ma'am. 20 And then what did he say happened? 2l A He said he put the car, I'm sorry, he 22 called over the radio said I'm on Canfield with two, 23 send me another car, that's quoted. 24 He then put his vehicle into reverse 25 and angled the rear of the vehicle towards the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 155 i 1 middle of the street as to block the two of them a 2 from getting away, or walking any further. 3 He said, Officer Wilson said his plan 4 was to stall them until another officer got there. 5 He was not going to try to arrest or even question 6 either one of them because he was out numbered and 7 incredibly outsized by Michael Brown. In fact, he 8 quoted as saying, he would overpower me. 9 So before Wilson gets out of his car, 10 he tells Brown, come over here a minute. Wilson ll attempted to open the door and Brown, Michael Brown, 12 shoved the car door back at him. 13 And Michael Brown said to him, "what 14 the fuck are you going to do about it." 15 Wilson, Police Officer Wilson 16 unsuccessfully tried to open the door again, Michael 17 Brown ducked his head in because he was taller than 18 the vehicle, ducked his head in down, came in 19 through the driver's side window swinging his arms, 20 he described him swinging his arms wildly at Wilson. 21 He said Brown's right hand connected 22 with the left side of his face. Wilson tried to get 23 Michael Brown off him and also block the blows that 24 were coming at him. 25 At some point Michael Brown turned Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 156 i around and handed the Cigarillos that were in his a hand to Dorian Johnson and Brown came right back LUMP around and hit Officer Wilson in the face with Michael Brown's left hand. Officer Wilson describes going through what he described as a force triangle in his mind, and that is the way he said they were trained. He knew he could use one level of force higher than 9 was being applied to him, excuse me, than the threat 10 level to his safety. ll And this force triangle is something that 12 he said he was trained about? 13 A Yes, ma'am. 14 And he described it to you? 15 A Yes, in just that way using one level 16 higher. 17 One level of force greater than the level 18 of force being used against you or applied against 19 him? 20 A Yes, ma'am. 2l Okay, go ahead. 22 A He said he couldn't reach his mace, he 23 also knew that in the academy he got sprayed with 24 mace and he doesn't handle it well. So even if it 25 doesn't hit him, he would not be, it would disable Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 157 him just as much as it would Michael Brown. He did not carry a taser, so that LUMP wasn't even and option. He had his asp baton on his belt and a mag flashlight in the passenger side. He said it would have given up too much of his body, Michael would of had to, could hit him more parts of his body if he tried to reach for either of those. He 9 also couldn't deploy the asp baton inside the 10 vehicle because it is collapsable. ll Wilson said he thought Brown could l2 beat him to death. He knew from his training 13 because for just that reason, he was allowed to use 14 deadly force. 15 He pulled out his gun and told Brown, 16 stop I'm going to shoot you. Brown's response was 17 and I quote, Officer Wilson quoting Brown, "you're 18 too much of a pussy to shoot." 19 Brown grabbed the gun and twisted it 20 down pointing at his left hip. And Officer Wilson 2l attempted to raise the gun with Michael's hand on it 22 and aimed, he described he aimed at the silhouette 23 of Michael Brown through the car because he could 24 not raise it. He couldn't pull the gun high enough 25 to go through the open window. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 158 1 So at this point is he describing that 2 both he and Michael Brown have their hands on the 3 gun? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 Does he say, does he say which hand he had 6 on the gun, his own hand? 7 A His right hand. 8 And did he say, was he holding it by the 9 grips, the handle of the gun? 10 A Yes. ll And then did he say what hand or hands 12 Michael Brown had on the gun? 13 A I don't believe I wrote which hand or 14 heard which hand. 15 Okay. So you don't recall if he said 16 which hand he had on the gun? 17 A I don't. 18 But does he describe that they both were 19 struggling over the gun at this point? 20 A Yes. 21 Does he describe where Michael Brown's 22 hand or hands are on the gun? 23 A He said, if he's holding the gun, he did 24 this motion where his hand was overtop holding, 25 Michael Brown's hand was over the gun, grabbing onto Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 159 i Wilson's hand. i 2 Okay. And you're not sure if Darren 3 Wilson told you which hand Michael Brown was using 4 at that point? 5 A I don't recall. 6 Okay. And so then what did he say, you 7 said he managed to level the barrel, which might be 8 the silhouette on the opposite side of the door, is 9 where Michael is standing, correct? 10 A Yes, ma'am. ll Okay. And then what happened? 12 A Sorry, I'm just referring to my notes. He 13 pointed at Brown's body through the door, pulled the 14 trigger and nothing happenedoff. 16 Officer Wilson attempted to pull the 17 trigger again and nothing happened. Officer Wilson 18 pulled the trigger a third time and the gun fired 19 through the door, driver door panel. The window 20 being down, glass flew everywhere. 2l I'm sorry, Brown's right hand was on 22 the gun when it fired. 23 Okay. 24 A I don't recall and I don't know that even 25 Officer Wilson knows when exactly, but he noticed Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 160 that there was blood on his right hand and he 2 assumed that he had gotten cut when the glass flew 3 everywhere. 4 After the gun goes off, Brown stepped 5 back from the car. He described somewhat in shock 6 and Brown puts his hands together at his right hip, 7 he demonstrated. And Officer Wilson thought maybe 8 he was hit there, which is why he put his hand 9 there. 10 He said Brown then became enraged ll where Officer Wilson describes his face looking like 12 a demon. 13 Officer Wilson was confused that 14 Brown wasn't then running away, knowing that 15 situation, assumed that that would be to get Brown 16 away from the door and to go because he had just 17 been shot, but Brown re?engaged. 18 And also at this point in time, 19 Officer Wilson did not know where Dorian Johnson 20 was. The last time he saw him was when he did the 2l Cigarillos handoff. At that's when the rest of that 22 time, the interaction, he never saw Dorian Johnson. 23 Does Officer Wilson describe that, so are 24 you saying that he says when he fired the weapon 25 into the door, he believed or thought that the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 161 bullet pierced the outer skin of the car and got Michael Brown, is that what you are talking about? LUMP A Yes. When you say that? A Based off of his action, also he didn't know where the bullet went, but he was aiming through the door when Michael Brown is engaged in the car, he pulled both of his hands down towards 9 his right hip and thought maybe that's where, if he 10 was hit, just based off that action not because he ll saw a wound and not because he saw blood. 12 Okay. And so then, what happened you said 13 that he then described his face as looking like a 14 demon and he is confused as to why he wouldn't have 15 run away at that point. What happened then, what 16 did he say then? 17 A Both of the Brown's hands came back 18 through the window. Officer Wilson just showed us 19 his left arm up defensively trying to block Brown 20 from punching him. 21 Wilson put his, the gun up and pulled 22 the trigger again, the gun didn't fire. He 23 described what blind racking the gun, it is pulling 24 the slide back without looking. I don't know what 25 he, I don't know if he used his hands to rack it, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 162 but he thought something had happened to the gun. He didn't know if the gun, he LUMP described it as stovepiping, which could be two bullets trying to go in and then neither will fire. He didn't know if he ejected a full cartridge, which would be the projectile along with the casing or just the spent casing was stuck in there, he didn't know, he didn't look. 9 10 he described as being the slide back? So he said he blind racked the gun, which ll A Yes. 12 Okay. 13 A Blind racking, he wasn't looking at his 14 gun, his attention was to Mr. Brown. 15 All right. You need two hands to do that, 16 would that be fair to say? 17 A He didn't demonstrate with hands, I'm 18 demonstrating because that's how I'm trained. He 19 could have also gone ahead, if I wasn't here, I 20 could use this table, he could have used the 2l steering wheel. 22 So you didn't ask him 23 A Did not. 24 He didn't demonstrate how he blind racked Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 163 1 A Correct. 2 But his words were blind racked? 3 A Yes, ma'am. 4 Okay. So what does he say happens after 5 he blind racks the gun? 6 A He fired the gun again, he pulled the 7 trigger again, the gun fired and he saw, and he 8 wasn't looking where he was shooting he said, he saw 9 a cloud of dust in the dirt across the street and 10 assumed Michael Brown had not been hit because ll that's where he assumed the projectile landed. 12 So did he tell you when before firing this 13 weapon now, the second shot, did he tell you was he 14 aiming in a particular place or was Michael Brown 15 still beside the vehicle? 16 A Yes, he was. He describes him, and again, 17 because I'm not sure what hand, he just shows him 18 blocking Michael Brown's blows with his left hand. 19 Okay. 20 A So after he fired that shot, that's when 21 Michael Brown again ran away. Upon which time 22 Officer Wilson called over the radio, shots fired, 23 send me more cars. 24 We asked because it is important 25 later whether or not he called over his, there is a Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 164 1 radio in the car and there's a radio that he has on 2 his person. So when you're inside a call car you 3 can hear and also transmit. He's not sure if he 4 said that with his car radio or with his handheld. 5 He remembers making a call and those 6 words, but doesn't know if it was the car radio or 7 his mobile walkie?talkie? 8 A Correct. 9 And then what happens? 10 A So Officer Wilson got out of the car to ll chase Mr. Brown because, and he describes because 12 Michael Brown was a fleeing felon. And he was just 13 doing his job, those were his words. 14 He said Brown had just assaulted and 15 attempted to kill him with his own duty, with 16 Wilson's duty weapon. 17 Officer Wilson did not want Michael 18 Brown to cause injury or death to anyone else. He 19 knew Brown would assault another responding officer 20 or witness as Brown had just assaulted him. 21 And Officer Wilson wanted to know, he 22 wanted to give chase, he wanted to know where Brown 23 was going. And in an attempt to apprehend Michael 24 Brown once other officers got there. 25 So let me stop you here. So this part you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 165 i 1 are testifying about he is basically explaining why a 2 he thought he was justified in pursuing the subject, 3 correct? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 Was that in response to questions that you 6 asked him directly or were you just letting him 7 narrate this and this is information he just 8 provided in a narrative form? 9 A That was in direct response. It is 10 possible, and the way my notes are written, I go 11 back and write and try to chronological order. He 12 could of at first give us the rundown, said what he 13 did and then we would go back and say why. 14 In my notes I tried to put it in 15 chronological order. So he went and gave chase and 16 I put in my notes in that same spot why, when we 17 asked him why. 18 Okay. And that was his explanation you 19 already testified about. And then what did he say 20 after he explained why he pursued the subject? 21 A He explained that he expected Michael 22 Brown to run for a while. So when he got out of the 23 vehicle he did still have his gun in his hand, but 24 it was down at his side because it is easier for him 25 to run instead of having it pointed at Michael Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 166 i 1 Brown. And also because Michael was running away i 2 from him, he did not feel he was an immediate threat 3 to keep his gun pointed on him. 4 Okay. 5 A As he was running after him, he told 6 Michael get on the ground, get on the ground. And 7 again, he said he thought Michael was going to run 8 for a while. 9 While he was running, Officer Wilson 10 noticed a line of three cars lined up behind him, 11 specifically he noticed a green Pontiac. He said he 12 did not fire any shots at Michael Brown as Michael 13 Brown was running away. 14 At some point, a short time after 15 Brown stopped and turned around to face Officer 16 Wilson. Officer Wilson will describe Brown as 17 grunting, he grunted, hopped and began toward 18 Officer Wilson. 19 When Brown hopped, he said he put his 20 right hand in his waistband. At the time Officer 21 Wilson didn't know whether or not he was armed. He 22 thought that perhaps Michael Brown was armed and 23 that's what he was going for. 24 He couldn't tell because Brown's 25 shirt had hung over his waistband. He said Brown's Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 167 1 left arm, left hand was clenched in a fist at his 2 side. 3 Wilson shouted stop, get on the 4 ground, and Wilson explained at this point during 5 the interview that Brown was just not listening to 6 any of his commands. 7 Wilson started shooting as Brown ran 8 towards him. Wilson shot more than once, but was 9 unsure how many times. And he realized he had 10 tunnel vision, so he shot more than one time and ll realized that all he was looking at was that right 12 hand. 13 Wilson, I'm sorry, he said during 14 this string of thoughts, Michael Brown had jerked 15 back as if he had been shot, but Officer Wilson did 16 not know where Michael Brown was hit. 17 So he doesn't describe seeing, like what 18 we see on TV, pow, pow, immediately blood spurt and 19 you would see it on the shirt, he doesn't describe 2O seeing anything like that? 21 A No, he didn't. 22 Okay. Did he say anything other than, you 23 know, you said he has testified before he had made 24 that motion towards his waist like perhaps he shot 25 him through the door, did he say anything else about Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 168 1 him making, appearing to be shot anywhere else? 2 A No, he didn't. 3 Okay. You can go ahead. 4 A He said after Michael Brown kind of jerked 5 back, he said Michael stopped briefly, but then 6 started running towards him again. He described 7 Michael Brown's chest as being puffed up. Michael 8 Brown's hands were still in his waistband. 9 So Officer Wilson began to back up. 10 Brown was about eight feet away from Wilson when, 11 and Wilson thought to himself, if he gets me, I'm 12 dead. 13 Brown ran towards Wilson with his 14 head leaning down. Officer Wilson thought he only 15 shot one time, but it could have been more. 16 He saw the bullet hit Michael Brown 17 in the head and he saw Michael Brown fall to the 18 ground face first. He said Michael Brown fell with 19 such, because he had such momentum going forward, 20 that when he landed on his face, his feet came up 21 behind him. 22 Officer Wilson made a statement all 23 he had to do was stop and Officer Wilson would have 24 stopped shooting. 25 At no point did Michael Brown comply Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 169 i 1 with Officer Wilson's command or his order to i 2 surrender and Michael Brown never had his hands up. 3 We had Officer Wilson draw just on a 4 white sheet of paper a simple depiction of the scene 5 and we are going to keep that with our case file. 6 After Michael Brown went to the 7 ground, he called over the radio on his handheld and 8 said, need a supervisor and everyone you've got." 9 While Officer Wilson was running 10 after Michael Brown, he was looking around for ll people because he was concerned with, he didn't know 12 if Michael Brown had a gun, he was concerned that 13 other people might get shot in the crossfire. 14 Wait a minute. So he kind of backtracked 15 in his statement a little bit. 16 A Yes. 17 Now he's already got to the point where 18 he's shot him and a fatal injury has him on the 19 ground. So now he backtracks a little bit and says 20 when he was chasing him? 21 A When he was chasing and I'm sorry, I'm 22 explain that a little better. He knows there are a 23 lot of people around once Michael Brown was on the 24 ground. He said while he was chasing him, this is 25 all within a matter of seconds, he didn't notice Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 170 1 anybody else. Once Michael Brown went to down to 2 the ground, he saw a lot of people in the community, 3 an apartment complex around. 4 He said Officer was the first 5 one on the scene. And he had, Officer Wilson had 6 Officer secure the scene or block the 7 street. 8 Wilson called for an ambulance. The 9 next two arrivals were Ferguson Police Department 10 Officer and at the time because there was 11 really, West Florissant to get onto Canfield is the 12 only way to connect to a major roadway, both were 13 west of the scene. So Officer Wilson had Officer 14 move his vehicle to the east side so they 15 could block that, so they could secure the scene, 16 maintain some scene control. 17 To block vehicular traffic that might be 18 coming westbound on Canfield? 19 A Yes. Officer Wilson described feeling 2O unsafe standing next to Brown's body since he was 21 the shooter. He thought, the area is known for 22 violence, guns, gangs and drugs. They did not have 23 a good relationship with the police. He kind of 24 felt he really had a spotlight on him. 25 He walked towards his vehicle which Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 171 1 was still running. He opened the door and got the 2 keys and shut it off. the only thing he touched was 3 the exterior of the vehicle. 4 So he reached in to turn the car off? 5 A And grabbed the keys. 6 And take the keys out of the vehicle? 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 And then he shut the door? 9 A Yes, ma'am. 10 He didn't get in the car? ll A He did not. 12 All right. 13 A I don't know if other officers arrived, 14 I'm sorry, the Ferguson Sergeant responded. 15 Wilson told Sergeant that he had killed Brown. 16 He quoted himself as saying, "he grabbed my gun and 17 I shot him." 18 told him to go, told Wilson to 19 go sit in Wilson's car. And Wilson said, no, 20 because then everyone will know it was me because 21 everyone around him is working and he's not. 22 So Officer, I'm sorry, Sergeant 23 told him to go back to the station, to not take 24 Wilson's vehicle. Sergeant had to let him take 25 Sergeant vehicle. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 172 1 And Wilson described that he thought 2 that it was strange that Sergeant wouldn't have 3 another Ferguson police officer go back with him 4 because he was just involved in a shooting, that 5 even minutes after the scene a lot of people showed 6 up. I think he described it the police officers 7 being outnumbered 300 to 1. 8 So he drove back to the station, he 9 noticed that his handheld radio was on channel 3 10 instead of channel 1. Channel 1 was the Ferguson 11 dispatch and channel 3 was St. Louis County Police 12 Department Dispatch. He wasn't even sure, while he 13 could hear St. Louis County, he wasn't sure if he 14 keyed up that they would hear him whatever he said. 15 He believes that the radio switch 16 during the struggle in the car, but he's not 17 positive, actually, because he's not usually on 18 channel 3, excuse me, not channel 3. 19 When Wilson got back to the station 20 he washed the blood off of his hands. His primary 21 concern was not of evidence, but as a biohazard or 22 what possible blood hazards it might attract. 23 So no one at the station photographed 24 Officer Wilson's hands because there was no one 25 there to photograph them. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 173 1 Right after he washed his hands he 2 went to the roll call room, he made his gun safe, 3 which means he took out any bullet and packaged it 4 as evidence, that's how he described it to us. 5 He did not wait for somebody else to 6 bag that as evidence because he saw blood on the 7 gun, thought it was Brown's blood, wanted to 8 preserve the DNA. He didn't want to risk because he 9 believed that would prove that he had his hand on 10 the gun. ll There was a Ferguson Police Officer 12 13 at the station when he arrived. 14 He told 15 he said to I just shot someone. Officer 16 did not ask him any more questions. 17 He said Officer may have 18 seen him package his gun, but he wasn't positive. 19 He called, Wilson called his attorney 20 when he got to the station. Officer 21 Wilson knew that was the attorney to call 22 if he was ever involved in a shooting. 23 They had EMS, which there is a block 24 house right next door to the Ferguson Police 25 Department. They had EMS come over and perform an Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 174 1 assessment. 2 Ferguson Police Lieutenant 3 came to check on Wilson. Lieutenant did not 4 ask any questions about what happened and also 5 Ferguson Police Officer came into the roll call 6 room to give Wilson card that he had, but 7 he already made the phone call. 8 Wilson knew not to talk to anyone 9 until he spoke with an attorney and he did not 10 comment on what happened. ll After the Attorney arrived, 12 St. Louis County Police Department Detective l3 and Lieutenant Colonel also came to 14 speak with Wilson. 15 Between and 16 Wilson, they noticed Wilson's face was red and 17 swollen, so they collectively decided they were 18 going to take him to the hospital. They took him to 19 Christian Northwest emergency room. Shortly before 20 they took him there, Wilson described Detective 2l started the interview at the station and 22 continued it after they got to the emergency room. 23 Officer Wilson described being 24 assaulted in the past as a police officer and said 25 it was not to the extent it had been with Brown. No Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 175 i 1 one had ever before attempted to take his firearm. 2 Officer Wilson had been trained to 3 use physical force when a physical threat was 4 present. 5 Michael Brown became an immediate 6 threat to Wilson's safety when Michael Brown came 7 into the car, when Michael Brown hit Officer Wilson. 8 Michael Brown went for Officer 9 Wilson's firearm and Michael Brown charged towards 10 Officer Wilson after Brown had already run away. 11 Michael Brown was a threat to the 12 safety of others as he ran away from Officer Wilson. 13 Now, what you're saying right now, this is 14 what Officer Wilson is telling you, correct? 15 A Yes, ma'am, correct. 16 This isn't your statementstatement. Correct, 1 l8 apologize for not clarifying that. Everything I was 19 saying was what was relayed to me by Mr. Wilson. In 20 no way, shape or form am I offering any opinion 21 whatsoever. 22 Okay. Is that pretty much the conclusion 23 of the statement? 24 A Yes. The last thing was it is the 25 sergeant's responsibility to write a use of force Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 176 i report. It is Wilson's responsibility to write an a incident report, but as of August 28th, 20l4, LUMP Officer Wilson had not been back to the station, so he has not had the opportunity to write an incident report. So he's basically told you that after the shooting and contacting, having contact with Sergeant he goes directly to the Ferguson 9 Police Department, can't talk to anybody about this 10 until possibly his attorney arrives and then ll 12 A Yes, ma'am. 13 And he also tells you that no one had 14 possession of his gun from the time he left the 15 scene until he made it safe and packaged it in that 16 envelope? 17 A Yes, ma'am. 18 He also told you, did he also tell you, 19 should use notes, did he tell you that he had 20 sustained any other injuries to the backs of his 2l hands or on his hands? 22 A He made a statement that he had no cuts. 23 Okay. 24 A So I don't know at what point he realized 25 that, but he believed the blood on his hands was Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 177 1 Michael Brown's. 2 Okay. Well, this is the 28th, this is too 3 far after the incident. 4 MS. ALIZADEH: Sheila, do you have any 5 additional? 6 MS. WHIRLEY: I do. 7 (By Ms. Whirley) So he, on August the 9th 8 this occurred and you didn't interview him until 9 August 28th? 10 A Correct. 11 However, he told you that he saw the 12 Cigarillos in Michael Brown's hand at some point? 13 A Yes, ma'am. 14 At what point was that? 15 A That was, initially when he made contact 16 with both Dorian Johnson and Michael Brown, his 17 attention was drawn to Dorian Johnson because Dorian 18 was first and also responded to his, hey, can you 19 guys use the sidewalk, or whatever verbiage he had 20 used. 21 When he said what's wrong with the 22 sidewalk, his attention was then turned towards 23 Michael Brown because Michael Brown responded to 24 him, "fuck what you have to say," or excuse me, I'm 25 sorry, yes, that's what he said. Once Michael Brown Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 178 1 said that, his attention was drawn, Officer Wilson's 2 attention was drawn to Michael Brown, at which time 3 he then saw the Cigarillos that Michael Brown was 4 holding. 5 All right. So he saw the Cigarillos 6 before any physical altercation, right? 7 A Yes, ma'am. 8 Did he say that when Michael Brown was 9 handing something over to Dorian Johnson, that he 10 knew he was handing him Cigarillos? ll A I believe so, but I'm just going to check 12 my notes. 13 Okay. 14 A Yes, he specifically stated. 15 He specifically stated he knew he was 16 handing him Cigarillos? 17 A Yes, ma'am. 18 Okay. He said he intended to wait on an 19 assist car before approaching these two males? 20 A Before attempting to arrest. 21 Did he say why, I guess that changed, 22 because what happened to change that, did he say? 23 A Well, he was going stall, try to have a conversation with them in a 25 sense, well, at least he was not going to ask them Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 179 i about the rObberY- I don't necessarily, forgive me, i I don't think he said arrest, he just said before he LUMP even mentioned anything about the stealing in progress, he was going to wait for other officers to get there. Okay. So did he, so he said he knew about the stealing in progress because of the Cigarillos. He was not going to mention the stealing in 9 progress, he was just going to stall them? 10 A Right. 11 Did he talk to you about what he went out 12 on his radio to say that he was doing a check with 13 two people, to send him a car? 14 A Yes. 15 Did he say that he told the dispatcher 16 hey, I've got two guys involved in this stealing at 17 this Ferguson Market and I see one with Cigarillos? 18 A Right, no, he did not say that. He 19 specially mentioned the fact he doesn't often asked 20 for assistance on calls, so when people hear him 21 over the radio saying, send me more cars, they know 22 he needs another car. 23 Why he didn't mention the stealing 24 would be my conjecturedidn't? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 180 A Correct, he did not. 2 But the dispatcher knows if he calls for 3 assistance, they need to send assistance right away? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 And he did call for assistance? 6 A Yes, ma'am. 7 He didn't tell anybody the nature of the 8 call? 9 A Correct. 10 Okay. Now, you mention that he said when ll Michael Brown was running away, was not an immediate l2 threat? 13 A To him. 14 To him. Did he say why he thought Michael 15 Brown would continue to run? I think that's what 16 you said that he knew he would continue to run? 17 A That was based on his training and 18 experience that he believed Michael Brown starting 19 to run away, and based off his training and 20 experience he believed Michael Brown was going to 2l continue running versus stop and turn around. 22 And did that factor into his thought 23 pattern, did he say? Did you understand what that 24 meant? 25 A In that limited perspective, yes. But Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 181 1 again, I also am trained in law enforcement, so I 2 understand. So to go further to explain why he may 3 have thought that would be putting my personal 4 understanding, not using, putting words into his 5 mouth. 6 Okay. And you certainly cannot speak for 7 that officer and we don't want you to. 8 A Correct, yes. 9 But tell me what you mean by your personal 10 experience as a law enforcement officer? ll A Someone running who runs away, who as he 12 described it, attempted to assault him. And then 13 was not going to and had not yet complied, would 14 likely not, but you would still be prepared at this 15 point for whatever happens. 16 So when Michael Brown said something like, 17 "fuck what you say," or something, did he say that 18 that was a comment that required him to confront him 19 about it? 20 A No, he did not. 21 Okay. So when he backed up, did he say he 22 backed up? 23 A He reversed the vehicle. 24 That was strictly about confronting about 25 the Cigarillos? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 182 1 A Yes, ma'am. 2 Did he say he ever said anything to them 3 about the Cigarillos? 4 A He did not. 5 Okay. Now, again, I wasn't clear, what 6 hand did he say Michael Brown put towards his 7 waistband? 8 A At what point, when he was at the vehicle 9 or when he had run away? 10 Okay. At what point did he say Michael ll Brown put his hands towards his waistband? I'm 12 talking about Michael Brown's own waistband. 13 A Yes, ma'am, I am sorry, let me clarify why 14 I have a question. 15 Okay. 16 A Because he was, when they were at the 17 vehicle and Officer Wilson fired the first shot, he 18 describe Michael Brown, more of his hip, but I 19 apologize because I picture his waistband, he put 20 both of his hands towards his 21 You talking about Michael Brown's 22 waistband? 23 A Yes, no, no, no, he said Michael Brown, 24 after he was hit put, Michael Brown's hand towards 25 Michael Brown's right hip. When they were Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 183 1 struggling for the gun, he twisted towards Officer 2 Wilson's left hip. 3 Okay. 4 A But I'm sorry, Michael Brown ran away, 5 stops, turns around, grunts, hops and stick his 6 right hand in his waistband. 7 Okay. 8 A That's as Officer Wilson described it. 9 Okay. So once Michael Brown goes down 10 after he's shot and he's prone on the ground, 11 correct? 12 A Yes, ma'am. 13 What did Officer Wilson say he did? 14 A What Officer Wilson did? 15 Uh?huh. 16 A He said at that point in time they were 17 approximately 8 feet apart. He said he never, he 18 didn't approach. 19 He didn't check for a pulse? 20 A He did not. 21 Or call an ambulance? 22 A No, he did not. He radioed, "send me a 23 supervisor and every car you got." 24 When he said he asked for a supervisor, he 25 said someone was lying either injured or dead on the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 184 1 ground? 2 A He did not. 3 Now, you've had occasion to collect his 4 employee or personnel records; is that right? 5 A Yes, ma'am. 6 Have you had a chance to review them? 7 A Yes. 8 Is there anything of evidentiary value 9 when I ask that question about evidentiary value, I 10 mean anything that's significantly bad or good about ll his records, or that might factor into this case? 12 A I did. I did read that Officer Wilson 13 received a letter of accommodation for handling a 14 call when he was an officer with Jennings Police 15 Department. 16 Anything else? 17 A There was, there were, he did have use of 18 force reports, but that's standard practice. I 19 didn't see anything out of the ordinary. There was 20 a complaint made against him and two other officers 21 describing that was ultimately found to be 22 unfounded, to describe Officer Wilson and two others 23 attacks, an African?American male who was just 24 walking down the street in the city and used racial 25 slurs towards him, beat him up so badly that he had Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 185 i 1 bleeding on his brain. i 2 What was found to have actually 3 happened was this gentleman was breaking in and was 4 inside Officer Wilson's car. The three officers who 5 were off duty at the time went outside and tried to 6 detain him, he ran away. 7 When they chased him, I don't know 8 which one of them tackled him on the ground, he hit 9 his face on the way down. 10 This was an internal affairs ll investigation, the investigation was completed and 12 they discussed with the hospital that the 13 individual, the person who was either the victim of 14 use of force or stealing a car, his injuries were 15 consistent with what the officers described and that 16 there was no bleeding of the brain. 17 The woman who made the complaint was 18 not an eyewitness, but the aunt of the individual. 19 The subject that was injured? 20 A Yes, ma'am. 21 Or that committed the crime? 22 MS. WHIRLEY: Anyone else, questions? 23 Just one comment, sorry, 24 The one comment you said that really 25 caught my attention, I'd like kind of go with more Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 186 i 1 if we could, you mentioned that Darren in reference a 2 to this neighborhood said it is an area known for 3 gangs, Violence, guns and he didn't feel safe. And 4 I think that really, I don't know, is alarming to 5 hear. So how would you kind of say that fit into 6 the case or was there more depth to it when he said 7 thatwith, I guess the atmosphere. 9 He described that when almost immediately after, 10 he's not sure when it happened, but once Michael 11 Brown was down on the ground, the residents were 12 outside. He said, and the crowd kept growing 13 increasingly hostile because he knows from being a 14 police officer in that area, people generally don't 15 like to see the police. 16 So based on the fact of what just 17 happened, he did not feel safe. Whether it means 18 by, it would be my conjecture and I can't do that. 19 . Is there 20 any part of Officer Wilson's testimony or statement 21 that you believe is in conflict with any of the 22 physical evidence you are aware of? 23 A I don't, I cannot make that judgment. My 24 sole purpose is simply to collect the facts. It is 25 up to the prosecuting attorneys and any future jury Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 187 1 to kind of make that determination. 2 MS. ALIZADEH: Can I ask you a question, 3 though, prior to you questioning Darren Wilson, to 4 your knowledge had he read any police reports 5 documenting the investigation? 6 A Not to my knowledge, no. 7 MS. ALIZADEH: Have any reports, first of 8 all if he has, I haven't gotten any reports, so I 9 don't know where anybody else would have them. To 10 your knowledge, he had no knowledge of the ll investigation? 12 A Correct. 13 MS. ALIZADEH: And then regarding autopsy 14 reports, to your knowledge, Dr. who was 15 the medical examiner in this case, he had not read 16 that report; is that correct? 17 A No, he had not. If Officer Wilson knew l8 anything about the case, it is the same thing anyone 19 who heard in the news what was ever released to the 20 news is what he would know. Ferguson Police 21 Department is not doing an investigation, that was 22 turned immediately over, the homicide investigation 23 was turned immediately over to St. Louis County. 24 As far as civil rights is concerned, 25 FBI is notoriously tight lipped. So, no, we would Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 188 1 not give him any information. 2 MS. ALIZADEH: We can ask him when he 3 testifies what he may have learned or whatever or 4 what have. Are you aware that there is all kind of 5 rumors and talk about various things involving what 6 people believe happened in this case, correct? 7 A Yes. 8 And to your knowledge though, as far as 9 the physical evidence like where the shell casings 10 were or where blood was found or any of that type of 11 evidence, he wouldn't have privy to? 12 A No, he would not be privy to, other than 13 being actually on the scene, but no, no reports. 14 . When 15 you first, when he said he got to the police 16 station, he washed his hands and he didn't have 17 anybody take pictures because there was nobody else 18 there. But then later he said that he saw 19 a police officer, so was 20 there. Was the only officer that was there? 21 A At that time, I think the way I 22 interpreted his statement to us is he gets to the 23 station, no one is there that he sees immediately. 24 I don't believe he went searching, he didn't say he 25 went searching, but he has blood on his hands. His Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 189 i 1 first thought is let me get this off. a 2 So when he goes to the roll call 3 room, then he says Officer 4 5 And then they have whatever brief 6 conversation that he was involved in a shooting, 7 that's it. 8 Your interview with him 9 was on 8/28? 10 A It was. 11 The incident took place 12 on 8/9? 13 A It did. 14 Was there a reason why 15 you took that long of a time between, I think that 16 you were in an interview with a witness the day 17 after or three days after it took place? 18 A Yes, ma'am. 19 If it is about him. 20 A Correct. 21 was just wondering why 22 the interviews were so 23 A I know that. 24 I'm just curious. 25 A No, the reason why because he had been Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 190 1 interviewed, because we had an audiotaped statement 2 and what was more important, we had witnesses out 3 there who had not been interviewed. We felt it was 4 most important to get those witnesses. 5 MS. WHIRLEY: 6 Yes, . I want to 7 go back to when Michael Brown says, "fuck what you 8 have to say." 9 A Yes. 10 Officer Wilson puts his ll car in reverse? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Did he mention he said, 14 what did you say? 15 A He didn't specifically, that's not in my 16 notes. Are you asking if Officer Wilson asked what 17 did you say? 18 Yes. 19 A No, I can't remember if I remember from 20 the interview or from hearing his statement. I 2l didn't specifically write it down and normally if I 22 don't specifically remember from that interview or 23 write it down, it doesn't mean it wasn't said, I 24 don't recall. You also mention, I Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 191 1 guess, the part where he was charging him, he had 2 his hands, can I stand up? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 He had his hands on the 5 right side? 6 A Yes, he said right. 7 And he started charging 8 him. 9 A Yes, sir. 10 With his head down, is ll that correct? 12 A When he said head down, I don't know, let 13 me refer to my notes to make expire I have it right. 14 I'm just saying because I 15 guess he's listed like at 16 A Yes, sir. l7 Seems that would be kind 18 of awkward for somebody to be charging you that way? 19 A It was, I can give me you my impression 20 that I don't think it was quite at that right angle 21 that you demonstrated from, just to describe for the 22 court reporter. He said head down. At what angle, 23 I'm not sure. 24 MS. WHIRLEY: Can you demonstrate the 25 angle, did he demonstrate the angle for you? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 192 1 A Leaning forward, yes I don't 2 MS. WHIRLEY: Can you stand up and show us 3 what he showed you? 4 A Just leaned over. 5 MS. ALIZADEH: Any other questions? 6 To 7 coincide with what he said, the question he asked, 8 is it possible that he could have got hit there and 9 bent over from pain? 10 A I can't answer that. I'm not a forensic ll pathologist or a doctor, that would be more 12 I did have a question. 13 When Officer Wilson, going back to the office. 14 A Yes, ma'am. 15 The department office. 16 Did he say after he washed his hands why he did not 17 write a report? 18 A No, he didn't. 19 Did he have, did you ask 20 the question? 21 A I didn't. I can only speak from generally 22 in those cases when an officer is involved in a 23 shooting, I know they tell us to not talk to anybody 24 until our attorney is present. So that could be a 25 huge factor. Is that his answer? I don't know, I Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 193 1 was just to answer generally. 2 MS. WHIRLEY: 3 I'm just hoping that 4 have written this down correctly. But I believe you 5 had mentioned that Officer Wilson, Darren Wilson 6 said he went to his vehicle, which was still 7 running, reached in and shut off the car. That's 8 the first I heard of that. 9 A He pulled the keys out of the car. 10 It was still running? ll A Yes, that's the impression that I got that 12 the car is in park, I'm assuming because the car 13 would have been rolling away if he didn't at least 14 put it in park. 15 Okay. 16 A He didn't specifically say that, he got 17 the keys out of the car. 18 Okay. 19 A I thought it was still running. 20 Okay. 21 A I thought that was what he had said. 22 That was your 23 interpretation? 24 A No, I thought he said that. 25 Were those his words? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 194 1 A I believe those were his words. 2 You believe those were his 3 words. And then he goes on to state, if I'm 4 understanding this correctly, that Sergeant is 5 that correct, 6 A Yes. 7 Okay. Told him to get 8 back in his vehicle, is that my understanding? 9 A Yes. 10 In the vehicle in question ll that was involved in this incident? 12 A That is what Sergeant told him, that 13 is not what Officer Wilson did. 14 Okay. 15 A That's what Officer Wilson said Sergeant 16 told him. 17 Okay. And he didn't do it 18 and then told him to take personal 19 patrol car and drive back to Ferguson. Is this in 20 with another officer in the vehicle with him or 21 another? 22 A By himself. 23 By himself. I thought 24 there was another officer involved or something. 25 My understanding, like I said, when he got Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 195 i to the Ferguson Police Department, he had blood on a 2 his hands reported. He wasn't photographed, nobody 3 knows how much blood he had on his hands, anything 4 left in vehicle? 5 A That's a good question. I don't know. I 6 don't know that Sergeant vehicle was looked 7 at. 8 Okay. 9 MS. WHIRLEY: Anything else? Kathi? 10 MS. ALIZADEH: I've got nothing else. ll Again, you were active in other aspects of this 12 investigation and should we need to recall you on a 13 future date, would you be available to testify? 14 A I would. 15 MS. ALIZADEH: All right. Nothing 16 further. 17 (This is the end of 18 testimony.) l9 (Recess) 20 MS. ALIZADEH: This is Kathi Alizadeh. It 2l is about 3:20 on the 16th of September. We are 22 about to call our final witness, Darren Wilson. And 23 as usual, Sheila and I will be asking him questions 24 and you are free to ask questions either 25 interrupting or wait until the end, however you feel Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 196 i is better for the flow of things, a He is here and prepared to answer LUMP questions. I would tell you that any conversations that he has had with his attorney, because you heard him talk and we have heard testimony that he has had an attorney during parts of this, anything that he and his attorney have talked about are what we call privileged communications. And so you can't ask him 9 about what did you tell your attorney or what did 10 your attorney say about that, all right. 11 Any other questions that you think are 12 relevant are fair game, but the communications 13 between anyone and their attorney are privileged and 14 we can't inquire about that, all right? All right. 15 That being said, I am going to let him walk in and 16 get sworn. l7 DARREN WILSON, 18 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 19 testify the truth, the whole truth, and 20 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 21 deposes and says in reply to oral 22 interrogatories, propounded as follows, to?wit: 23 EXAMINATION 24 BY MS. WHIRLEY: 25 So introduce yourself to the grand jurors, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 197 1 tell us your name and spell your name for the court 2 reporter, please? 3 A My name is Darren Wilson. 4 last name 5 Have you appeared before this grand jury 6 before? 7 A No, I have not. 8 So you've never, nobody is familiar to you 9 here, correct? 10 A No, ma'am. ll All right. You are currently on leave or 12 what's your status right now? 13 A I am on paid administrative leave. 14 Now, we have never met before, have we? 15 A No, ma'am. 16 And we did meet right before you came here 17 today, when you came here today and I talked to you 18 and your attorneys? 19 A Correct. 20 And you came here voluntarily? 21 A Correct. 22 And you were told that if you wanted to 23 consult with your attorneys you could? 24 A Correct. 25 Okay. And you want to be here and tell Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 198 1 the jurors what happened; is that correct? 2 A That's correct. 3 So August the 9th of 2014, you worked as a 4 police officer for the Ferguson Police Department? 5 A Correct. 6 That means you are a certified police 7 officer? 8 A Correct. 9 Had you completed all your training and 10 kept up with your continuing education as a ll certified officer does? 12 A Yes, ma'am. 13 You have the power of arrest? 14 A Correct. 15 In the State of Missouri? 16 A Yes, ma'am. 17 What's your height? 18 A just a shy under 19 A_little under 20 A Yes, ma'am. 21 And how much do you currently weigh? 22 A 210?ish. 23 That's been your weight for a while? 24 A Yeah, it fluctuates between 205, 212, 213, 25 something like that. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 199 i 1 Of course everybody knows why we're here, i 2 so let's just get to it. 3 A Okay. 4 Let's talk about your day on August the 5 9th. What shift did you work? 6 A Day shift. 7 And what shift would that be, what hours? 8 A 6:30 a.m. to 6:30 p.m. 9 Twelve hour shift? 10 A Correct. 11 Had you worked the day before? 12 A Yes, I had. 13 Same shift? 14 A Yes. 15 You weren't working like midnights the 16 night before? 17 A No, ma'am. 18 When you started your shift, did anything 19 happen that you consider very eventful? I mean, 20 earlier that day, prior to 10:00 let's say, 10:00 21 a.m. 22 A No, ma'am. 23 Had you answered any calls prior to 10:00 24 a.m 25 A I don't recall, I don't believe so, but I Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 200 don't recall, nothing stands out in my memory. 2 It was a pretty quiet day initially? 3 A Yes, ma'am. 4 Now, at some point you had a sick call, a 5 sick baby, I think? 6 A Yes, ma'am. 7 And that would have been ll?ish or so? 8 A I think it was around ll:30?ish, somewhere 9 in that vicinity. 10 That was near the Canfield Green ll Apartments? 12 A Yes, ma'am, it was actually past them in 13 the adjoining apartment complex. 14 And what do they call those apartments? 15 A I believe that apartment is called 16 Northwinds. 17 Northwinds. Okay. And it is like east of 18 the Canfield Green, behind those apartments? 19 A Correct. 20 When you went on that call, did you have 2l assistance? 22 A No, I did not. 23 All right. 24 A Not police assistance. 25 No police assistance? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 201 1 A No. 2 You handled that call by yourself? 3 A Yes, ma'am. 4 And did you have any confrontation with 5 anybody or was everything, was it a pretty as a 6 matter of fact call? 7 A It was a pretty laid?back call. It was 8 for a sick infant, I believe, only a couple months 9 old. 10 Okay. II A I believe she had a fever, I'm not 12 100 percent sure. 13 Let me ask this question, can everybody l4 hear him? Speak up. I usually stand in the back of 15 the room so we can have a conversation. As you can 16 tell, my voice really carries, so try to, you know, 17 speak up so everybody can hear you. 18 A Okay. 19 So the baby was an infant? 20 A Correct. 21 Was the baby not breathing, what was the 22 call, do you recall? 23 A I believe it was for a fever. 24 Fever you said, I'm sorry. 25 Ambulance arrived? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 202 A Yes, ambulance arrived at the same time I 2 arrived. 3 Okay. Baby went to the hospital with its 4 mother? 5 A The mother and baby were transported. 6 After that, what did you do? 7 A I returned to my vehicle and then started 8 to leave the apartment complex. 9 Okay. Did you get any other calls between 10 the time of the sick baby call and your interaction ll with Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson? 12 A While on the sick case call, a call came 13 out for a stealing in progress from the local market 14 on West Florissant, that the suspects traveling 15 towards QT. I didn't hear the entire call, I was on 16 my portable radio, which isn't exactly the best. I 17 did hear that a suspect was wearing a black shirt l8 and that a box of Cigarillos was stolen. 19 Okay. And was this your call or you just 20 heard the callcall, I heard the call. 22 Some other officers were dispatched to 23 that call? 24 A I believe two others were. 25 Was it a call that you were going to go to Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 203 1 also? 2 A No. 3 So you weren't really geared to handle 4 that call? 5 A No. 6 Tell us how you were dressed that day on 7 August the 9th? 8 A How I was dressed? 9 Yes. 10 A I was wearing my full department uniform, ll light duty boots, dark navy blue pants, my issue 12 duty belt, with my uniform shirt and that was it. 13 All right. And so when you say, when you 14 are in uniform, you were not a detective? 15 A No, ma'am. 16 You weren't dressed the way you are 17 dressed here today? 18 A No, ma'am. 19 So your uniform is like a uniform police 20 officer and when you are walking around I can 21 clearly see oh, that's a police officer? 22 A Yes, ma'am, I believe it is french blue 23 uniform shirt, had patches for Ferguson on both 24 sides, badge, name tag. 25 Okay. And you were in what type of Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 204 1 vehicleChevy Tahoe police vehicle 3 fully marked with a light bar. 4 Fully marked, okay. Tell us, you were 5 mentioning your radio or what is this you spoke 6 about? 7 A Walkie is what we normally call it. 8 I'm sorry? 9 A Our walkie is what we normally call it. 10 Like a walkie?talkie or something? ll A Yes, ma'am. 12 And it did work that day? 13 A Yes. 14 Okay. And it was on which shoulder? 15 A I wear it on my left shoulder. 16 Are you left or right?handed? 17 A I'm right?handed. 18 Okay. Tell us what else is on your duty 19 belt? 20 A have my, I'll go in order. Magazine 2l pouches sit right here, my weapon is on my right 22 hip, I have an asp that sits kind of behind me and 23 kind of to the right and then a set of handcuffs, 24 another set of handcuffs, my OC spray or mace is on 25 this side and then my radio and that's it. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 205 i 1 Okay. So your mace is on your left side i 2 and your gun is on your right side? 3 A Correct. 4 What type of weapon did you carry? 5 A I carry Sig Sauer, a P229 .40 caliber. 6 How many cartridges or bullets would it 7 holdthe magazine and one goes in 9 the chamber, so a total of 13. 10 You had a couple spare magazines on your ll belt? 12 A Correct. 13 That had 12 each? 14 A Correct. 15 Did you carry a taser? 16 A No. 17 Why not? 18 A I normally don't carry a taser. We only 19 have a select amount. Usually there is one 20 available, but I usually elect not to carry one. It 21 is not the most comfortable thing. They are very 22 large, I don't have a lot of room in the front for 23 it to be positioned. 24 Had you been trained on how to use a Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 206 i 1 A Yes, ma'am. i 2 Have you ever used a taser before? 3 A I believe I have, but it wasn't one that I 4 carried. It was one that I used from someone else 5 on a scene. I can't remember the time or where I 6 used it. 7 You prefer not to have a taser? 8 A Correct. 9 So that day you had mace, you said, on 10 your left side? ll A Correct. 12 All right. You are coming west, is it on 13 Canfield Drive? 14 A Yes, I started out on Glenark and then I 15 turn onto Bahama and then onto Glen Owen, and then I 16 turned on Windward, which actually turns into 17 Canfield Green and that's where I was going west on 18 that. 19 West on Canfield Drive? 20 A Yes, ma'am. 2l Okay. We are going to get a map here 22 shortly so you can kind you are going west on Canfield 24 Drive, what happens? 25 A As I was going west on Canfield, I Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 207 1 observed two men in the middle of the street, they 2 are walking along the double yellow line single file 3 order. 4 Okay. And you say something to them, did 5 they say something to you first? 6 A No, you want me to just go with the whole 7 thing? 8 Sure, go ahead, let's start there. 9 A I see them walking down the middle of the 10 street. And first thing that struck me was they're 11 walking in the middle of the street. I had already 12 seen a couple cars trying to pass, but they couldn't 13 have traffic normal because they were in the middle, 14 so one had to stop to let the car go around and then 15 another car would come. And the next thing I 16 noticed was the size of the individuals because 17 either the first one was really small or the second 18 one was really big. 19 And just for the conversation, I 20 didn't know this then, but the first one's name was 21 Dorian Johnson, the second one was Michael Brown. 22 That was discovered, I think, the following day is 23 when I learned the names. I had never seen them 24 before. 25 And then the next thing I notice was Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 208 that Brown had bright yellow socks on that had green marijuana leaves as a pattern on them. They were LUMP the taller socks that go halfway up your shin. As I approached them, I stopped a couple feet in front of Johnson as they are walking towards me, I am going towards them. And I allowed him to keep walking towards my window, which was down. As Johnson came around my driver's side 9 mirror I said, "why don't you guys walk on the 10 sidewalk." He kept walking, as he is walking he 11 said, "we are almost to our destination." 12 Do you think he used those words 13 destination, we are almost to our destination? 14 A Yes, ma'am. He said we are almost to our 15 destination and he pointed this direction over my 16 vehicle. So like in a northeasternly (sic) 17 direction. And as he did that, he kept walking and 18 Brown was starting to come around the mirror and as 19 he came around the mirror I said, "well, what's 2O wrong with the sidewalk." Brown then replied, um, 21 it has vulgar languageBrown then replied, "fuck what you have to 24 say." And when he said that, it drew my attention 25 totally to Brown. It was a very unusual and not Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 209 i expected response from a simple request. a When 1 start looking at Brown, first LUMP thing 1 notice is in his right hand, his hand is full of Cigarillos. And that's when it clicked for me because I now saw the Cigarillos, I looked in my mirror, 1 did a doublecheck that Johnson was wearing a black shirt, these are the two from the stealing. And they kept walking, as I said, 9 they never once stopped, never got on the sidewalk, 10 they stayed in the middle of the roadradio and Frank 21 is 12 my call sign that day, 1 said Frank 21 I'm on 13 Canfield with two, send me another car. 14 I then placed my car in reverse and 15 backed up and I backed up just past them and then 16 angled my vehicle, the back of my vehicle to kind of 17 cut them off kind to keep them somewhat contained. 18 As I did that, I go to open the door 19 and I say, hey, come here for a minute to Brown. As 20 I'm opening the door he turns, faces me, looks at me 21 and says, "what the fuck are you going to do about 22 it", and shuts my door, slammed it shut. I haven't 23 even got it open enough to get my leg out, it was 24 only a few inches. 25 I then looked at him and told him to Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 210 1 get back and he was just staring at me, almost like 2 to intimidate me or to overpower me. The intense 3 face he had was just not what I expected from any of 4 this. 5 I then opened my door again and used 6 my door to push him backwards, and while I'm doing 7 that I tell him to, "get the fuck back", and then I 8 use my door to push him. 9 You tell him to, "get the fuck back"? 10 A Yes. ll Okay. 12 A He then grabs my door again and shuts my 13 door. At that time is when I saw him coming into my 14 vehicle. His head was higher than the top of my 15 car. And I see him ducking and as he is ducking, 16 his hands are up and he is coming in my vehicle. 17 I had shielded myself in this type of 18 manner and kind of looked away, so I don't remember 19 seeing him come at me, but I was hit right here in 20 the side of the face with a fist. I don't think it 21 was a full?on swing, I think it was a full?on swing, 22 but not a full shot. I think my arm deflected some 23 of it, but there was still a significant amount of 24 contact that was made to my face. 25 Now, he was hitting you with what hand? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 211 A I believe it was his right, just judging 2 by how we were situated. 3 Right. 4 A But like I said, I had turned away, had my 5 eyes, I was shielding myself. 6 Where did you see the Cigarillos at? 7 A They were in his right hand. 8 Okay. Were there any broken Cigarillos or 9 anything in your car later? 10 A No, I don't remember seeing anything on ll the ground or anything. 12 Okay. 13 A After he hit me then, it stopped for a 14 second. He kind of like, I remember getting hit and 15 he kind of like grabbed and pulled, and then it 16 stopped. When I looked up, if this is my car door, 17 I'm sitting here facing that way, he's here. He l8 turns like this and now the Cigarillos I see in his 19 left hand. He's going like this and he says, "hey 20 man, hold these." 2l So you start out with Cigarillos in his 22 right hand? 23 A Correct. 24 At this point they are in his left hand? 25 A Correct. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 212 1 He didn't have like two hands of 2 Cigarillos? 3 A No, I only saw them in one hand. 4 You only saw them in one, okay, go ahead. 5 A And he reaches back and he says, "hey man, 6 hold these." I'm assuming to Johnson, but I 7 couldn't see Johnson from my line of sight. 8 But you could tell he was giving Johnson 9 Cigarillos? 10 A Yes, I saw them in his hand go around. ll All right. 12 A And he said, "hey man, hold these." And 13 at that point I tried to hold his right arm because 14 it was like this at my car. This is my car window. 15 I tried to hold his right arm and use my left hand 16 to get out to have some type of control and not be 17 trapped in my car any more. And when I grabbed him, 18 the only way I can describe it is I felt like a 19 five?year?old holding onto Hulk Hogan. 20 Holding onto a what? 2l A Hulk Hogan, that's just how big he felt 22 and how small I felt just from grasping his arm. 23 And as I'm trying to open the door is 24 when, and I can't really get it open because he is 25 standing only maybe 6 inches from my door, but as I Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 213 was trying to pull the handle, I see his hand coming back around like this and he hit me with this part LUMP of his right here, just a full swing all the way back around and hit me right here. (indicating) After he did that, next thing I remember is how do I get this guy away from me. What do I do not to get beaten inside my car. I remember having my hands up and I 9 thought to myself, you know, what do I do. 10 I considered using my mace, however, 11 I wasn't willing to sacrifice my left hand, which is 12 blocking my face to go for it. I couldn't reach 13 around on my right to get it and if I would have 14 gotten it out, the chances of it being effective 15 were slim to none. His hands were in front of his 16 face, it would have blocked the mace from hitting 17 him in the face and if any of that got on me, I know 18 what it does to me and I would have been out of the 19 game. I wear contacts, if that touches any part of 20 my eyes, then I can't see at all. 21 Like I said, I don't carry a taser, I 22 considered my asp, but to get that out since I kind 23 of sit on it, I usually have to lean forward and 24 pull myself forward to the steering wheel to get it 25 out. Again, I wasn't willing to let go of the one Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 214 1 defense I had against being hit. The whole time, I 2 can't tell you if he was swinging at me or grabbing 3 me or pushing me or what, but there was just stuff 4 going on and I was looking down figuring out what to 5 do. 6 Also, when I was grabbing my asp, I 7 knew if I did even get it out, I'm not going to be 8 able to expand it inside the car or am I going to be 9 able to make a swing that will be effective in any 10 manner. ll Next I considered my flashlight. I 12 keep that on the passenger side of the car. I 13 wasn't going to, again, reach over like this to grab 14 it and then even if I did grab it, would it even be 15 effective. We are so close and confined. 16 So the only other option I thought I 17 had was my gun. I drew my gun, I turned. It is 18 kind of hard to describe it, I turn and I go like 19 this. He is standing here. I said, "get back or 20 I'm going to shoot you." 21 He immediately grabs my gun and says, 22 "you are too much of a pussy to shoot me." The way 23 he grabbed it, do you have a picture? 24 I do have some pictures of your gun. 25 Well, you can tell us if it is your gun, I believe Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 215 gun was basically pointed this way. 3 I'm in my car, he's here, it is pointed this way, 4 but he grabs it with his right hand, not his left, 5 he grabs with his right one and he twists it and 6 then he digs it down into my hip. (indicating) 7 MS. WHIRLEY: Kathi, can you do the 8 computer? I'm going to let you see these photos 9 from Grand Jury Exhibit Number 10, and there's some 10 numbers on the back of these photos just so we can ll keep track of what you are looking at. And I'm 12 going to announce what they are and then I will let 13 you tell us a little bit about them, okay? 14 A All right. 15 Let me just get my glasses. These are 16 Grand Jury Exhibit Number 10, but the photo that I'm 17 showing you is 60, 66, 63, so they're not in order 18 and then 69, so if you could look at all of those 19 photos. And tell me if that represents what you 20 know to be your weapon and your ammunition? 2l A Yes, it doescan get this, let me try 23 to get this started. We'll talk a little bit about 24 while we're working on that. So those are photos of 25 your weapons; is that correct? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 216 i 1 A Yes, ma'am. i 2 And would those photos help you to sort of 3 explain or to explain to the grand jurors what took 4 place regarding the struggle with your weapon that 5 you were trying to describe to us? 6 A I think this would be the most helpful. 7 Okay. And we are going to put it on the 8 projector as soon as we can and have you, you know, 9 tell us what's going on. 10 I have a few other questions while we ll are waiting on that. So during the time that he's, 12 you said Michael Brown is striking you in the face 13 through the car door? 14 A Right. 15 And it was your opinion that you needed to 16 pull out your weapon because why did you feel that 17 way, I don't want to put words in your mouth? 18 A I felt that another one of those punches 19 in my face could knock me out or worse. I mean it 20 was, he's obviously bigger than I was and stronger 2l and the, I've already taken two to the face and I 22 didn't think I would, the third one could be fatal 23 if he hit me right. 24 You thought he could hit you and it would 25 be a fatal injury? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 217 1 A Or at least unconscious and then who knows 2 what would happen to me after that. 3 There you go, thank you, Kathi. 4 You had not ever met Michael Brown or 5 Dorian Johnson before this date? 6 A No, ma'am. 7 Never had any interaction with them at 8 all? 9 A No, ma'am. 10 Okay. So this is Number 60. Why don't ll you come over here, Darren Wilson, and kind of tell 12 us. 13 A If you picture that 14 You can do it from there? 15 A I can probably show with my hands. 16 You want to use this to kind of? 17 A No, I'll just do it with my hands. If 18 that's pointed at me, I'm holding that like this. 19 So it is pointed at, I would be Brown, he grabbed 20 with his hand over the top like this manner and then 21 twisted it down like this. And when it twisted, it 22 ended up being like this in my hip. That's all I 23 needed that for. (indicating) 24 That's all you needed? 25 A Yeah, just so I can show them how it Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 218 1 twisted and went down into my hip. 2 Okay. Since we have the projector up, 3 let's look at some of the photographs because you 4 did go to the doctor or to the hospital; is that 5 right? 6 A Yes, ma'am. 7 And you mentioned being struck in the face 8 before you pulled your weapon? 9 A Yes, ma'am. 10 So let's just look at those before we move 11 on since we are here. These are also from State's 12 Exhibit Number, Grand Jury Exhibit Number 10. 13 If you could look at these photos, 14 you do know those to be you, correct? 15 A Yes, ma'am. 16 All right. So you give me that one, I 17 guess I'm going to let Kathi maybe help me here. 18 This is photo number six. And that's you? 19 A Correct. 20 Is that you at the hospital on August the 21 9th? 22 A Yes, ma'amthe hospital? 24 A For my face being swollen. 25 Was there any other injuries that you had Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 219 i 1 other than your face? i 2 A They had discovered there that I had 3 scratches on the back of my neck. 4 Okay. Anything else, tell us about your 5 injuries? 6 A I had a swollen right cheek, my left they 7 said was swollen, I had scratches around my hairline 8 in the back and I think on the side of my neck, but 9 that's all that I remember. 10 Any injuries to your hand? II A No. 12 Okay, let's see. Show me which one of 13 those photos duplicates the injury to your face? 14 A That one you can see the right side of my 15 face swollen pretty good. 16 Okay. And this is Number 12? 17 A That one looks like it has bruising and 18 swelling on it. 19 Where is the swelling to your face on that 20 oneright side, that was the main 22 injury. 23 Point to it for us? 24 MS. ALIZADEH: Here, if you want to use 25 the laser pointer, hopefully it will work. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 220 A Right in this area. (indicating) 2 (By Ms. Whirley) That's the swelling to 3 your face? 4 A Yes, ma'am. 5 Okay. And this is Number 30 and you said 6 this depicts the swelling too? 7 A I think it shows the bruising on the side 8 of my face. The bruising on the side of your face. 9 10 And kind of show us where you see the bruising? ll A This area right here. (indicating) 12 MS. WHIRLEY: Yes. 13 . Can we pass 14 those around? 15 MS. ALTZADEH: I'm going to, yeah, I'm 16 going to. 17 A That was kind of the same. 18 (By Ms. Whirley) Okay. This is number 24? 19 MS. ALTZADEH: Wait a minute, there is 20 two. 2l MS. WHIRLEY: 24 is what I'm trying to 22 look at. 23 Ms. ALIZADEH: This is 27. 24 MS. WHIRLEY: This is 24. Now, what are 25 we looking at there? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 221 1 A That's the left side of my face. 2 (By Ms. Whirley) So you had, describe what 3 we are looking at? 4 A I can't really tell from that. 5 Okay. 6 A I can't see from this angle. 7 Let me let you look at it again. 8 A I think there was swelling to my face in 9 that area too. I never saw my face after, this is 10 the first I've seen. 11 Does it look like swelling? You know your 12 face better than we do, does that look like 13 swelling? 14 A I can't tell with that angle with the 15 ruler. 16 You can't tell on that one? What about 17 this one? 18 A That one I can tell from down by my, down 19 in this area looks swollen to me. 20 Okay. And this is Number 27. Were there 21 any other photos that you think kind of show your 22 injuries? 23 A This one you can see the scratches in that 24 area. 25 Okay Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 222 1 A Here is a close?up of it. 2 This is Number scratches on the back of your neck? 4 A Right in here. (indicating) 5 Okay. 6 A This is just showing the red marks on my 7 face on this one, on my neck on that one. 8 Okay. This is Number 54. And you can 9 kind of point to where the red marks are on your 10 neck? ll A It is hard to see on that. It is in this 12 area right there. (indicating) 13 Okay. 14 A Most of those are the same. 15 Okay. Any more of those you want us to 16 see? 17 A It is hard to tell from the pictures and 18 that angle. I think the best one was looking 19 straight forward at me. 20 Okay. And they've already got those. All 21 right, thank you. 22 All right. So you suffered the 23 injury to your face and you showed us where the gun 24 was grabbed and at the time when there is a struggle 25 for the gun, take us from there. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 223 A He grabs my gun, says, "you are too much of a pussy to shoot me." The gun goes down into my LUMP hip and at that point I thought I was getting shot. I can feel his fingers try to get inside the trigger guard with my finger and I remember envisioning a bullet going into my leg. I thought that was the next step. I'm going to stand back so you can talk a 9 little louder. 10 A As I'm looking at it, I'm not paying ll attention to him, all I can focus on is just this 12 gun in my leg. 13 I was able to kind of shift 14 like this and then push it down, because he is 15 pushing down like to keep it pinned on my leg. So 16 when I slid, I let him use his momentum to push it 17 down and it was kind of pointed to where the seat 18 buckle would attach on the floorboard on the side of 19 my car. 20 Next thing I remember putting my left 2l hand on it like this, putting my elbow into the back 22 of my seat and just pushing with all I could 23 forward. 24 Were you saying anything? I don't know. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 224 I You don't know if he was saying either? 2 A I heard stuff, but I couldn't tell you 3 what it was. 4 Okay. 5 A Like I said, I was just so focused on 6 getting the gun out of me. When this point, he is still holding onto it and I pulled 8 the trigger and nothing happens, it just clicked. I 9 pull it again, it just clicked again. 10 At this point I'm like why isn't this ll working, this guy is going to kill me if he gets 12 ahold of this gun. I pulled it a third time, it 13 goes off. When it went off, it shot through my door 14 panel and my window was down and glass flew out of 15 my door panel. I think that kind of startled him 16 and me at the same time. 17 When I see the glass come up, it 18 comes, a chunk about that big comes across my right 19 hand and then I notice I have blood on the back of 20 my hand. 21 After seeing the blood on my hand, I 22 looked at him and he was, this is my car door, he 23 was here and he kind of stepped back and went like 24 this. 25 And then after he did that, he looked Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 225 i 1 up at me and had the most intense aggressive face. i 2 The only way I can describe it, it looks like a 3 demon, that's how angry he looked. He comes back 4 towards me again with his hands up. 5 At that point I just went like this, 6 I tried to pull the trigger again, click, nothing 7 happened. 8 When you say he came back up to you with 9 his hands up, describe to us what he is doing? 10 A Last thing I saw was this coming at me. ll Was it a fist? 12 A I just saw his hands up, I don't know if 13 they were closed yet, on the way to going closed, I 14 saw this and that face coming at me again, and I 15 just went like this and I shielded my face. 16 And you did what? 17 A Went like this and shielded my facethat time? 19 A Yes. 20 Okay. Go ahead. 21 A So I pulled the trigger, it just clicks 22 that time. Without even looking, I just grab the 23 top of my gun, the slide and I racked it, and I put 24 my, still not looking just holding my hand up, I 25 pulled the trigger again, it goes off. When I look Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 226 i I back after that i 2 So how many times does it go off in the 3 car? 4 A It went off twice in the car. Pull, 5 click, click, went off, click, went off. So twice 6 in the car. 7 Are you certain? 8 A Yes. 9 Okay. 10 A When I look up after that, I see him start cloud of dust behind him. I then 12 get out of my car. As I'm getting out of the car I 13 tell dispatch, "shots fired, send me more cars." 14 We start running, kind of the same 15 direction that Johnson had pointed. Across the 16 street like a diagonal towards this, kind of like 17 where the parking lot came in for Copper Creek Court 18 and Canfield, right at that intersection. And there 19 is a light pole right there, I remember him running 20 towards the light pole. 2l We pass two cars that were behind my 22 police car while we were running. I think the 23 second one was Pontiac Grand Am, a green one. I 24 don't know if it was a two door or four door, I just 25 remember seeing a Pontiac green Grand Am. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 227 1 When I passed the second one, about 2 that same time he stopped running and he is at that 3 light pole. So when he stopped, I stopped. And 4 then he starts to turn around, I tell him to get on 5 the ground, get on the ground. 6 He turns, and when he looked at me, 7 he made like a grunting, like aggravated sound and 8 he starts, he turns and he's coming back towards me. 9 His first step is coming towards me, he kind of does 10 like a stutter step to start running. When he does ll that, his left hand goes in a fist and goes to his l2 side, his right one goes under his shirt in his 13 waistband and he starts running at me. 14 You say under his shirt? 15 A Yes. 16 Was he wearing a shirt that was longer 17 than his waistband? 18 A Yes, ma'am. 19 So he goes up under the shirt? 20 A Yes. 2l Okay. Go ahead. 22 A That was all done, like I said, the first 23 step, his first stride coming back towards me. 24 As he is coming towards me, I tell, 25 keep telling him to get on the ground, he doesn't. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 228 1 I shoot a series of shots. I don't know how many I 2 shot, I just know I shot it. 3 I know I missed a couple, I don't 4 know how many, but I know I hit him at least once 5 because I saw his body kind of jerk or flenched. 6 I remember having tunnel vision on 7 his right hand, that's all, I'm just focusing on 8 that hand when I was shooting. 9 Well, after the last shot my tunnel 10 vision kind of opened up. I remember seeing the ll smoke from the gun and I kind of looked at him and 12 he's still coming at me, he hadn't slowed down. 13 At this point I start backpedaling l4 and again, I tell him get on the ground, get on the 15 ground, he doesn't. I shoot another round of shots. 16 Again, I don't recall how many him every time. I know at least once because he 18 flinched again. 19 At this point it looked like he was 20 almost bulking up to run through the shots, like it 2l was making him mad that I'm shooting at him. 22 And the face that he had was looking 23 straight through me, like I wasn't even there, I 24 wasn't even anything in his way. 25 Well, he keeps coming at me after Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 229 i that again, during the pause I tell him to get on a the ground, get on the ground, he still keeps coming LUMP at me, gets about 8 to 10 feet away. At this point I'm backing up pretty rapidly, I'm backpedaling pretty good because I know if he reaches me, he'll kill me. And he had started to lean forward as he got that close, like he was going to just tackle 9 me, just go right through me. 10 Can you demonstrate for us how he was 11 leaning forward? 12 A His hand was in a fist at his side, this 13 one is in his waistband under his shirt, and he was 14 like this. Just coming straight at me like he was 15 going to run right through me. And when he gets 16 about that 8 to 10 feet away, I look down, I 17 remember looking at my sites and firing, all I see 18 is his head and that's what I shot. 19 I don't know how many, I know at 20 least once because I saw the last one go into him. 21 And then when it went into him, the demeanor on his 22 face went blank, the aggression was gone, it was 23 gone, I mean, I knew he stopped, the threat was 24 stopped. 25 When he fell, he fell on his face. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 230 1 And I remember his feet coming up, like he had so 2 much momentum carrying him forward that when he 3 fell, his feet kind of came up a little bit and then 4 they rested. 5 At that point I got back on the radio 6 and said, "send me a supervisor and every car you 7 got." 8 Okay. So when the shots were first fired 9 in your car, you said you believe you fired two 10 shots in the car? 11 A Yes, two actually went off in the car. 12 Two went off in the car. And at this 13 point, the second shot, is that when he ran? 14 A After the second shot, yes. 15 After the second shot. Are you still in 16 the car? 17 A When he starts to run? 18 Yes. 19 A Yes, ma'am. 20 Okay. Do you, at that time, do you say 21 shots fired? 22 A As I'm exiting the car to chase him, yes. 23 Did you know that radio dispatch did not 25 A No, I didn't find out until later while I Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 231 1 was actually driving back to the station that my 2 portable radio was on channel 3 and our main channel 3 was channel 1. 4 So nobody heard you say shots fired to 5 your knowledge? 6 A To my knowledge. 7 Okay. 8 A They did ask me why my radio for the car 9 was laying on the floorboard, asked me if I used 10 that. I don't remember using that radio. I, for 11 some reason, remember using this one. It could have 12 been sitting in my lap, there is also that chance 13 that I used that one. I don't know which one that 14 used. 15 MS. ALTZADEH: I'm sorry, when you say 16 your radio, you mean the mike 17 A The mike, yes, ma'am. 18 MS. ALTZADEH: for the radio? The 19 radio is attached to the dash, correct? 20 A Yes, it is in the center console. So the 21 mike was probably in my lap at some point. 22 MS. ALTZADEH: The mike, okay. 23 (By Ms. Whirley) All right. So you're in 24 the car, you fire two shots and he's running and you chase after him and tell us Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 232 1 your rationale, what you are thinking now? 2 A When I'm chasing him? 3 Yes. You get out of the car and run after 4 him. 5 A My main goal was to keep eyes on him and 6 just to keep him contained until I had people coming 7 there. I knew I had already called for backup and I 8 knew they were already in the area for the stealing 9 that was originally reported. So I thought if I can 10 buy 30 seconds of time, that was my original goal II when I tried to get him to come to the car. If I 12 could buy 30 seconds of time, someone else will be 13 here, we can make the arrest, nothing happens, we 14 are all good. And it didn't happen that way. 15 So when he ran, you know, just stay 16 with him, someone is going to be here, you know, 17 we'll get him. 18 And when you, when the second shot was 19 fired inside the car, did you think he was hit at 20 all? 21 A No, I thought I missed. 22 Both shots. You didn't see any blood on 23 him? 24 A The first shot, judging by his reaction, 25 he went back, I thought it went through the door and Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 233 1 hit him in the leg, in the hip, is what I thought. 2 Okay. 3 A The second one I saw the cloud of dust and 4 him running, I knew I missed. 5 Okay. So you got out of the car, you are 6 running, you are telling him to stop; is that right? 7 A Correct. 8 And he's not listening? 9 A No, not until he gets to that light pole 10 and that's when he stopped. ll To what now? 12 A He gets to that light pole at that 13 intersection. 14 Are you firing at him while he's running? 15 A No, ma'am. 16 Is Dorian Johnson anywhere around? 17 A I never saw him after the very beginning. 18 Once he walked past my car, I never saw him again. 19 Okay. All right. And at some point you 20 say Michael Brown does turn around? 21 A Yes, ma'am. 22 Any idea what happened to make him turn 23 around or he just all of the sudden turns around? 24 A No, just turns around. His whole reaction 25 to the whole thing was something I've never seen. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 234 1 I've never seen that much aggression so quickly from 2 a simple request to just walk on the sidewalk. 3 Okay. Because you never did talk to him 4 about the Cigarillos or the stealing at the Ferguson 5 Market? 6 A No, I never had the chance to. 7 All right. You said when he's coming back 8 at you with his hand, right hand in his waistband 9 and kind of charging, that's when you fired the last 10 shots? ll A Yes, ma'am. 12 And he went down? 13 A Yes, ma'am. 14 Did you think he was dead at that point? 15 A Yes, I did. 16 What did you do after that when he goes 17 down? 18 A After that is when I got back on the radio 19 and I said, "send me a supervisor and every car you 20 have." 2l Seconds later, I don't know how many 22 seconds later, is when Officer followed by 23 Officer arrived. And I believe they were the 24 ones that were assigned to the stealing call 25 originally. walked up to me and said, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 235 i Darren, what do you need. i 2 MS. ALIZADEH: Said What? 3 A Darren, what do you need. I don't 4 remember what my reply was and he said, did you call 5 for an ambulance. I said I haven't, will you. I 6 remember him calling twice, like he was about from 7 me to you away on the radio calling. 8 And then I look across and was 9 starting to tape off the area, but I notice that all 10 of our cars are parked this way, Brown is laying ll here, there is nothing on this side. I told 12 to move his car to this side to block that side of 13 the street off. He did that and then he resumed l4 taping. 15 After that I walked start walking away from the scene. 17 As I'm walking away, I walk back to my car and I 18 don't know if the door was open or shut, I think it 19 was shut. I open the door, I reach in, I turn my 20 car off, shut the door. At that time my sergeant 2l pulled up and I walked over to him. 22 (By Ms. Whirley) This is Sergeant 23 A Yes, ma'am. 24 Okay. 25 A I don't remember what started the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 236 i 1 conversation, he said something first, but I said I i 2 have to tell you what happened. And he goes, what 3 happened. 4 I said, I had to kill him. 5 He goes, you what? 6 I said, he grabbed my gun, I shot 7 him, I killed him. 8 He goes, go sit in the car. 9 I said, I cannot sit in the car. 10 I remember him saying, Darren, sit in 11 the car. 12 I said, Sarge, I can't be singled 13 out. It is already getting hostile, I can't be 14 singled out in the car. I will leave if you want me 15 to leave. 16 He said, take my car and leavedrove to the police station. 18 In your mind him grabbing the gun is what 19 made the difference where you felt you had to use a 20 weapon to stop him? 21 A Yes. Once he was hitting me in the face, 22 that enough, was in my mind to authorize the use of 23 force. 24 Okay. So if he would not have grabbed 25 your gun while he was hitting you in the face, Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 237 1 everything was the same, but he would not have 2 grabbed the gun, you still would have used deadly 3 force? 4 A My gun was already being presented as a 5 deadly force option while he was hitting me in the 6 face. 7 Okay, all right. So then you go to the 8 station? 9 A Yes. 10 And what happens, you go alone? 11 A Yes. 12 And before you leave for the station, 13 there is a crowd developing, right? 14 A Correct. 15 And do you hear what the crowd is saying? 16 I know you are in a pretty stressful situation, but 17 do you understand or hearing anything that they're 18 saying? 19 A I hear yelling, I hear screaming, as I'm 20 walking back to my car, a white Ford truck pulled up 21 and I remember her saying is that female driver that got out. said, ma'am, 23 we don't know. I heard her say, I think it is so 24 and so, and then she screamed and that's all I 25 heard. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 238 I could hear other noises and 2 screaming, but I couldn't hear. 3 Okay. We're going to go with you to the 4 station in just a minute, but I wanted to ask you 5 about your relationship with the residents in the 6 Canfield Green Apartments. 7 A Uh?huh. 8 Did you guys have a volatile, well, how 9 can I put this. Did you not really get along well 10 with the folks that lived in that apartment, not you ll personally, I mean the police in general? 12 A It is an antipolice area for sure. l3 And when you say antipolice, tell me more? 14 A There's a lot of gangs that reside or 15 associate with that area. There's a lot of violence 16 in that area, there's a lot of gun activity, drug 17 activity, it is just not a very well?liked 18 community. That community doesn't like the police. 19 Were you pretty much on high alert being 20 in that community by yourself, especially when 2l Michael Brown said, "fuck what you say," I think he 22 said? 23 A Yes. 24 You were on pretty high alert at that 25 point knowing the vicinity and the area that you're Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 239 i 1 in? i 2 A Yes, that's not an area where you can take 3 anything really Like I said, it is a 4 hostile environment. There are good people over 5 there, there really are, but I mean there is an 6 influx of gang activity in that area. 7 All right. So you're driving yourself 8 back to Ferguson, what are you thinking on the drive 9 back to Ferguson? 10 A I think I'm just kind of in shock of what ll just happened, I really didn't believe it because 12 like I said, the whole thing started over will you 13 just walk on the sidewalk and it developed into that 14 in 45 seconds. l5 And that's the only other thing I 16 remember thinking about is I heard the car radio 17 going off and mine wasn't. That doesn't make sense. 18 So I hit the scan button on mine thinking the scan 19 button got messed up, I wasn't getting everything. 20 And I did that and it still, this one 21 is going off and mine's not. So then I looked channel 3. I was like, I don't know 23 what was heard or what wasn't heard. 24 And that's when you realized that you 25 probably, nobody probably even heard your call for Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 240 1 help? 2 A Right. I know they heard the initial one 3 because before I put it in reverse I used the car 4 radio, the car mike, which is always on Ferguson 5 channel, it never changes, but I don't know when 6 this one was changed, if they even heard anything. 7 When you first went out on your call to 8 Canfield Green, you said, I'm going out Frank 21? 9 A Frank 2l. 10 I'm going out with two, send me a car? ll A I said, "Frank 21, I'm on Canfield with 12 two, send me another car." 13 It wasn't a stressful situation at that 14 point? 15 A No, it wasn't, but I just had that gut 16 feeling that someone else needed to be there and 17 knowing that this guy just stole from the market l8 because I saw the Cigarillos and had the black 19 shirt, I felt that in order to affect the arrest, it 20 would be better to have. 21 You asked for this other car before any 22 words were exchanged, correct? 23 A No, he had already told me, "fuck what you 24 have to say." 25 Before you asked for the car, when you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 241 1 said I'm Frank 21, I'm at Canfield Green, send me a 2 car. He had already said, "fuck what you have to 3 say?" 4 A Yeah, he had already walked past by my car 5 and said that. 6 Okay. 7 A That's when I saw the Cigarillos when he 8 said that and he kept walking. Then I got on the 9 radio and said, "send me another car." 10 You didn't tell the dispatcher that you ll were having a confrontation or that you had these 12 guys who might be the suspects in the stealing? 13 A No. 14 You didn't say that to the dispatcher when 15 you said send me a car? 16 A No, it was kind of said in a quicker way, 17 just kind of hey, I want to get the information out, 18 get a car started and once more develops, I can 19 advise them of more. 20 But you never had a chance to do that? 21 A No, I didn't. 22 Okay. All right. So you drive back to 23 Ferguson by yourself, you are at Ferguson, what immediately go to the bathroom. On the Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 242 way back I found that I had blood on the inside of my left hand and I already know I had it on the back LUMP of my right hand. And just from everything we have always been taught about blood, you don't want it on you, you don't touch it, you don't come in contact with it. And my original thought was that it oosuoxo?l was the glass had cut my wrist and cut my hand, 9 which is why this hand was bleeding. And so 10 thinking that I was cut with someone else's blood on ll me, I had to wash my hands. 12 So I go directly to the bathroom. I 13 actually washed them, went to the bathroom and then 14 I looked, like I still had it like in my cuticles 15 and stuff, so I washed my hands again. After I 16 washed my hands, I go to our roll call room. 17 Let me ask you this, was there a lot of 18 blood? 19 A From like my finger tips to about here was 20 blood. 2l Like dripping blood? 22 A No, just on the back of my hand, it wasn't 23 liked wraparound like I dipped my hand in blood, but 24 there was like blood on the back of my hand. 25 One of the grand jurors asked earlier, you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 243 may know the answer to the question, was there blood left like in Sergeant car after you got out LUMP of it? A I don't know, I did call him and say, I don't know who is going to drive your car later, but I had blood on my hands. You might want to tell them to wipe down the steering wheel or just be cautious of it because I never went back and looked 9 at the car. 10 I see. Okay, so go ahead, after you wash ll your hands? 12 A I then go down the hallway to the roll 13 call room. Once in there, Officer was in 14 there working on the computer. 15 Which officer, 16 A 17 Do you need that spelled? Spell that, 18 please? 19 A 20 And that's a officer? 2l A Yes. 22 And that's a friend of yours? 23 A Yeah, 24 Okay. So there at 25 the station? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 244 1 A Yes. 2 Okay. Go ahead. 3 A I come in, looks at me said, you 4 know, what happened. And I said, I just had to 5 shoot somebody. 6 And was kind of in shock and 7 had had, the computer was working on in front of 8 the one next to had, what we call the 9 CADament screen, it just shows the status of all the 10 cars where they're at. Well, on that one it is 11 showing all the Ferguson cars out on Canfield. 12 goes, I was really hoping you 13 weren't involved in that, you know, because any time 14 every car is involved, you really don't know what is 15 going to happen, who is going to get hurt. 16 What was doing, 17 what was duty that day? 18 A was working for court, was doing 19 paperwork, entering warrants for them. 20 So wasn't working the radio or 21 dispatch or anything like that? 22 A No. 23 And didn't know what had happened? 24 A No. 25 just knew a lot of cars were going Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 245 i 1 there? i 2 A just saw the cars, didn't even 3 know what the call was. I think they had it as a 4 disturbance, so didn't even know what it was. 5 Okay. 6 A I go in there, I asked to go get me a 7 pair of gloves. goes gets me a pair of gloves, 8 comes back, put the gloves on. I grab an 9 evidence envelope, take my gun out of the holster, 10 make it safe. I lock the slide back, take the 11 magazine out, take the one round that's left in it 12 out. I put it all in that bag, seal it with 13 evidence tape and then sign it. 14 And you handled your gun at that time with 15 gloves on? 16 A Correctthat? 18 A To preserve any evidence on there, I knew 19 his DNA was on that gun. 20 How did you know his DNA was on the gun? 21 A When I first took it out, without even 22 looking at it, I knew that he had fingerprints on it 23 and possibly even sweat from, it was warmer that day 24 so, and he could have sweat on it. When I took it 25 out, I also saw blood on it. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 246 i 1 You saw blood? i 2 A Yes. 3 And that could have been from when you 4 shot him? 5 A Yes. 6 Okay. Is it procedure for you to make 7 your gun safe in a shooting like this or should 8 someone else do that? 9 A I don't really know. 10 Because that never happened to you before? ll A Correct. 12 And you never investigated this type of 13 crime? 14 A No, I have not. 15 Not crime, but situation before? 16 A Correct. 17 Okay. All right. So you made, but you 18 knew how to make the gun safe and put it in an 19 evidence envelope based on your training and 20 experience? 21 A Yes, I was just trying to preserve all the 22 evidence I could on the weapon. And I knew evidence envelope and sealed it, that it 24 would have no other contact with anybody and it 25 could be as preserved as you could get. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 247 1 Okay. All right. And then what? 2 A I sat down and called for my attorney, who 3 represents police for the union. He said he would 4 be on his way. 5 Officer came in, he gave me the 6 card for the application for the Fraternal Order of 7 Police. I said, I already called them. 8 He said, would you like to tell me 9 what happened so I can tell the media? I said, no, 10 I don't want to talk right now. 11 Lieutenant came in, he's 12 actually my lieutenant who was off that day. He 13 came in and said, has anybody told you what's l4 happening? I said, I don't really know anything 15 that's going on there. I left the scene pretty much 16 right after. 17 He said St. Louis County is 18 investigating. I said okay, and then he left. 19 And then right after he left, 20 Ferguson Fire Department and EMS from Christian 21 Northeast Hospital showed up. They stayed about 22 this far away, they didn't actually come in the 23 room. 24 And they asked what happened? 25 I said, I was hit in the face Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 248 1 multiple times. 2 They asked where? 3 I pointed this side, that side. 4 They asked if I lost consciousness? 5 I said, no. 6 My vision was blurry? 7 I said, no. 8 Asked if I needed to go to the 9 hospital? 10 I said, no, not right now. ll So is there anything else we can do 12 for you? 13 I said, no, not right now, and then 14 they left. l5 About 20 minutes later is when 16 my attorney, showed up and we talked for about 10 or l7 15 minutes. l8 My assistant chief showed up, he came 19 in and he made the determination that we should go 20 to the hospital, he could see the swelling on my 2l face. 22 So he drove, before we left, 23 Detective from St. Louis County arrived, 24 informed us he would be investigating the case and 25 kind of gave us the rundown of what to expect. And Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 249 i 1 then he agrees with going to the hospital. a 2 So my assistant chief drove me and 3 to the hospital and Detective followed. 4 Okay. And those photos that we looked at 5 a minute ago were you at the hospital, correct? 6 A Yes, ma'am. 7 And then what happened after that? 8 A At the hospital we did the interview. And 9 when I went to the hospital, I didn't wear my 10 uniform shirt, I took that off and my vest off, left ll it at the station, left my duty belt at the station. 12 Did someone tell you to do that? 13 A Yeah, and I felt more comfortable too 14 because I obviously can't wear my gun, and I don't 15 want to be in uniform after all of this without it. 16 So I took the shirt off, just my 17 undershirt, my pants, my boots, go to the hospital. 18 While waiting to be treated in the waiting room, not 19 in the waiting room, in the actual hospital room, 20 Detective began his interview and then stopped 2l as needed for nurses, whoever came in. They took 22 x?rays, prescribed me a painkiller for the face 23 injuries. 24 St. Louis County's evidence 25 technician arrived, he photographed everything. I Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 250 don't know who it is, but he came from whoever the department uses for drug tests, they gave me the LUMP drug tests. And then after that, I think he left and then the assistant chief drove me and back to the station. He had already made a phone call, the assistant chief did to have Officer get a change of clothes for me, so 9 they were going to take my clothes. They had blood 10 on my left hip area. ll So when I get back I change, St. 12 Louis County took my pants, shirt, they already had 13 my weapon, and then that was it, I went home for the 14 day. 15 Okay. You have been on administrative 16 leave since then? 17 A Correct. 18 Okay. In your, well, first of all, you 19 have been a police officer for how long? 20 A Five years. 2l Five years. You started out with 22 Jennings? 23 A Correct. 24 Why did you leave Jennings? 25 A Whenever Jennings was disbanded, I wasn't Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 251 1 officered a position by St. Louis County. 2 Did you apply for a position? 3 A Yes, I did. I just wasn't one of the ones 4 selected. 5 All right. So you went to Ferguson? 6 A Correct. 7 Those are the only two departments you 8 have been? 9 A I actually worked for Pine Lawn for about 10 eight hours. ll Eight hours? 12 A Yes. 13 Okay. Did you leave voluntarily? 14 A Yes, I did. 15 After eight hours? 16 A Yes. 17 Any other incidents where you have been 18 involved where you had to use excessive force? 19 A I've never used my weapon before. 20 Not excessive force, where you have had to 21 use force to affect an arrest? 22 A I've used my asp before, I have used my 23 flashlight before and I have used OC spray before. 24 Okay. And in those incidents though, no 25 one was injured? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 252 1 A No. 2 Okay. All right. 3 MS. WHIRLEY: Anyone else have questions? 4 I have a few more, but if you have something. 5 Yes, 6 I just, hopeful 7 you don't take any offense, I just have a question. 8 You worked for Pine Lawn for eight hours, Jennings, 9 you worked for Ferguson? 10 A Correct. ll Have you always worked in 12 predominantly African?American neighborhoods? 13 A Yes, I have. 14 You have. 15 A Yes. 16 No problem until this 17 time? 18 A Correct. 19 Okay. 2O . I want to 2l go back to when Sergeant arrived there. You 22 told him that you had to kill him. Was that the 23 extent of your conversation or did you tell him sort 24 of like you are telling us play by play what 25 happened? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 253 1 A No, it was very brief and he was more 2 focused with the scene than he was, I guess, with me 3 at the moment because like I said, the crowd, it was 4 not a good area. He had made, I had made those 5 comments to him and his reaction was go sit down. 6 If you would go 7 back to the contact in the car, after you had put it 8 in reverse and reengaged to have a conversation, and 9 Michael Brown reached into the car with his right 10 hand and you said at a certain point that you looked ll in the mirror to see Dorian Johnson because that's 12 how you recognized him with his black shirt? 13 A I did that before the car was placed in 14 reverse. 15 Oh, before, okay. 16 A Yes. 17 Go over that again with 18 me, which mirror were you looking at? 19 A My driver's side mirror on the outside of 20 the car. 21 Okay. 22 A Whenever they walked me and I saw the 23 Cigarillos. I'd already saw that Dorian Johnson had 24 on a black shirt, but just to double?check myself to 25 match up with what I heard Cigarillos had been Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 254 stolen and a suspect wearing a black shirt, I looked 2 to make sure the shirt was black. 3 Okay. 4 A And then I called out for the assist car 5 and then placed it in reverse and backed up to him. 6 Thank you. 7 A You're welcome. 8 MS. ALIZADEH: Officer Wilson, I have a 9 few questions. 10 (By Ms. Alizadeh) Prior to today, at any ll time after this incident have you seen any reports 12 of any kind, medical examiner's reports, police 13 reports, hospital reports, anything of that nature? 14 A The only report I've seen was the one 15 released on the news about the initial stealing. 16 Okay. So that is the Ferguson report that 17 was filed in relation to the theft of the 18 Cigarillos? 19 A Correct. 20 And when you, the vehicle that you were 2l in, I'm guessing that is not equipped with any 22 cameras or mikes? 23 A No, it is not. 24 To record what was going on, correct? 25 A Correct. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 255 i Any of the Ferguson officer's vehicles a 2 equipped with that type of equipment? 3 A No, ma'am. 4 You don't wear a body mike? 5 A No, ma'am. 6 Now, your duty holster that you've 7 described or your duty belt has the holster attached 8 to it, correct? 9 A Correct. 10 Is it the type of holster that there's a ll snap that goes over the gun that you have to unsnap 12 before the gun is removed from the holster? 13 A No, it doesn't have the strap on the top, 14 there is a button on the outside of it that you push 15 as you are pulling up and it releases it. 16 Okay. And is that something that, I mean, 17 as a police officer, you have to train at the firing 18 range, is that fair to say? 19 A Yes, ma'am. 20 And is part of your training learning how 2l to quickly get your gun out of your holster? 22 A Yes, ma'am. 23 When you called in and said you had two on 24 Canfield or two out, I think you said? 25 A I said, "Frank 2l, I'm on Canfield with Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 256 3 two, send me another car." i With two. And why didn't you say anything LUMP about asking again, what was that description of the two involved in the larceny, did you ask for any other details to insure in your own mind that maybe these, you know, were these the guys? A No, because my initial focus was just to oosuoxo?l get the information out that was there. Have the 9 other car respond and then get to that. My whole 10 goal was to just stall until someone got there. ll Well, you've made previous statements 12 about that, this incident, and one being initially 13 to Sergeant 14 A Uh-huh. 15 Would you say that was kind of a brief, 16 not a lot of detail statement, would that be fair to 17 say? 18 A The one on scene? 19 On scene. 20 A Yeah, it was very brief. 2l And then you talked to 22 Detective 23 A Correct. 24 At the hospital. And that was a little 25 more detailed, would that be fair to say? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 257 A Yes. 2 You didn't say anything to 3 about the Cigarillos, did you? 4 A Yes. 5 You believe you did? 6 A Yes, ma'am. 7 Did you tell that when you 8 saw him with his left hand reaching back and he made 9 the statement here, hold these or whatever, that you 10 saw what was in his hand? ll A I had saw the flash of them going back 12 behind him. 13 So you didn't see at that point what was 14 in his hand? 15 A I could see the red and white wrapper of a 16 Cigarillo in his hand. 17 Okay. Just so I can be sure I'm 18 understanding you, did you see that they were 19 Cigarillos or did you assume they were Cigarillos? 20 A I assumed they were Cigarillos at that 2l point. I saw that they were in his right hand 22 before the contact was made. 23 But you didn't notice as his hand, his 24 right hand comes in the vehicle, and initially 25 contacts your face, you don't notice that he has Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 258 1 these packages or package with red and white 2 wrappers, you don't see them as he is hitting you? 3 A No, because I had shielded myself and I 4 believe I even closed my eyes. 5 Did you ever grab ahold, you said that you 6 grabbed ahold of his right hand at some point? 7 A It was like his forearm, it was this area. 8 (indicating) 9 His right forearm? 10 A Yes, ma'am. ll And what were you doing when you grabbed l2 ahold of his right forearm? 13 A Trying to move him and somewhat control 14 him so I could get out of the car. l5 Were you ever pulling him to try to pull 16 him into the vehicle? 17 A No, I was trying to open my car door with 18 my left hand and then hold onto him as I did so. 19 So you've got your left hand, or what's 20 holding his right hand? 2l A My right hand. 22 You are like this? (indicating) 23 A Yes. 24 And you are like this trying to open your 25 door? (indicating) Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 259 i A Yes. i 2 And this is before you've gone for your 3 gun? 4 A Yes. 5 The first shot you've described pretty, I 6 guess, in detail. I think I understand the first 7 shot. The second shot you said you kind of weren't 8 looking, I guess? 9 A Uh?huh. 10 Where was your gun pointed? ll A His general direction. 12 Was your gun above the level of the door 13 frame? 14 A I would say, yes. It had come upleg any more and my leg sits only that far 16 away from the top of the window. So I remember 17 doing it like this, having my gun up. 18 And you said you saw a little puff of dust 19 or dirt that you assume was where a projectile might 20 have landed in the dirt; is that correct? 2l A Yes, ma'am. 22 So your gun wasn't pointed like up in the 23 air, would that be fair to say? 24 A Not that I'm aware of, correct. Was your gun, if you had rolled up your Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 260 1 window, let's just say, was your gun totally inside 2 the vehicle, partially out of the vehicle, or was 3 your hand extended so that the gun was totally 4 outside of your vehicle? 5 A I don't know for sure, but it was my right 6 hand with it and was like this. So I don't know 7 where it could have gone. 8 And I was using my left hand, I guess, to 9 demonstrate, you are right handed? 10 A Yes, ma'am. ll And so you were across your body? 12 A Yes, ma'am. 13 And you said you had turned your face 14 somewhat? 15 A Yes, ma'am. 16 And at that point Michael Brown is not 17 right up on the vehicle, is that fair to say? 18 A No, this is when he is coming back at the 19 vehicle. He is only about a foot away and then 20 after the first shot hit him, he went down and kind 2l of held his hip for a second and then he came back 22 up and started to come back in the vehicle. And 23 that's when I just went like this and I pulled the 24 trigger. 25 Did you give him any kind of warning Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 261 1 before that second shot? 2 A I don't recall. 3 (By Ms. Whirley) You said you knew the 4 area and you felt threatened in that area because 5 there is violence and guns and everything, and that 6 Michael Brown was being confrontational before the 7 first blow, correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Is there any reason why you didn't wait in 10 the car until your backup came? ll A I thought I would be able to just stall 12 until someone got there. I thought the car, I could maintain the distance that I 14 need to maintain, they were close. I figure all I 15 needed was 20 or 30 seconds and someone is going to 16 be there. 17 Right. So why wouldn't you stay in the 18 car? 19 A Because I had already been, my comfort 20 zone is not to be sitting in the car talking to 21 someone else. I wanted to be out of the car, that 22 way if I need to run I can run. 23 You can runstarted like chasing 25 me or went to hit me, I could move. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 262 1 You are in a car, you are more mobile in a 2 car than you are on foot, right? 3 A Right. But I also didn't want him to run 4 away, so I need to kind of stay where I can keep him 5 there, keep myself safe and wait for someone to get 6 there. 7 MS. WHIRLEY: Okay. 8 (By Ms. Alizadeh) Now, Officer Wilson, I'm 9 not trying get in your head, I mean, I guess we all 10 are trying to get in your head at some point to know ll what you were thinking at the time, but, I mean, 12 your initial confrontation or your initial contact 13 with them, I mean, you didn't see any of them with 14 weapons, correct? 15 A No. 16 And they weren't subjects that you knew to 17 be armed and dangerous? 18 A No. 19 And you stop and encounter pedestrians 2O probably almost on a daily basis when you are on 2l patrol, would that be fair to say? 22 A Yesthat point have any 24 reason to anticipate that this, that Michael Brown, 25 the Michael Brown subject was going to provoke or Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 263 be, or assault you? 2 A No, not at that moment, no. 3 You described the first shot, was his 4 right hand on the gun when the shot went off? 5 A I believe so. 6 And then the second shot, was his body in 7 contact with you on the second shot? 8 A Probably not on the second one. I know 9 when I first pulled the trigger it was, but it 10 didn't shoot and then that's when I racked the gun ll and then shot again. 12 And you used both hands, you had to use 13 both hands to rack the gun? 14 A Yes, ma'am. 15 Was he still trying to hit you when you 16 went to rack the gun? 17 A I didn't look up. 18 Okay. So you said you did that without 19 looking and then you just went like that? 20 A Yes. 2l Turned your face away and shot out the 22 window? 23 A Yes. 24 In his general direction? 25 A Yes. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 264 1 And so you can't really say whether his 2 hands were inside the car or outside the car at the 3 time you actually fired the second time, the second 4 shot? 5 A No, I can't tell you. 6 The blood on your pants, do you know how 7 the blood got on your pants? 8 A No, I do not. 9 Do you recall, I mean, when you were done 10 and you notice that you have, you said you had blood ll on your left palm? 12 A Uh?huh. 13 And on the back of your right hand? 14 A Uh-huh. 15 Did you wipe your palm on your pant leg 16 because it is on your left pant leg, correct? 17 A Correct. 18 Did you wipe your hand on your pant leg to 19 get the blood off your palm? 20 A Not that I remember. I didn't see the 2l blood on my palm until I was driving back to the 22 station. 23 Okay. So you don't recall if you wiped 24 the blood on your pants? 25 A No, I don't know. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 265 i 1 And when you, at any time after you got a 2 back at the station, you went to the bathroom, was 3 there a mirror in the bathroom? 4 A Yes. 5 Could you see any blood on your face? 6 A No, I don't remember seeing any on my 7 face. 8 I would imagine that at some point in your 9 training you have learned something about blood 10 spatter and blood spray and so forth; is that right? ll A It is kind of common knowledge, but no 12 official training on how it works. 13 I know you are not an expert, but you know 14 that can happen when you are in close range when 15 someone is shot, correct? 16 A Yes. 17 That spray or spatter can get on you? 18 A Yes. 19 Did you ever see anything like that? 20 Obviously, we have seized your clothing and what's 21 on there is what's on there, but did you have any of 22 that on your face or on your forearms or anything 23 like that? 24 A I don't recall seeing it on my face. I 25 remember looking, I don't remember washing my face. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 266 i I would say no, it was not on my face. When I i 2 washed my hands, I did wash up like halfway up my 3 forearm just to make sure nothing was on me. I seen 4 it on my hands and I just started washing. 5 You didn't wash your face then prior to 6 going to the hospital? 7 A No. 8 Did anyone that you recall ever swab your 9 face? 10 A The outside of my face? ll Yes. 12 A Not that I no. 13 Did anyone swab the back of your hands? 14 A No. 15 MS. ALIZADEH: I don't have anything else. 16 When 17 Michael Brown, I guess, I guess at the point where I 18 want to say it was the second shot, I know this is 19 kind of after the fact. You said he stepped back a 20 little bit and then he came back in on you? 2l A That was after the first shot. 22 After the first shot? 23 A Yes. 24 Did you ever think about, 25 I know you said your vehicle was running, did you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 267 1 ever just think about getting in that bad boy and 2 drive? 3 A No, I didn't. My thought is, was still 4 dealing with a threat at my car. You know, we're 5 trained not to run away from a threat, to deal with 6 a threat and that is what I was doing. That never 7 entered my mind to flee. 8 Did you ever or 9 do you recall grabbing Michael Brown by the throat? 10 A Never touched his throat. ll Shoulder? 12 A No. Only part of him I touched was his 13 right forearm. l4 . When 15 Michael Brown was running from you, after the shots 16 were fired within the car and they both just 17 disappeared and you had Michael in focus, did you 18 ever at any time fire with his back facing you? 19 A No, I did not. 20 When you asked him to 2l halt, and he turned around and he, you know, stopped 22 running, at any point did you ever think that okay, 23 maybe he don't have a gun, I need to stop shooting? 24 A When he was running towards me? 25 Throughout the whole Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 268 process. You're in the car and someone, you're 2 struggling, tugging back and forth, did you ever 3 think that he had a gun right then and there, he 4 could have used it at any time? 5 A I wasn't thinking about that at that time. 6 was thinking about defending myself whenever he 7 was hitting me in the car. 8 MS. ALIZADEH: 9 . So kind of going 10 go on that as well. So the comment that you made to ll your supervisor Sergeant when he got there at 12 the scene was that he went for my gun, I had to 13 shoot him. I think that kind of goes along with 14 that. Because I think when I hear someone say he 15 went for my gun, if I literally take that comment, 16 would assume that someone literally went to your 17 holster and tried to pull it out. Either l8 unholstering it or literally taking it from you. 19 And in this instance that was not the 20 case. You had already unholstered and you were 2l aiming at him. He essentially in his, your point of 22 view and the point of view of who we can no longer 23 obtain that, he deflected or pushed it towards youany point try to pull it from your 25 holster is, I guess, my question? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 269 i A He didn't pull it from my holster, but 9 whenever it was visible to him, he then took LUMP complete control of it. MS. ALIZADEH: I can't hear you, sorry. A Whenever, he didn't pull it from my holster, but whenever it was displayed to him, he did take complete control. Because he had twisted it around so my hand was no longer this way, it was 9 bent this way and it was dug into my hip. He had 10 complete control of that weapon at that time. ll Was your hand, I'm sorry, 12 was your hand still on it and finger on the l3 trigger? 14 A Yes, ma'am, or yes, sir. 15 I wouldn't say he had 16 complete control, I would say he had some control. 17 A He was controlling where it went, how it 18 went there and his finger was in the process of 19 going on the trigger with mine. 20 Okay. 2l A I could feel his fingertips on my trigger 22 finger trying to get in the trigger guard. 23 Okay. When I just hear 24 the word complete control, I think it is entirely in 25 his possession and none of yours, that's the way I Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 270 i 1 feel is complete control. i 2 A Okay. 3 MS. ALIZADEH: Anyone else have any other 4 questions? 5 What's 6 the chain of command at the Ferguson Police 7 Department from chief down? 8 A Chief down would be chief, the assistant 9 chief and then we have for the patrol side, I 10 believe, our captain's next, the assistant chief 11 just started a week before this happened. I don't l2 know what was really ironed out between them two. 13 After the captain, it is a lieutenant, sergeant, l4 patrolman. 15 I keep hearing this name, 16 Lieutenant 17 A 18 MS. ALIZADEH: 19 20 A He is the assistant chief, lieutenant 21 colonel. 22 Okay, thank you. 23 A You're welcome. 24 One more question, 25 When you got back to the police Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 271 department, after you washed off and everything, did you ever think at what time that I need to write a LUMP report while it is fresh on my mind? A No. The protocol is whenever you are involved in a significant use of force, that you contact your FOP representative and then he will advise you of what to do step by step because they are the clear head in that situation. They have not 9 been through a traumatic experience. 10 MS. ALIZADEH: And I guess to be fair ll about this, any time any law enforcement officer has 12 asked to speak to you, you have willingly and 13 voluntarily come in and been interviewed and 14 answered all their questions, is that fair to say? 15 A Yes, ma'am. 16 MS. ALIZADEH: And you've never been back 17 working at Ferguson Police Department since this 18 happened, correct? 19 A No, I have not. 20 MS. ALIZADEH: Did you, I mean, for your 2l own sake, did you like write down in a diary what 22 happened, I mean, not a diary or I guess a grown man 23 would call it a journal, but you know, have you ever 24 like, did you afterwards, you know, write this out 25 for your own, you know, therapeutic needs? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 272 A My statement has been written for my 2 attorney. 3 MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. And that's between 4 you and your attorney then? 5 A Correct. 6 MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. 7 A The department has not asked me for 8 anything. 9 MS. ALIZADEH: So no one has asked you to 10 write out a statement. ll A No, they haven't. 12 MS. ALIZADEH: You didn't just on your own 13 decide I want to write this down while it is all 14 fresh in my mind, you didn't do that yourself? 15 A No. 16 MS. ALIZADEH: This happens in the matter 17 of how many minutes or seconds by the time that you l8 saw them walking down the street until Michael Brown 19 is dead in the street? 20 A I would say less than one minute. 2l MS. ALIZADEH: Less than one minute? 22 A Uh?huh. 23 MS. ALIZADEH: Now, you know, I know 24 you've probably thought about this every day since 25 it's happened, would that be fair to say? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 273 1 A Yes. 2 MS. ALIZADEH: Replayed this in your mind 3 over and over again? 4 A Yes. 5 MS. ALIZADEH: And do you think that after 6 having really thought about this over time and 7 basically you've had to tell this scenario a few 8 times, do you think that if there are additional 9 details that you may not give initially, do you 10 think that's because you're just now remembering ll them because you are putting so much thought into 12 what happened or do you think that is things that 13 maybe you kind of imagined happened, but didn't 14 really happen, you understand my question? 15 A Yeah, just from what I have been told 16 about the incident originally, is that you are 17 supposed to have 72 hours before you are actually 18 officially interviewed, recorded statement and all 19 of that. You tend to remember more through a couple 20 sleep cycles then what you do as soon as it happens. 2l It is a traumatic event, a lot of details kind of 22 come as one detail. I mean, from what I understand, 23 there hasn't been really anything significant that's 24 changed. 25 MS. ALIZADEH: So you think that when you Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 274 were testifying today you said you kind of thought, 2 had a thought process. As this chaotic scene is 3 unfolding, do you recall actually in your mind 4 processing this in the way you've described or is it 5 all just reactionary? 6 A No, I remember actually, I picture a use 7 of force triangle in my head when this first 8 happened and I was going through the progression of 9 what I could force continuum 10 is concerned. ll MS. ALIZADEH: That is something you 12 learned in the police academy then? 13 A Yes, ma'am. 14 MS. ALIZADEH: And you recall actually 15 thinking that as this assault is occurring? 16 A Yes. 17 MS. WHIRLEY: At what point did the use of 18 triangle 19 MS. ALIZADEH: Use of force triangle. 20 MS. WHIRLEY: Use of force triangle come 2l into your head, what was going on when you start 22 seeing the triangle? 23 A Whenever I first start considering the 24 spray, the taser. 25 MS. WHIRLEY: What was going on though? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 275 i A That was when I was being hit after the i 2 one to my face. 3 MS. WHIRLEY: So that was before you went 4 for the weapon, or before you struggled over the 5 weapon you started thinking about the use of 6 force 7 A Yes. 8 MS. WHIRLEY: triangle? At any point 9 did Michael Brown raise his hands? lO A No. ll MS. WHIRLEYever think while you were firing that you could have 14 hit another innocent standbyer. (sic) 15 A When I originally fired the first time, 16 when he turned around and I raised my weapon, I 17 remember looking behind him and seeing nothing. I 18 didn't see a car, I didn't see a person, there is 19 nothing behind him. And after the first round of 20 shots, I had tunnel vision on his hand. After that, 2l when I refocused, I still don't remember ever seeing 22 anybody behind him. 23 MS. WHIRLEY: 24 Just a couple 25 questions actually. The first one, we have heard a Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 276 i 1 lot of scenarios and witnesses involved and their a 2 timelines and activity. Anyway, we have heard a 3 little bit about what you did that morning when you 4 were on duty. The day before, typical shift, were 5 you off that day? 6 A On Friday? 7 On August 8th? 8 A I don't remember anything significant. 1 9 did work that day, but I don't remember anything 10 significant. ll You said you did not work 12 that day? 13 A I did work that day. 14 Like 6:30 a.m. to 15 6:30 p.m. shift? 16 A Yes. 17 Get a good night's sleep? 18 A From what I remember, yes. 19 Okay. 6 to 8 hours? 20 A Yes. 2l Felt rested, ready to go 22 the next day. Just had to ask, curious. And then 23 following the actual incident, you are back in your 24 supervisor's car driving back to Ferguson Police 25 Department. How far is that roughly from the crime Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 277 scene, the police department? 2 A Mile and a half, 2 miles. 3 So very short trip? 4 A Yeah. 5 And that was my thought 6 too, but being in communication, 1 think, you know, 7 in that situation, my first thought is to contact a 8 loved one and say, I can't believe what just 9 happened and that was my thought. If there was any 10 sort of communication from that point moving forward ll on a personal cell phone or anything else? 12 A No. l3 So none whatsoever until 14 you saw the officer at the Ferguson Police 15 Department? 16 A Yes. 17 Thank you. 18 . Last 19 question. 20 MS. ALIZADEH: It just left your head. 2l have it. I'm trying to 22 word it. Dorian, did you ever tell the police chief 23 or any of the other officers that there was another 24 person with him, did you ever try to look for 25 Dorian? Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Page 278 1 A No, I haven't talked to the chief or 2 anybody at the department in length about what 3 happened. I told my sergeant what happened at that 4 time, that was the end of our conversations with 5 anybody from the department. 6 This kind 7 of dovetails with her questions about Dorian. I 8 understand that you did an interview August 28th 9 with FBI agent; is that correct? 10 A Yes. ll Okay. At which time, I 12 hope I'm getting this correct, I believe that there 13 was, did they present to you a photo lineup of 14 suspects or whatever? 15 A The Department of Justice did not. 16 The Department of Justice 17 did not, what about the that time. 20 MS. ALIZADEH: I think you might be 2l thinking of the officer, Detective 22 23 Was that whose evidence? 24 MS. ALIZADEH: I believe so. 25 Okay. That would have Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 279 i 1 been on the date of, did they give you a photo 3 2 lineup, Detective 3 A I think it was the 10th, I think is when I 4 did the follow?up interview with 5 both detectives. 6 okay. 7 And that would be right? 8 A Yes. 9 Okay. And they gave you a 10 photo lineup of, I think, eight characters or II whatever? 12 A Yes. 13 Okay. And you were 14 required or they asked you to pick out Dorian 15 Johnson at that time? 16 A Yes. 17 Were you able to pick him 18 out at that time? 19 A I selected who I believe was Dorian 20 Johnson, they never confirmed if it was or not. 21 They never did, okay. You 22 don't know the results of that? 23 A No, I do not. 24 Okay, thank you. 25 MS. ALIZADEH: Just to be clear, you're Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 280 1 not in any way, are you? 2 A No, I'm not. 3 MS. ALIZADEH: Prior to this incident, had 4 you ever had any contact with any of the county 5 detectives that you've met throughout this 6 investigation? 7 A No, I have not. 8 Any of the agents, FBI agents or federal 9 agents involved in their investigation? 10 A No, I have not. 11 You felt like 12 your life was in jeopardy when you were sitting in 13 the vehicle? 14 A Yes. 15 You felt like when you 16 exited the vehicle and the interaction with Michael 17 Brown, he was advancing towards you, you felt like 18 your life was in jeopardy? 19 A Yes. 20 And use of deadly force 21 was justified at that point in your opinion? 22 A Yes. 23 MS. ALIZADEH: Sheila? 24 MS. WHIRLEY: I was just going, if we are 25 sort of done with your questioning, is there Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 281 i 1 something that we have not asked you that you want i 2 us to know or you think it is important for the 3 jurors to consider regarding this incident? 4 A One thing you guys haven't asked that has 5 been asked of me in other interviews is, was he a 6 threat, was Michael Brown a threat when he was 7 running away. People asked why would you chase him 8 if he was running away now. 9 I had already called for assistance. 10 If someone arrives and sees him running, another 11 officer and goes around the back half of the 12 apartment complexes and tries to stop him, what 13 would stop him from doing what he just did to me to 14 him or worse, knowing he has already done it to one 15 cop. And that was, he still posed a threat, not 16 only to me, to anybody else that confronted him. 17 MS. WHIRLEY: Any questions? 18 . Along those 19 lines, you feel like as a police officer it is your 20 obligation to follow that suspect? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 MS. ALIZADEH: All right. If that's it 23 then. 24 (End of the testimony of and 25 the testimony for September 26, 2014.) Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 282 1 2 3 State of Missouri 4 SS. 5 County of St. Louis 6 l, a Licensed Certified Court 7 Reporter by the Supreme Court in and for the State 8 of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and 9 authorized to administer oaths and to certify to 10 depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to ll Notice in the civil cause now pending and 12 undetermined in the County of St. Louis, State of 13 Missouri. 14 The said witness, being of sound mind and being 15 by the grand jury first carefully examined and duly 16 cautioned and sworn to testify to the truth, the 17 whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case 18 aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the 19 foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me 20 reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed 21 into typewriting, and that the foregoing page 22 correctly sets forth the testimony of the 23 aforementioned witness, together with the questions 24 propounded by counsel and grand jurors thereto, and 25 is in all respects a full, true, correct and Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 283 i complete transcript of the questions propounded to a and the answers given by said witness. LUMP I further certify that the foregoing pages contain a true and accurate reproduction of the proceedings. I further certify that I am not of counsel or attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not related to nor interested in any of the parties or 9 their attorneys. Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 284 COURT MEMO 2 3 4 5 State of Missouri vs. Darren Wilson 6 7 8 CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND 9 STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES 10 ll DEPOSITION OF Grand Jury, Volume 12 13 9/16/2014 14 Name and address of person or firm having custody of 15 the original transcript: 16 17 St. Louis County Prosecuting Office 18 100 South Central, 2nd floor 19 Clayton, MO 63105 2O 21 22 23 24 25 Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 285 ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT TAXED IN FAVOR OF: LUMP St. Louis County Prosecuting Office 100 South Central, 2nd floor Clayton, MO 63105 Total: Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by State of Missouri V. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume September 16, 2014 Page 286 1 Upon delivery of transcripts, the above 2 charges had not been paid. It is anticipated 3 that all charges will be paid in the normal course 4 of business. 5 GORE PERRY GATEWAY LIPA REPORTING COMPANY 6 515 Olive Street, Suite 700 7 St. Louis, Missouri 63101 8 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set 9 STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES 10 my hand and seal on this day of 11 Commission expires 12 13 Notary Public Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 Electronically signed by